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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/20/2008 10:31:30 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics allows for a local decrease in entropy, provided there is an equal or greater increase in entropy elsewhere.
When you consider the builder and the sand, the net result of the building of a sand castle is an increase in entropy. As essentialsaltes said, evolution does not require a suspension of any of the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Tat may be the 'net result', but that is not an explanation for how sandcastles arise.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/20/2008 10:49:37 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, and if you kick over a sand castle, it becomes less ordered.
And if a raindrop freezes into a snowflake, it becomes more ordered.
And if a snowflake melts into a raindrop, it becomes less ordered.
So we have established that the entropy of a non-isolated system can either increase or decrease.
Thus, getting back a bit closer to the OP, evolution does not require a suspension of this 'law' of entropy.
Not so fast there hoss.
A snowflake's crystalline structure may be the product of a localized decrease in entorpy, but a sandcastle is not - it's the product of the application of intelligence utlizing machinery to do work. The question ID asks of course, is whether there a difference in terms of the sorts of structures that result from either situation. What we need to know is, with all the energy continually being applied to beaches around the world, why don't sandcastles regularly arise as is the case wiuth snowflakes?
Snowflake formation is not a decrease in entropy. It is an increase. Heat is transfered from the water vapor. Whenever heat is transfered, entropy increases.
Entropy is not strictly the same as disorder.
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/20/2008 10:52:43 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, and if you kick over a sand castle, it becomes less ordered.
And if a raindrop freezes into a snowflake, it becomes more ordered.
And if a snowflake melts into a raindrop, it becomes less ordered.
So we have established that the entropy of a non-isolated system can either increase or decrease.
Thus, getting back a bit closer to the OP, evolution does not require a suspension of this 'law' of entropy.
Not so fast there hoss.
A snowflake's crystalline structure may be the product of a localized decrease in entorpy, but a sandcastle is not
A localized decrease in entropy is a description or result, not a cause. A decrease in air temperature can cause a snowflake, which has less entropy than the previous raindrop. A person can cause a sandcastle, which has less entropy than the previous sand.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/20/2008 10:55:07 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics allows for a local decrease in entropy, provided there is an equal or greater increase in entropy elsewhere.
When you consider the builder and the sand, the net result of the building of a sand castle is an increase in entropy. As essentialsaltes said, evolution does not require a suspension of any of the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Tat may be the 'net result', but that is not an explanation for how sandcastles arise.
That's fine. All we're establishing is that neither snowflakes nor evolution contradict the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/20/2008 11:06:41 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics allows for a local decrease in entropy, provided there is an equal or greater increase in entropy elsewhere.
When you consider the builder and the sand, the net result of the building of a sand castle is an increase in entropy. As essentialsaltes said, evolution does not require a suspension of any of the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Tat may be the 'net result', but that is not an explanation for how sandcastles arise.
You take a bucket and fill it with wet sand, then you turn the bucket upside down on the beach. Drizzle some wet sand to make towers. Use a stick or piece of shell to make designs.
Hope that explains it.
How sandcastles arise has nothing to do with the laws of thermodynamics.
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 2:34:49 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Snowflake formation is not a decrease in entropy. It is an increase. Heat is transfered from the water vapor. Whenever heat is transfered, entropy increases.
Entropy is not strictly the same as disorder.
So when a snowflake is formed, entropy is not reduced?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 2:36:10 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
That's fine. All we're establishing is that neither snowflakes nor evolution contradict the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Well, if they were thought to be the same sort of process, you might have a point.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 2:42:18 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
You take a bucket and fill it with wet sand, then you turn the bucket upside down on the beach. Drizzle some wet sand to make towers. Use a stick or piece of shell to make designs.
Hope that explains it.
Sure it does - of course I said it to begin with in Post 16.
quote:
How sandcastles arise has nothing to do with the laws of thermodynamics.
Funny - you were the one who first contended it did:
quote:
When you consider the builder and the sand, the net result of the building of a sand castle is an increase in entropy. As essentialsaltes said, evolution does not require a suspension of any of the Laws of Thermodynamics.
You need to make up your mind here, you are debating with yourself again.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 5:24:02 AM
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BVZ
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Take a person, some sand and water, and put them in a closed system. A box for instance. It will be dark in there, so you can give him a flashlight too I guess. Now he starts building a sandcastle. You can see the entropy inside the box as all the energy that can no longer be used, since you will need more energy to convert it to usable energy. For instance, the person in the box is using up the oxygen, creating CO2. He does this so that he can release energy, which he then uses to build the sandcastle. Once this is done, some of it will be in the form of CO2 floating around, and some as heat. The grains stacked on top of each other will have more potential energy as well.
The amount of energy that is made unavailable by the system (sancastle builder) is the entropy. Can you see that the heat energy, potential energy in the sand, and the heated up air inside the box can no longer be used by the system?
That is all the second law of thermodynamics is talking about. In a closed system, the total amount of energy that is no longer available to the system can only increase.
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 7:38:41 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You take a bucket and fill it with wet sand, then you turn the bucket upside down on the beach. Drizzle some wet sand to make towers. Use a stick or piece of shell to make designs.
Hope that explains it.
Sure it does - of course I said it to begin with in Post 16.
quote:
How sandcastles arise has nothing to do with the laws of thermodynamics.
Funny - you were the one who first contended it did:
quote:
When you consider the builder and the sand, the net result of the building of a sand castle is an increase in entropy. As essentialsaltes said, evolution does not require a suspension of any of the Laws of Thermodynamics.
You need to make up your mind here, you are debating with yourself again.
How they arise has nothing to do with thermodynamics. No matter how they arise, there is an increase in entropy.
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 9:58:12 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That's fine. All we're establishing is that neither snowflakes nor evolution contradict the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Well, if they were thought to be the same sort of process, you might have a point.
Thermodynamics may not be a fruitful way to treat evolution, but it is drmark who insists on doing so. Insofar as these processes are thermodynamic processes, they are closely analogous, and neither contradicts the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 11:21:36 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
How they arise has nothing to do with thermodynamics. No matter how they arise, there is an increase in entropy.
So now you are saying entropy has nothing to do with thermodynamics?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 11:23:29 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Thermodynamics may not be a fruitful way to treat evolution, but it is drmark who insists on doing so. Insofar as these processes are thermodynamic processes, they are closely analogous, and neither contradicts the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
In actuality it may have nothing to do with evolution (particularly as that process is questionable to begin with) but it would seem to have relevance to the origin of life from non-living matter.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 11:25:41 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Take a person, some sand and water, and put them in a closed system. A box for instance. It will be dark in there, so you can give him a flashlight too I guess. Now he starts building a sandcastle. You can see the entropy inside the box as all the energy that can no longer be used, since you will need more energy to convert it to usable energy. For instance, the person in the box is using up the oxygen, creating CO2. He does this so that he can release energy, which he then uses to build the sandcastle. Once this is done, some of it will be in the form of CO2 floating around, and some as heat. The grains stacked on top of each other will have more potential energy as well.
The amount of energy that is made unavailable by the system (sancastle builder) is the entropy. Can you see that the heat energy, potential energy in the sand, and the heated up air inside the box can no longer be used by the system?
That is all the second law of thermodynamics is talking about. In a closed system, the total amount of energy that is no longer available to the system can only increase.
Sure; now build that sandcastle applying the same energy in some form, absent a mind and machinery.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 11:55:50 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1062
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Thermodynamics may not be a fruitful way to treat evolution, but it is drmark who insists on doing so. Insofar as these processes are thermodynamic processes, they are closely analogous, and neither contradicts the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
In actuality it may have nothing to do with evolution (particularly as that process is questionable to begin with) but it would seem to have relevance to the origin of life from non-living matter.
That's right. Previously, we established that the entropy of a non-isolated system can either increase or decrease. Therefore, thermodynamics does not preclude abiogenesis.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 11:59:26 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
How they arise has nothing to do with thermodynamics. No matter how they arise, there is an increase in entropy.
So now you are saying entropy has nothing to do with thermodynamics?
No.  ...
That's not what I'm saying at all. Read my post again. If you still don't understand, I'll try to reword it for you.
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 12:00:54 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
That's right. Previously, we established that the entropy of a non-isolated system can either increase or decrease. Therefore, thermodynamics does not preclude abiogenesis.
Well, to whatever degree one thinks evolution occurs, it occurs within the already extant machinery of the cell.
And as we have established with sand castles, which a magnitudes less complex than living cells, energy alone isn't sufficient.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 12:07:36 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
That's not what I'm saying at all. Read my post again. If you still don't understand, I'll try to reword it for you.
Well if there is increase in entropy, wouldn't that be a thermodynamic measure?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 4:22:27 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That's not what I'm saying at all. Read my post again. If you still don't understand, I'll try to reword it for you.
Well if there is increase in entropy, wouldn't that be a thermodynamic measure?
Yes.
According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics there is no process that results in a decrease in entropy. This holds whether a mind, machine, mechanism, any, all or none is involved. This includes, but is not limited to, the processes of evolution and the building of sand castles.
If anyone is under the impression that evolution has a problem with the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that person does not understand evolution or thermodynamics or both.
Entropy never decreases.
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 4:24:12 PM
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DanJames
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Why are we comparing snowflakes with sandcastles? A snowflake forms because water settles into the lowest energy state as it looses energy. That energy state is a crystal because water is a polar molecule. It would require more energy for water to exist in a non-crystalline structure than a crystalline one. Does that make it a decrease of entropy? (seriously I don't know) Sand does not settle into sandcastles as a result of any energy state.
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 4:26:25 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That's not what I'm saying at all. Read my post again. If you still don't understand, I'll try to reword it for you.
Well if there is increase in entropy, wouldn't that be a thermodynamic measure?
Yes.
According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics there is no process that results in a decrease in entropy. This holds whether a mind, machine, mechanism, any, all or none is involved. This includes, but is not limited to, the processes of evolution and the building of sand castles.
If anyone is under the impression that evolution has a problem with the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that person does not understand evolution or thermodynamics or both.
Entropy never decreases.
So at some point in time in a child's brain, the lowest energy state necessitates that he model moist sand into a pattern resembling Prince Charming's Palace?
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 4:45:49 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Yes.
According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics there is no process that results in a decrease in entropy. This holds whether a mind, machine, mechanism, any, all or none is involved. This includes, but is not limited to, the processes of evolution and the building of sand castles.
If anyone is under the impression that evolution has a problem with the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that person does not understand evolution or thermodynamics or both.
Entropy never decreases.
So when talkorigins explains:
Entropy may therefore decrease locally on the Earth as long as the entropy of the Earth's environment (which includes the rest of the universe) increases by an equal or greater amount. This is in fact what happens, and it happens regularly. When a snowflake forms, its entropy is reduced at the expense of a greater increase in the entropy of its environment. None of this violates the second law of thermodynamics. As the FAQ on the Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution and Probability clearly illustrates, the second law does not make evolution impossible.
They are wrong to say that 'entropy may therefore decrease...'?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 4:49:55 PM
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DanJames
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I don't think we are all working on the same definition of entropy. Is entropy the increase of disorder, or the movement of energy from a higher energy state to a lower energy state?
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 4:59:43 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
They are wrong to say that 'entropy may therefore decrease...'?
No. This is why the distinction of an isolated or closed system is so important to correctly understanding the 2nd Law.
Veritas did not explicitly state it, but meant that in an isolated system the total entropy always increases. T.O. confirms that by noting that any local decrease in entropy is more than made up for by the increase in entropy in its environment (from which it is not isolated). Combined together, the sum total change in the entropy increases.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Uniformitarianism - 8/21/2008 5:02:45 PM
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