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[Poll]
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Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness?
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| disease |
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| addiction |
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| weakness |
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| all three |
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| none of the above |
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Total Votes : 59
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(last vote on : 10/6/2008 8:29:54 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/22/2008 9:54:46 PM
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phosadaud
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I don't have to have cancer to walk through it with someone, see with my own eyes, listen to their hurts, feel their loss, see their fear, comfort their pain, etc. I may not be able to 100% know exactly how they feel, but that doesn't mean I'm a mindless geek who knows nothing and is clueless so stop with the attitude please.
I mean really, how can you know what I do or don't know. You have no idea what my experiences are, what I have seen, what I have listened to, what I have walked through.
And if I supposedly know absolutely nothing about alcoholism, how can you be an expert on what it is to not have been down that road? Since, apparently the ONLY way to know anything is to physically experience it? 
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/22/2008 10:02:16 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
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quote:
I don't have to have cancer to walk through it with someone, see with my own eyes, listen to their hurts, feel their loss, see their fear, comfort their pain, etc. I may not be able to 100% know exactly how they feel, but that doesn't mean I'm a mindless geek who knows nothing and is clueless so stop with the attitude please.
I mean really, how can you know what I do or don't know. You have no idea what my experiences are, what I have seen, what I have listened to, what I have walked through.
And if I supposedly know absolutely nothing about alcoholism, how can you be an expert on what it is to not have been down that road? Since, apparently the ONLY way to know anything is to physically experience it?
You seemed to genuinely be asking questions to understand. I have genuinely tried to explain/ describe what it is like. I didn't presume to know you know anything or don't know anything.
Defensiveness is not necessary here. I'm not here to try to make you feel like you don't know anything.
I'm only explaining things the best way I know how to. If you already know these things, why are you asking? Why ask and I answer and then you tell me you already know this stuff?
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/22/2008 10:40:44 PM
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phosadaud
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The only questions I recall asking were trying to understand what you were saying because I wasn't following you. When I did I ask what it's like to be alcoholic? Or about alcoholism?
Now I'm even more confused. Not about alcoholism but what you are saying... I'm sorry, but you aren't making any sense.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 5:59:33 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
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I'm going to let let post 102 stand and leave it alone.
ETA: I thought further about this and decide to add:
quote:
And if I supposedly know absolutely nothing about alcoholism, how can you be an expert on what it is to not have been down that road?
I have been on both sides of the fence. The not understanding why my brother could do the things he did, why he couldn't stop, why he continued to torture and torment me and my parents, ect.
I've already stated that it's very different than being a spectator.
I responded to your post # 98. You response was based on my prior comment about re learning how to live. "Non-alcoholics understand that quite well." If you understand that quite well, then you understand that the choice factor was removed from our lives.
Your replies thus far indicate that is not what you understand. It is a misinformed opinion. Your arguments are based on your opinions. Mine are based on factual experiences.
I don't understand why it's important to you to argue about this. You have a right to believe what you want to believe. I have no need to convince otherwise or beat my head against a wall going in circles with you.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 8/23/2008 7:18:15 AM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 11:25:19 AM
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phosadaud
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How do you know my arguments are based just on opinions?
And I'm sorry, but you honestly really confuse me and I'm not easily confused.
As far as why argue, well, when someone presents themselves as knowing it all and anyone who disagrees knows nothing, I take exception to that.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 11:46:01 AM
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humbleinspirit
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I believe that the 12-steps apply to any addiction and can be related to Alcoholism also.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 12:31:31 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
As far as why argue, well, when someone presents themselves as knowing it all and anyone who disagrees knows nothing, I take exception to that.
Please demonstrate your knowledge of alcoholism.
If you are hearing a know it all attitude, you are hearing what you want to hear.
What I am hearing from you, is someone who wants to argue. Not someone who wants to understand any better. If you have a full comprehension of alcoholism, there are many things you would not have said. That is evidence enough that you don't understand this disease. looking it up on the computer doesn't qualify it as knowledge either.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 12:39:30 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Please demonstrate your knowledge of alcoholism.
I have family who have battled alcoholism. I have dear friends who have battled alcoholism. I have dear friends who are leaders in 12 Step ministries (and former alcoholics themselves). I minored in psychology. I have studied up on it (not online by the way). Etc, etc, etc. I know you think none of that counts since apparently anyone who is an alcoholic apparently can't know anything, but there you go.
quote:
If you are hearing a know it all attitude, you are hearing what you want to hear.
Um. You even said that your way is the only way and anyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't know.
quote:
What I am hearing from you, is someone who wants to argue. Not someone who wants to understand any better. If you have a full comprehension of alcoholism, there are many things you would not have said. That is evidence enough that you don't understand this disease. looking it up on the computer doesn't qualify it as knowledge either.
What you are hearing from me is someone who disagrees with you and is trying to have a discussion (forums are a place to discuss you know). And what things would I have not said if a "really" understood alcoholism? I haven't said one thing that my alcoholic family and friends have said.
Just because someone has a different take on something does not mean they are clueless. It just means they have a different take on something and different experiences.
And being an alcoholic does not mean you can speak for all alcoholics. People become alcoholic for many reasons and people recover in many ways.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 12:47:05 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Um. You even said that your way is the only way and anyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't know.
Show me where.
quote:
What you are hearing from me is someone who disagrees with you and is trying to have a discussion (forums are a place to discuss you know).
And that's fine when it is done with out defense and personal attack. Personal attack means someone is losing the argument and that would be there way of gaining a foothold.
quote:
And being an alcoholic does not mean you can speak for all alcoholics
I have not said I speak for all alcoholics, ever.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 1:00:22 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
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quote:
I have family who have battled alcoholism. I have dear friends who have battled alcoholism. I have dear friends who are leaders in 12 Step ministries (and former alcoholics themselves). I minored in psychology. I have studied up on it (not online by the way). Etc, etc, etc. I know you think none of that counts since apparently anyone who is an alcoholic apparently can't know anything, but there you go.
You helped me make one of my points right here^
Is a passenger who sits next to the co-pilot of a plane, who has watched, studied books and befriended the pilot, but has never flown, really know what it's like to fly a plane? Would you trust that person to give you life saving information in an emergency while flying?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 2:17:28 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Um. You even said that your way is the only way and anyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't know.
Show me where.
Here is one:
quote:
quote:
(me) I'm still confused. I'm trying to understand what you are saying here. You really don't believe that your way is the only way do you?
(you) For a solid sobriety, yes, I do.
And another:
quote:
quote:
(me) Because there is no cookie cutter approach to alcoholism. It'd be great if there was, but there simply isn't.
(you) Not to alcoholism, to recovery.
And we could go on.
quote:
What you are hearing from me is someone who disagrees with you and is trying to have a discussion (forums are a place to discuss you know).
And that's fine when it is done with out defense and personal attack. Personal attack means someone is losing the argument and that would be there way of gaining a foothold.
Where did I personally attack you?
quote:
quote:
And being an alcoholic does not mean you can speak for all alcoholics
I have not said I speak for all alcoholics, ever.
But you seem to know the only way for alcoholics to ever recover. Is that not speaking for all alcoholics?
quote:
Is a passenger who sits next to the co-pilot of a plane, who has watched, studied books and befriended the pilot, but has never flown, really know what it's like to fly a plane? Would you trust that person to give you life saving information in an emergency while flying?
Would you trust a doctor to treat you for cancer if that doctor had never had cancer?
And yes, even if a person had never flown a plane, but had studied much, I would trust that they would know some life-saving info that could save me and others in an emergency.
I don't have to personally experience putting my hand on a hot burner to know that if I do, it will be really hot and hurt and burn my hand.
And, you haven't answered my question so I'll repost it:
quote:
What things would I have not said if a "really" understood alcoholism?
Instead of just telling me I can't know what I'm talking about and I'm wrong, why don't you discuss what you think I'm saying is wrong and why. I don't learn by someone I don't know telling me I'm wrong. I learn by discussion and discussing why you disagree with me and what you feel is an incorrect assumption.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 2:28:24 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
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quote:
Instead of just telling me I can't know what I'm talking about and I'm wrong, why don't you discuss what you think I'm saying is wrong and why. I don't learn by someone I don't know telling me I'm wrong. I learn by discussion and discussing why you disagree with me and what you feel is an incorrect assumption.
I already did when you said it was a choice. If the person has the choice to drink or not, they are not an alcoholic.
And to you other arguments, if you put my words in the context that they were used, it is easy to tell that I was not doing as you suggest.
Yes, I would trust a cancer doctor who has not had cancer to treat me.
I would not/ did not trust the doctors who were not alcoholics. Why? Because of exactly what we are doing right now. A doctor who wants to help, will listen to the complaint, get to the root of the problem. Not offer pills and tell you that it's all your fault because you made bad choices.
I'm not saying that, that's not what happened, but an alcoholic speaking to another alcoholic understands where the other is coming from.
Alcoholics don't necessarily, know from the get go that their initial decision to take that first drink was a bad one. Hindsight is always 20/20.
ETA for spelling
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 2:48:28 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Instead of just telling me I can't know what I'm talking about and I'm wrong, why don't you discuss what you think I'm saying is wrong and why. I don't learn by someone I don't know telling me I'm wrong. I learn by discussion and discussing why you disagree with me and what you feel is an incorrect assumption.
I already did when you said it was a choice. If the person has the choice to drink or not, they are not an alcoholic.
I think you are misunderstanding what I've posted.
When I was discussing choice, I am referring to the fact that we all make choices. For instance, I had a dear friend in college who was struggling with this very thing. One thing I told her was that anytime she felt overwhelmed and like she couldn't say no, to come over to my apartment day or night and we would talk, pray, whatever and she could stay as long as she needed to. One night at about 2am, I got that knock on my door. I let her in and we talked, prayed and I got her some blankets and pillows and she stayed the night. You might say she didn't have a choice, but to me that exactly what she did - she made a choice to say that she couldn't handle something on her own and needed help and she chose to seek that help. The fact is, not even AA will work if folks don't CHOOSE to get that help. Someone will never combat alcoholism if they don't want to combat alcoholism. Period.
quote:
And to you other arguments, if you put my words in the context that they were used, it is easy to tell that I was not doing as you suggest.
No matter how many times I've read them (in context), I'm getting the same thing out of them so I guess I really don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm not trying to be argumentative - I genuinely don't know what else you could be saying.
quote:
Yes, I would trust a cancer doctor who has not had cancer to treat me.
I would not/ did not trust the doctors who were not alcoholics. Why? Because of exactly what we are doing right now. A doctor who wants to help, will listen to them complaint, get to the root of the problem. Not offer pills and tell you that it's all your fault because you made bad choices.
First, I didn't say that one should go to a doctor to treat alcoholism. I was making an analogy, I am simply saying that one does not have to be alcoholic to know about alcoholism. We have a 12 Step ministry at my church. Some of the leaders are former addicts, some aren't. And to be honest, the one who is most knowledgeable and has made the biggest difference in the lives of those coming out of addictions is not an alcoholic and yet she is still making a huge difference in people's lives. Personally, I believe that both are import - "outsiders" can see things from a different perspective and that can be a good thing. I know in my own life, sometimes I get a colored perspective on things simply because my emotional investment in something has somewhat colored my perspective and I can't see everything.
quote:
I'm not saying that, that's not what happened, but an alcoholic speaking to another alcoholic understands where the other is coming from.
I fully understand (more than you know) that personal experience gives special insight into struggles. That does not mean that if one does not have personal experience, one cannot know about something.
quote:
Alcoholics don't necessarily, know from the get go that their initial decision to take that first drink was a bad one. Hindsight is always 20/20.
I didn't say otherwise. This is true in most things. That doesn't mean something wasn't a mistake or something wasn't wrong, but most of us rarely do anything knowing the pain it will lead to no matter what that decision is.
I have a friend who has spent years struggling with an addiction to prescription pain pills. It didn't start out as a bad thing - she was given the prescription for a legitimate injury. Then she got addicted and her entire life was thrown into turmoil because of it. Even if it wasn't necessarily her "fault" that she got addicted, the decisions she made because of that (the stealing, the lying, the abuse, etc) were still wrong. God didn't say sin is ok if you have to suffer to do what's right. Sin is sin.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 3:14:59 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
The fact is, not even AA will work if folks don't CHOOSE to get that help. Someone will never combat alcoholism if they don't want to combat alcoholism. Period.
I agree with this 100%.
quote:
First, I didn't say that one should go to a doctor to treat alcoholism.
I wasn't trying to imply that you did say this. I was simply putting it in the context of a recovery standpoint. Treatment centers do this, families do this, etc. It's a personal opinion completely on my part.
quote:
Some of the leaders are former addicts, some aren't. And to be honest, the one who is most knowledgeable and has made the biggest difference in the lives of those coming out of addictions is not an alcoholic and yet she is still making a huge difference in people's lives. Personally, I believe that both are import - "outsiders" can see things from a different perspective and that can be a good thing.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that non-alcoholics can't make a difference. Some can. I have seen non-alcoholics work with alcoholics and addicts and done serious damage because they didn't understand what they were dealing with. I've also seen serious damage done(by the a & a) to the non-alcoholics that were serving them.
I guess my concern here is alcoholics and addicts are dangerous and unpredictable people while actively using. For a person to claim they have knowledge of addiction isn't enough. I say this as a warning. I have seen people with the best intentions who think they are armed with information, bust out and step forward to help the wayward. They had no preparation for what they dove into. They were chewed up and spit out.
I don't enjoy seeing good intentioned people duped by addicts of any kind. The truth is, it happens all the time. One of my good friends "helps" addicts. She thinks because she used drugs for a short time in her late teens, not that she's 42, she knows all about addiction. She thinks she's helping them when they begin withdrawals by taking them to get more, "just to ease it a little". I get absolutely furious at her for helping them continue to kill themselves. They have stolen from her, beat her up etc, all because "she knows what she's dealing with". She hasn't figured out yet, that they will just as soon kill you as look at you when they a jonesing. She doesn't know how to help them get sober. There is a difference between sobriety and the absence of alcohol. (That was one of the things you questioned, I think)
Now I've lost my train of thought and probably ranted too long anyways.
Thank you for explaining and taking the time to explain. I hope that I have done a better job of that myself and not confused you even further. Maybe I answered some why's for you.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 3:28:15 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17145
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
Oh, I just read this somewhere else but it fits here, Quoting Sharon-Marie about a different issue entirely:
quote:
There's an old saying in Twelfth Step Recovery Groups . . . "Principles before Personalities" . . . which basically means to discuss the actual issue; don't make it about the person. My word; it's amazing what one finds tucked in a thread somewhere. 
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ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
The principals before personalities does not mean it's making it about the person. That's not at all what I said; in fact, I said it was about intentionally not making "something" about the person (as in purposing to discuss an issue and not the person or people behind an issue).
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It means we hold our principals above anyone's personality because there are a vast number of personalities with a working group conscience. It also means what I said . . . that on any given "issue", one should stick to the issue and not make it "personal" against someone. For example, specific to this thread, there is a huge difference between someone saying, "Mortimer is an alcoholic and I abhor alcoholism" versus "I abhor Mortimer; he's an alcoholic" . . . ergo, Principles before Personalities.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I honestly couldn't tell what you meant, only the quote was provided. No harm meant, I just wanted to clarify the meaning as it pertained to this thread, that's all. 
Sorry, I was way too busy to get in here yesterday.
When I read Sharon-Marie's quote, and how I think it relates to this thread, is that this thread is a general discussion about Alcoholism. When I quoted that the other day the thread was turning into All about DeliverDarling, that you were right and nobody else was because of your experience.(in the above quote the highlight is mine) The thread has turned from Principles of Alcoholism to the Personality (experiences) of DD.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I don't intend on going around and around trying to convince anybody that my way is what is best. Even though I believe that, some things just have to be experienced to be proven true. 
Yeah
Like in the one stop divorce threads, we have rules that one cannot discuss their divorce because it's not about their divorce, it's about the topic of divorce. When one brings up their experience then defensiveness creeps in.
DD, your experience is yours and no one else will experience it. The way you chose to recovery was right for you.
But this thread is not about your specific journey or recovery. It's about the general concept, is alcohol a weakness, or is it an addiction or disease?
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 3:46:22 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
quote
Yeah
Like in the one stop divorce threads, we have rules that one cannot discuss their divorce because it's not about their divorce, it's about the topic of divorce. When one brings up their experience then defensiveness creeps in.
DD, your experience is yours and no one else will experience it. The way you chose to recovery was right for you.
But this thread is not about your specific journey or recovery. It's about the general concept, is alcohol a weakness, or is it an addiction or disease?
I am posting this under the assumption that this is not a moderate warning but as a participation post:
Ouch, that stung Kathy. It was not my intent to turn it in to a thread about my experience. If my experiences as it is my understanding of alcoholism is offensive, my apologies. If I talk about alcoholism in general, it has already been deemed that I speak for all alcoholics.
So maybe I just shouldn't participate in threads I have any knowledge of because of my experiences, because it just might turn into another thread about me, if no one else decides to participate in it? Or two people have a discussion trying to understand the other's view point, even if it takes awhile?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 3:55:17 PM
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Kath
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quote:
I am posting this under the assumption that this is not a moderate warning but as a participation post:
I would have sent it privately along with the do not reply if it was.
I am not saying you should not participate, but you seem to have this attitude of your right and that's it. As Phosey outlined, you have post after post where you are saying you're right and that's it. I've reread them too and I just don't read them any other way.
I have a wedding to go to so I won't be back for hours. That is what I like about forums though, the response is waiting when I get back.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/23/2008 4:07:13 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
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Privately would have been better, as offensive as that was. You say that you re read, apparently you missed the dozen or so responses of mine that indicated that my way is not the only way, but it is my preference and recommendation. You missed the one where I even conceded it was not the only way.
It doesn't matter. Discuss away!
ETA: Come to think about it, this being a Christian Forum, I would think that Jesus being the solution would be the best way advocated, whether I claim it as my way or not.
See post #'s 18,20,25,34,63(reread that one please),78.
So if you want to know if I stand by my way being the best way meaning the spiritual solution (Jesus) then yes, I do.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 8/23/2008 4:28:43 PM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/26/2008 1:03:30 PM
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edgibson
Posts: 145
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Umm, not looking to get my head typed off here, but, the topic of the post is not about the best solution.
It is about whether alcoholism is a disease, an addiction, or a weakness.
The arguments of late remind me of a Star Trek movie. "Are you telling me that I have to die before you can discuss death with me?"
I would have to say that someone who has never taken a drink in their lives can still be very knowledgeable about alcoholism. Just as someone who has never used heroin can be very knowledgeable of heroin addiction.
To stretch the pilot metaphor just a hair further... The gentlemen who built and flew the first airplane were not pilots, yet. But they were sure very knowledgeable of airplanes and their operation.
I guess the main confusion for me is, if AA is the only way to "true soberiety", how was AA started but by non-alcoholoics? And if not, how did the first alcoholics break the addiction without AA?
I am not attempting to be a smart-alek but it does beg the question.
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Where are we going?
And why are we in this handbasket?
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/26/2008 1:30:14 PM
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