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[Poll]
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Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness?
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| addiction |
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| weakness |
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| all three |
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| none of the above |
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Total Votes : 59
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(last vote on : 10/6/2008 8:29:54 PM)
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:13:20 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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Yes thank you very much
Drugs are inanimate objects, he added, and "no drug can cause addiction." Drugs can be good or bad: "it all depends on how you use them." Put simply, "anyone can stop or moderate their use of addictive drugs anytime they want to." Individuals who are diagnosed as involuntarily addicted that "they can control themselves and their lives, that they have the power to renounce an old addiction if they want to."
"The chemical effects are not controversial... the controversy is how drugs get into the body." Focus on the "behaviour of addiction," not "what drugs do to the brain." What happens once a person puts drugs into his or her body is irrelevant to the fact that the person still retains control over whether to take drugs.
"Addiction means you like to do something," he said. Thus, the key element of the addiction is the behavioural choice, not the object of the addiction.
Thank you Manda59 for getting what it is that I have been trying to say straight off. And I really like how you word your posts it shows patience and intelligence, so you have a lot going for you!
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
_____________________________
You will find as you look back upon your life
that the moments when you have really lived,
are the moments when you have done things in the spirit of Love.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:16:39 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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Sorry Manda I haven't quite got the hang of replying to the right post as yet. I was reading one of the early posts here on addiction and I thought that the eloquent way that you worded your post showed a lot of common sense, just wanted to affirm that to you.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
_____________________________
You will find as you look back upon your life
that the moments when you have really lived,
are the moments when you have done things in the spirit of Love.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:21:39 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
What happens once a person puts drugs into his or her body is irrelevant to the fact that the person still retains control over whether to take drugs.
"Addiction means you like to do something," he said. Thus, the key element of the addiction is the behavioural choice, not the object of the addiction.
I still, from personal, not academic, experience, disagree. "Like" has nothing to do with addiction. Addiction is done because the body's changed chemistry demands the substance just to function normally. The substance is taken without much conscious intent, it just takes it.
Becoming an addict was my fault and getting free was my responsibility. But, once addicted, the substance had the control - until, by the grace of God, I consciously chose to break free.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:29:20 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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Yes and I know of nothing more self-defeating than waking up every day recover ING and never actually becoming recovered. It is as self defeating as being told that you are totally powerless over your addiction that if you don't work the steps you will either face jails, institutions or death!
Work the steps or die they say!
Too many times I have seen and experienced myself the power of self-fulfilling prophecies regarding the above, the AAer or NAer believes whole heartedly that if they relapse again they will surely lose control and so what happens they lose control and end up losing everything, sometimes even their lives.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
_____________________________
You will find as you look back upon your life
that the moments when you have really lived,
are the moments when you have done things in the spirit of Love.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:31:54 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Ok Jimbo, so I am taking it that you never ever made a conscious choice to use and to keep using, it was so much second nature to you that you brain neurons didn't even fire up over it. You didn't exercise the free will that God gave you so what it must have been Satan tricking you into it I guess? Shame on you a big boy who doesn't even realise his life is determined by the choices that he makes.
Yeah well that makes so much sense, NOT.
My daughter is a couple of years older than you and, even as a teen, never talked down to me like that. I assue it's the charm you use in dealing with addicts. I'm just glad I was back in control before we met.
If your premise above were true, and it's not, then the rarest thing on the planet would be an addict suffering extreme health effects from a substance because they'd just stop instead if begging for help.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:33:09 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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I am nearly done with you, even if you know you are wrong I can't ever seeing you admitting it.
I repeat addiction is BEHAVIOURAL. Therefore cannot possibly be a disease that robs you of all of your God given abilities to rationalise and yes consciously and repeatedly ingest an illegal substance time after time after time.
"Human beings are moral agents... choice is what distinguishes us."
Regards,
~angelbite~
_____________________________
You will find as you look back upon your life
that the moments when you have really lived,
are the moments when you have done things in the spirit of Love.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:34:59 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
...the AAer or NAer believes...
One again, with feeling:
I have never had anything to do with the AA or NA or any 12 step program. Okie dokie? When I talk, I'm talking personal experience and God's grace - not anybody else's program, web site, or nifty book of theory.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:37:19 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2954
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
Status: offline
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Actually Angelbite, AA does not say that if you don't work the steps then you will be institutionalized or die, they say "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" the word "Power" is capitalized because they are referring to God. I had to respond to that because I don't want people who don't know about AA to get the wrong impression from you.
_____________________________
-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:37:30 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: angelbite
I am nearly done with you...
Why, thank you young lady. I'll take my meds now and shuffle off to my room...
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:38:23 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6045
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: angelbite
Thank you Manda59 for getting what it is that I have been trying to say straight off.
Maybe it's because Poms and Aussies are more alike in how we express ourselves!! I think it's probably that there are less likely to be semantics problems when we communicate.
Btw to reply to a post and quote the post in your post, just click quote before you click reply, and it will be all there for you, all you then have to do it edit it as you wish.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:39:20 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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It all depends on the value that they place on addiction, the cost/benefit ratio that one applies to their addiction.
One can be in the vise like grip of addiction for everyone to see yet still not feel that the negatives outweigh the positives that they receive from the drug.
When it becomes too painful and the cost/benefit ratio doesn't add up any more you can be sure that the addict will stop what he is doing. Addicts are notorious for being selfish and self absorbed people they aren't going to do anything that they don't want to do.
I could care less how your daughter talks to you, do you think you should be paid special dues because of your age, lol?
I simply call it like I see it, sorry you don't like it Pops, maybe you should pull your head in.
Regards,
~angelbite~
_____________________________
You will find as you look back upon your life
that the moments when you have really lived,
are the moments when you have done things in the spirit of Love.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:42:16 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9949
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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I am not going to join this conversation but angelbite you may want to be carefu. One of the moderators told everyone not to be rude to you. Pleases don't turn the tables now.
_____________________________
A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:44:30 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17147
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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angelbite
I have sent you two PMs. I suggest you read them before responding further.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation as to why one cannot confront a moderator directly.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:47:04 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6045
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I still, from personal, not academic, experience, disagree. "Like" has nothing to do with addiction.
I disagree. Addiction happens where the person is addicted to how they feel. Someone who is addicted to one substance is actually likely to be addicted to other things, people etc. Here is an example: there is someone living locallly to us who is a heroin addict. When he was off heroin, he was into food in a big way. With bread, he could not just eat one or two slices with his meal, he'd eat ten or fifteen. Anything and anyone that made him feel good, he was addicted to.
True freedom can only come when the Lord delivers them from their addiction to their feelings, and they allow Him to meet their deepest needs, rather than looking to other stuff and themselves to do that.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 3:52:33 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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Thank you Mrs X but I beg to differ with you, you are indeed correct in what you say. but also AA and not so much NA definitely do preach WORK THE STEPS OR DIE. They are assured in the meetings and the literature the only way is to admit powerlessness and then come to believe in a Power greater than themselves to restore them to sanity.
That Power can be anything that they feel they want it to be, I have heard in the room people say that the fellowship itself is the Power greater than themselves and I have even heard of a woman claiming a doorknob as her Higher Power. I wonder what happens when she has to start praying to that doorknob and if it does much for her?
The Fellowship is essentially Religious in nature as has been decided by the United States Supreme Court but there are definitely no hard and fast rules about what that Power can be.
The program aims to get its members to believe in God which I believe is a good thing but too often I have heard the above and oh yes even a beach can be some one's higher power. If anybody is going to get the wrong idea of AA it will most certainly be from you I am afraid. My God is not one of powerlessness and timidity, He is a great God able to do anything, if you think He delights in seeing man made in His image admit powerlessness and defeat well then we have got two very different idea of what it is all about.
Regards,
~angelbite~
_____________________________
You will find as you look back upon your life
that the moments when you have really lived,
are the moments when you have done things in the spirit of Love.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 4:04:08 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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Ok I happen to like it on this forum and I love the chat room, Jimbo I would greatly appreciate it if we could possibly learn to tolerate each other's existence here and I do apologise to everyone for getting hot under the collar... I guess I never thought I would be attacked so vehemently and so quickly on a Christian forum... This angel isn't biting any more so lets just leave it.
I have sent you two PMs. I suggest you read them before responding further.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
_____________________________
You will find as you look back upon your life
that the moments when you have really lived,
are the moments when you have done things in the spirit of Love.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 4:26:29 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2954
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
Status: offline
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quote:
A.A. is a program of total abstinence. Members simply stay away from one drink, one day at a time. Sobriety is maintained through sharing experience, strength and hope at group meetings and through the suggested Twelve Steps for recovery from alcoholism.
That's from one of their pamphlets, except I underlined one word.
You are right about some members picking wacky higher powers. You are also right about AA being religious in nature. Bill and Lois W. were Lutheran. If you read Bill W.'s bio, he based the 12 Steps on Biblical principles. That is not very well-known so as not to turn off non-religious people from reaching out for help.
quote:
My God is not one of powerlessness and timidity, He is a great God able to do anything, if you think He delights in seeing man made in His image admit powerlessness and defeat well then we have got two very different idea of what it is all about.
You know, Moses was not a very confident guy without God. Esther wasn't really either. They were both afraid, and yes powerless without Him.
_____________________________
-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 4:39:54 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I still, from personal, not academic, experience, disagree. "Like" has nothing to do with addiction.
I disagree. Addiction happens where the person is addicted to how they feel. Someone who is addicted to one substance is actually likely to be addicted to other things, people etc. Here is an example: there is someone living locallly to us who is a heroin addict. When he was off heroin, he was into food in a big way. With bread, he could not just eat one or two slices with his meal, he'd eat ten or fifteen. Anything and anyone that made him feel good, he was addicted to.
"When he was off heroin..."
It's not a matter of exchanging one addiction for another, at least in my experience and those I've talked with. When he was off heroin, his normal senses were alive again and food tasted great for the first time in years. Plus, eating was likely something to distract urges for the drug. Long after physical withdrawal, mental triggers happen a lot in the early stages and even long after that - recovering addicts may drink coffee, chew gum, exercise, eat food, or anything to distract themselves when a mental urge strikes.
Again, as a recovering addict, using the substance had lost any real pleasure LONG, LONG before I seriously decided to quit. It kept withdrawals away, but feeling good - getting any kind of high - was no longer the driving force for using.
quote:
True freedom can only come when the Lord delivers them from their addiction to their feelings, and they allow Him to meet their deepest needs, rather than looking to other stuff and themselves to do that.
No argument with that at all.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 5:04:02 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17147
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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angelbite
An email has been sent to your account. If you did not receive it please contact community@salemwebnetwork.com
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation of this policy.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/2/2008 5:07:59 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
If you read Bill W.'s bio, he based the 12 Steps on Biblical principles. That is not very well-known so as not to turn off non-religious people from reaching out for help.
The 12 steps are based on biblical principals. That's why the solution is called a "spiritual solution". The whole program itself focuses on eliminating character defects that contribute to the addiction. It is not based on the power of self, but on the willingness to surrender to God or whatever a person chooses to call their Higher Power.
Bill W. was a Jew and traditional religion did not appeal to him, but the spiritual remedy WORKED for him. It was through his understanding of the Power behind the principals that encouraged him to write it so that others could benefit as well.
If a person could just stop using drugs or alcohol, there wouldn't be a need for any programs or the need to rely on a Higher Power. We are all fallen people and have a need for God. He is the Solution and the answer. The programs help people to find Him either for the very first time or to become re-acquainted with Him after years of rejection.
Many lives have been saved because of the program of AA and NA and I don't just mean saved as in live to see another day. I mean the true salvation experience of knowing their Creator and trusting their very lives with Him.
We are powerless without Jesus Christ. If we have any power what so ever, It is because He has given it to us. To say that we are powerful, is to deny that He is Lord.
If we are sober, it is because of His Grace and nothing we have done on our own.
As of September, I have been sober for 6 years. Not by my power but by the Grace of God alone. He has delivered me. I do not attend AA, I did but quit going after the first year. The principals are still very much ingrained in me and driven home by the Word of God.
To Him be all the Glory!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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