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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/23/2008 3:13:24 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4470
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
I find it disturbing that the pastor knows how much you give. You could always give in cash so they don't know
It is very disturbing! Unethical.
I don't think it is always necessary to give in cash. The treasurer of the church is the only one who should know who is giving what (if the giving is done with checks or marked envelopes).
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/23/2008 3:20:34 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1908
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quote:
Oh, I definitely agree that we should never just leave our church in anger. We will need to have an honest discussion with our pastor and express our hearts to him. We cannot do it in anger. An offense has definitely taken place, but yes LiveLoved has made several good points that I do agree with. Just because we're angry doesn't mean that we can throw away the standards that the Lord has given all Christians. We should be able to tell our pastor that we were offended and why were were offended and hurt. The only fear is that he normally doesn't receive this kind of feedback very well. He is a bit bull-headed, which is an unfortunate part of his personality. He hates to hear other people's view points when they are in direct opposition to something that he has "directed," in his role as pastor.
We have to conduct ourselves accordingly. This is one of the major reasons why my husband and I WILL NOT be discussing our personal feelings and concerns about the letter with anyone at our church. We will not be responsible for stirring up any confusion in our church. We are getting some Godly counsel from the folks right here on this board, and also from 2 couples who are dear friends and Christians and are not members of our church.
Pride looms large for most people, seeking, and my husband and I have watched and prayed as proud pastors took action. You cannot control the pastor or the leadership. But God asks YOU and your husband to respond in Christlike love and that means regarding your brother/pastor as more important than yourself and to be looking out for him and his interests as well. This takes great humility. And humility is a supernatural work of the Spirit in our proud, fleshly hearts. I know because the Lord continues to show me mine. But you are listening to the Spirit speaking and you know the way He would have you go.
Go in meekness and love---as Jesus would go---honestly seeking to understand and help your pastor. He needs it. This is what the teaching about the log and the speck in Luke 6 is all about. You need to humble yourself, see how fleshly you are, and go to him as one just like him---not above, not apart, but like him in every way. That is what your pastor needs. He needs brothers to come along side in love.
And if you do this, you will be pursuing peace and walking as Jesus would have you walk. And pray long and hard for your pastor before you go. He is in a very difficult place and must be feeling quite threatened and stressed to have sent a letter such as this. Something is going on. Love him and go in love to find out how you can help your brother in need. Bless you and I'll continue to pray, LL 
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/23/2008 3:22:28 PM
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MrsTracy72
Posts: 1800
Joined: 2/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Calea37
Oh my goodness! Yuck. I would leave yesterday.
Ditto, but I can also relate to you. I was only part of my church for 6 years before I started to see things that were not as I had expected out of a church. It was such a tough decision to make and we went back and forth over it for months.
It is not right of a church to tell you where you are in your attendance. I mean what does that have to do with what is in your heart? I stopped attending my old church for about 4 months before finally making the final decision to officially leave. Within that 4 months, I think I had maybe attend that church twice.
I did talk with one of our pastors about it and was waiting to see about all of the wonderful "changes" that were supposed to come about within our congregation as a result of adding a second pastor who was going to attend to the families of the school. What I saw was that it seemed as if certian families were treated differently than other families and it caused a great division in the church and between the two pastors. I don't think either pastor handled it well and it made it just hard to be around them.
We ended up at a different church by chance and have not left since then. It has been the biggest blessing in my life because while that church was good for some, we simply were not getting anything out of it. I can't tell you what any of the sermons were about, but I can talk about my current church and the sermons and studies and all I have learned in the short year that I have been there.
It is hard to make that decision to leave, but if your church is more worried about attendance than your spritiual state, then you need to leave and not only walk away, but run very fast.
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/23/2008 3:29:49 PM
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chrisovery
Posts: 156
Joined: 10/6/2007
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LL, i love your last post. he does have a right to be shown the truth in love therefore i am taking back part of my last post. the part where it states to confront him publically. we must first try toi settle things one on one, with all the love of christ moving through us. you may be able to change things for him if you do this seeking. however if he will not accept as has been what has happened in the past with many pastors that i have talked to then i believe you really need to leave the church and do not look back. but he really needs to know that it is not him that you are in the church for but christ as far as the spiritual reason the church was set up.
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It is utterly impossible to govern a nation with out the Lord Jesus Christ and the bible.
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/24/2008 1:15:54 AM
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Annie64
Posts: 925
Joined: 6/4/2007
From: Indianapolis, IN
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisovery
i am sorry but i really do not like your post here. it seems to me that you are more worried about being popular, rather than the ways of the lord.
I guess I didn't say it very well. I wasn't a bit thinking about popularity. I was thinking about acting in love, and not just throwing human beings away that have messed up. IMO, to just leave without talking to the pastor would be doing just that. I guess my post was unnecessary, though, because Liveloved was saying it all much better. Maybe I should have just said, "what she said." 
In re-reading my post, I see why you thought I was thinking of popularity. What I was doing was imagining the reactions of all concerned should the OP just leave with no explanation. And I thought that what would happen would be that without communication, everybody would just be thinking the worst of everybody else and everybody would lose.  . This wouldn't bring anybody closer to the Lord, but could instead foster wrong attitudes on the part of everone involved.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/24/2008 11:56:40 AM
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sisrev
Posts: 886
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
The leadership at her church is not behaving in a Biblical manner. They are lording over with authority that is not given to them in Scripture.
I so agree with this!
I find that most leaders who emphasize "Obey those who have the rule over you" are more interested in their position and control of those they consider "under" them.
This is a control issue, pure and simple.
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/24/2008 12:02:42 PM
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sisrev
Posts: 886
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: The South, ya'll
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The pastor of a church I left a number of years ago told a friend of mine the he knew I thought he was too controlling, but the "It's the pastor's job to control the sheep." Funny, I thought it was the pastor's job to lead the sheep.
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/25/2008 10:17:34 AM
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Pavteam
Posts: 50
Joined: 11/8/2006
From: South Carolina
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I'd have to think that maybe the Lord is leading you to another church and this is how it is being made know to you. We are a military family and the thing I hate most about moving is trying to find a church. At one base, we visited a particular church for about a month - SS school, church, VBS and I even went to a ladies morning Bible study. Other than the 2 couples that we knew that went there - NO ONE made us feel welcome - no friendliness in SS - no visists from the pastor or deacons - nothing. We prayed and felt that God was telling us that was not the place for us. We had other friends who visited there say "not friendly? - they were almost too friendly and visited too often for us" So that was a confirmation that it was just as we felt - "God was using that experience of no friendliness to lead us elsewhere."
Valerie
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/25/2008 10:59:14 AM
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seeking2knowHimMore
Posts: 12
Joined: 8/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pavteam
I'd have to think that maybe the Lord is leading you to another church and this is how it is being made know to you. We are a military family and the thing I hate most about moving is trying to find a church. At one base, we visited a particular church for about a month - SS school, church, VBS and I even went to a ladies morning Bible study. Other than the 2 couples that we knew that went there - NO ONE made us feel welcome - no friendliness in SS - no visists from the pastor or deacons - nothing. We prayed and felt that God was telling us that was not the place for us. We had other friends who visited there say "not friendly? - they were almost too friendly and visited too often for us" So that was a confirmation that it was just as we felt - "God was using that experience of no friendliness to lead us elsewhere."
Valerie
You know, this is such a good point!! As my husband and I are processing through this early period in our decision-making, I'd recently mentioned that perhaps this experience is the "push" that we needed to make a change. It's so easy to have the security of relationships and friends at church....people who feel closer to you than family members!
The reality is that we know there are other churches who have thriving ministries that actually include toddlers and preschoolers. There are churches that could better minister to our family, overall, and not just by wonderful Sunday morning teaching and preaching. Even so, we will need to be particularly careful that we are truly seeking God's will and not acting on our own will and emotion....very hard to do sometimes--which is why we need prayers and we need to continue to be in prayer ourselves! :-)
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 8/25/2008 1:44:51 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11507
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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I think that you and your husband have your heads on straight and are going about this in a very wise way. Kudos!
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/1/2008 11:56:21 AM
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Math2237
Posts: 3
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline
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Seeking,
Great questions. I have also experienced difficult times in a previous church of mine. Some quick things:
1) No matter the situation, or what anyone has done in the church or how much you disagree, NEVER LEAVE THE CHURCH UNLESS GOD TELLS YOU TO LEAVE. We don't know what God has planned, but we need to stay in HIS will not ours.
2) NEVER DO SOMETHING IN THE CHURCH, I.E. WORK, VOLUNTEER, BIBLE STUDY ETC, UNLESS GOD DIRECTS IT. NEVER BURN YOURSELF OUT TO PLEASE MAN!!! I can't stress this enough, this is 100% man's criteria. God will direct you where/what he wants you to do. Never do what a leader tells you to do for the sake of supporting your leader.
REMEMBER GOD'S WILL BE DONE, NOT OURS OR THIERS!
Blessings
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/1/2008 12:53:42 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3549
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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I really do not qualify to respond to this post due to the fact we left a church of ten years, and my husband resigned from eldership. I know the feelings you talk about pertaining to love for the body and such. We went back and forth since a situation last May, that happened to our daughter on a Wed. night. I ask the Lord Aug 13 for a sign if we should leave or not, at work. I ask him to let something seal the deal. I did not attend church that night, as I was working well something blew wide open. Yesterday, we attended a new church, it was hard, I nearly cried during praise and worship at the new church. Things had broken down so badly at my old church, that now forgiveness on both sides is an issue now.
My problem is, and was God wanted us to leave, but we take it seriously to leave a body also. I do not like change, and sometimes the Lord has to allow a series of unfortunate events to push me, us. The Lord sees all things, and it could be he wants you to move to another body, for his reasons. My point is pray ask the Lord to show you something concrete, and he will in his timing. His wisdom is given if ask for. I know this is hard, but obey God no matter what direction he leads.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/2/2008 12:34:18 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3645
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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The song of some churches:
"You will notice we say brother and sister 'round here
It's because we're a family and these folks are so dear
When one has a problem we all disappear . . . ."
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/2/2008 8:00:14 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3645
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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oh, don't encourage her
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/2/2008 10:47:21 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 716
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
NEVER LEAVE THE CHURCH UNLESS GOD TELLS YOU TO LEAVE. We don't know what God has planned, but we need to stay in HIS will not ours.
In 2000, our family joined the kind of church I'd begun reading about 15 years earlier. Calvinistic, charismatic, passionate about student outreach, vocally committed to Christian education.
In 1990, we gave thought to jumping ship when an interim pastor suddenly sprang a slate of new elders upon us. Unqualified new elders. One even had his kids in public school -- a decision that created excruciating "cognitive dissonance" in me. Yet, God required us, I believe, to stay where we were until vocational obligations required us to move 150 miles. We left at peace with everyone, I believer. 18 carloads of folks showed up to help us pack, including the elder I'd been so obsessed with.
In His mercy, God spared us from experiencing an acrimonious church split that happened a few months after we left.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/2/2008 11:00:40 PM
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Neeva_Candida
Posts: 119
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
NEVER LEAVE THE CHURCH UNLESS GOD TELLS YOU TO LEAVE. We don't know what God has planned, but we need to stay in HIS will not ours.
One even had his kids in public school -- a decision that created excruciating "cognitive dissonance" in me.
I hope you say this in some ironic, sarcastic way. I'd hate to think that you truly believe that this person is somehow less qualified to be an elder simply because his children are in public school.
~Neeva
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/3/2008 7:15:05 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 716
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: offline
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quote:
I'd hate to think that you truly believe that this person is somehow less qualified to be an elder simply because his children are in public school.
I did, and do, but that's another topic we discuss elsewhere, so let's not go there with this thread.[1]
The bottom line, though, is that God called me to walk in peace for ten years with some people I fundamentally disagreed with. It was like being put in a round room and commanded to sit in the corner, a season of testing that left me a better man.
[1] Reader's Digest Condensed Version of the argument: If someone does not regard Christianity as an adequate religion to raise his own kids in, but hands them over for indoctrination in a rival faith, secular humanism, then his witness is compromised. He has offered "the genius of Caesar" something far more significant than a pinch of incense, namely, the souls and minds and bodies of his children.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/3/2008 8:23:47 PM
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Neeva_Candida
Posts: 119
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
I'd hate to think that you truly believe that this person is somehow less qualified to be an elder simply because his children are in public school.
I did, and do, but that's another topic we discuss elsewhere, so let's not go there with this thread.[1]
The bottom line, though, is that God called me to walk in peace for ten years with some people I fundamentally disagreed with. It was like being put in a round room and commanded to sit in the corner, a season of testing that left me a better man.
[1] Reader's Digest Condensed Version of the argument: If someone does not regard Christianity as an adequate religion to raise his own kids in, but hands them over for indoctrination in a rival faith, secular humanism, then his witness is compromised. He has offered "the genius of Caesar" something far more significant than a pinch of incense, namely, the souls and minds and bodies of his children.
Unlike you I will leave it for another thread.
~Neeva
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Update-RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/24/2008 1:11:39 PM
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seeking2knowHimMore
Posts: 12
Joined: 8/21/2008
Status: offline
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Hi everyone. It's me, Seeking.
Just wanted to first say THANK YOU to everyone who has responded and given me such honest and good advice. I truly appreciate it, and I thank the Lord that a forum such as this even exists.
An update for you all.....well, the Lord softened my husband's heart and he finally asked to have a meeting with our pastor. My husband and I will be meeting with our pastor tomorrow evening to discuss everything. Please, everyone, pray that the meeting is fruitful and that we treat each other with love and respect during the meeting. I also would ask that you all pray that the Lord would be in control and would lead my husband to do God's will for our family. I'll give you all an update after the meeting.
Thanks again, and blessings to all!
Seeking
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RE: Should We Leave Our Church? - 9/25/2008 4:04:51 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
Joined: 9/16/2008
From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
Status: offline
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Wow, and I thought I had been through some doozies (is that how you spell the plural for "doozy"?)
It is just possible (consider this a moment); The church could be suffering financially & in his desperation, he grasped a hold of some seriously bad advice. If your church answers to a larger corporate body, that your preacher may only be trying something that he has been suggested as an option.
We had something similar happen in a church sometime back. The District Superintendent came to a meeting & his statement to motivate us to increase our tithes was, "If you will increase your tithes & God DOES NOT honor you for it within twleve months, I WILL GIVE YOUR MONEY BACK MYSELF". I am looking across the table at a dear saintly old woman on Social Security who has been faithful to God for~~~~oh~~ probably about 70 years & this guy is telling her that God will pay her back if she will give more of her fixed income.
I also thought of the newly converted Christians who do not fully understand tithing & God's blessings of such & thought....you know what....if I were them & I took him up on this offer & I had a major appliance break down within those 12 months, I would have gone to him with a lot of questions, not to mention the invoice for payment.
It also was a form of gambling, but with GOD OF ALL THINGS!
Come to find out, he was only regurgitating something some other dufus tried.
People sometimes try things without considering the consequences. You guys should really call a meeting with those who agree with you and talk to him about it.
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