RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking?
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 9:24:29 PM
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bzirk
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Here's an excerpt from an article that I found interesting:
quote:
Tuesday, August 26, 2008
French curb on alcohol sales as teenagers discover le binge drinking
Teenagers are to be banned from buying alcohol in France, as health advisers dismiss the cherished Gallic belief that children should be initiated in the art of wine-drinking at an early age.
With British-style binge drinking gaining ground among French youth, officials say they want to send out a clear message against adolescent consumption. Roselyne Bachelot, the Health Minister, said that she was planning to make it illegal to sell alcohol to the under18s, with legislation likely to be introduced next year.
Her announcement signals a sea change in a society where 16-year-olds have been able to buy wine and beer, although not spirits, in cafés and restaurants and all alcoholic drinks in supermarkets and other shops with an off-licence. It marks a shift in official thinking over the hallowed French tradition of initiating the young in drinking rituals, notably involving wine.
The French consensus has been that the first sips should be taken in early adolescence – or before – under parental supervision. This is believed to foster a mature, sensible approach to alcohol far removed from Anglo-Saxon excesses – a couple of glasses of red with lunch and dinner throughout the week, rather than ten pints of lager on a Saturday night.
A senior French health adviser told The Times that his compatriots were deluding themselves. Bernard Basset, deputy managing director of the National Institute for Health Prevention and Education, said that not only did childhood tippling encourage adult alcoholism, but it was also no barrier to binge drinking.
read the rest here.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 9:29:11 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
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More interesting stuff:
quote:
Friday, August 22, 2008
Scottish doctors want new laws to tackle alcohol problems
BMA Scotland wants end to irresponsible loss-leading
New laws must be introduced to tackle alcohol misuse in Scotland, doctors have argued.
The British Medical Association (BMA) Scotland has responded to the government’s proposals on tackling alcohol-related problems by claiming that the drinks industry’s voluntary measures have failed because of a “conflict of interest”.
Instead it calls for immediate legislation and practical action.
However, the off-trade is very much the focus for the BMA. In its response it calls for an end to deep discounting and loss leading promotions, as well as two-for-one offers.
The BMA also supports the debate around raising the minimum age for off-trade sales to 21.
the rest of the article is here.
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may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 9:32:48 PM
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Rockwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
There aren't enough teen deaths so let's up the ante and increase the number of impaired drivers on the road.
Is it that simple? Is the outright banning of a substance (even within a certain age group) the best way to curb its use? As we've seen with prohibition and the war on drugs, people will find a way to get what they want and because the act of obtaining that substance is illegal, there are often some unintended side-effects. In the case of prohibition and drugs, that side-effect was a dangerous black market and the use of gov't resources trying to combat it. The campaign against smoking, however, has been more effective, because it was targeted at the culture and at minimizing its use in public spaces.
I wonder if there's a better way to curb teen drinking (particularly binge drinking) than to just make it illegal.
-Dan.
Changing the laws because "people will find a way to get what they want" is a slippery-slope argument. There are laws regarding the use of methamphetamines and other hard drugs, prostitution, physical abuse, etc. yet these events happen every single day. Should we simply make these legal since people are going to do them anyway?
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 9:37:07 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking?
More than 100 University and college presidents have signed a newlu circulated "manifesto" calling the country to rethink the minimum drinking age. They suggest that doing so will reduce the amount of "binge" drinking on campus.
What do you think?
It makes as much sense as putting led in a balloon so it can fly better.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 9:56:31 PM
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Rockwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
You do know that the source you posted is by the "Choose Responsibility", the same group who is behind the manifesto from the OP's link? Not exactly an unbiased source.
A few points to ponder:
- Among male drivers between 15 and 20 years of age who were involved in fatal crashes in 2005, 38% were speeding at the time of the crash and 24% had been drinking
- At all levels of blood alcohol concentration (BAC), the risk of involvement in a motor vehicle crash is greater for teens than for older drivers.
- In 2005, 23% of drivers ages 15 to 20 who died in motor vehicle crashes had a BAC of 0.08 g/dl or higher
- In 2005, three out of four teen drivers killed in motor vehicle crashes after drinking and driving were not wearing a seat belt.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/teenmvh.htm#how%20big%20is%20problem
There aren't enough teen deaths so let's up the ante and increase the number of impaired drivers on the road.
Your stats are more age-related. The logical outcome would be that the driving age should be raised.
The stats are age-related because this thread is solely dependent on how old/young a person should be when drinking alcohol. Your argument is that using seatbelts saves more lives than the legal age limit therefore we should lower the age limit.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 10:10:15 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
You do know that the source you posted is by the "Choose Responsibility", the same group who is behind the manifesto from the OP's link? Not exactly an unbiased source.
A few points to ponder:
- Among male drivers between 15 and 20 years of age who were involved in fatal crashes in 2005, 38% were speeding at the time of the crash and 24% had been drinking
- At all levels of blood alcohol concentration (BAC), the risk of involvement in a motor vehicle crash is greater for teens than for older drivers.
- In 2005, 23% of drivers ages 15 to 20 who died in motor vehicle crashes had a BAC of 0.08 g/dl or higher
- In 2005, three out of four teen drivers killed in motor vehicle crashes after drinking and driving were not wearing a seat belt.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/teenmvh.htm#how%20big%20is%20problem
There aren't enough teen deaths so let's up the ante and increase the number of impaired drivers on the road.
Your stats are more age-related. The logical outcome would be that the driving age should be raised.
The stats are age-related because this thread is solely dependent on how old/young a person should be when drinking alcohol. Your argument is that using seatbelts saves more lives than the legal age limit therefore we should lower the age limit.
My argument is that there are multiple reasons for the decrease in traffic fatalities. Crediting one factor is simply not realistic.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 10:14:54 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
French curb on alcohol sales as teenagers discover le binge drinking
quote:
Scottish doctors want new laws to tackle alcohol problems
Interesting how both are countries in Europe. Perhaps European countries are actually recognising, admitting and doing something about the problem rather than pointing fingers and saying that they aren't the worst?
Here's another article.
quote:
21 age rule for weekend drinkers
Shops and off-licences in a part of Carmarthenshire are no longer selling alcohol to anyone under the age of 21 at weekends.
The move introduced in villages in the upper Gwendraeth Valley is aimed at combating anti-social behaviour.
All outlets selling alcohol in the area have signed up to the voluntary scheme.
Dyfed-Powys Police said many under-age drinkers in the area were getting their alcohol from friends in the 18 to 21 age bracket.
Most supermarkets warn customers they will be asked for identification if they look under 21.
But police community support officer Ciaran Ryan said the initiative went a step further, stopping under 21s buying alcohol on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/7560729.stm
The id for under-21's is common across the UK, not just in this area. It is checked and maintained frequently ~ and I've seen checkout operators decline someone alcohol because they don't have id several times.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/26/2008 11:12:25 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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quote:
Interesting how both are countries in Europe. Perhaps European countries are actually recognising, admitting and doing something about the problem rather than pointing fingers and saying that they aren't the worst?
Agapetos...no one is pointing fingers, at least I'm not. People are merely pointing out the fact that binge-drinking by the young, and alcohol abuse in general, isn't a mainly American phenomenon as was suggested earlier in the thread. Young people often do dumb things no matter what their current address is.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 6:57:51 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1970
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
Changing the laws because "people will find a way to get what they want" is a slippery-slope argument. There are laws regarding the use of methamphetamines and other hard drugs, prostitution, physical abuse, etc. yet these events happen every single day. Should we simply make these legal since people are going to do them anyway?
If the side effects cause more harm than the actual act, yes. If lifting the ban would allow for a more structured legal/health/safety management of the activity, maybe.
Regarding the point on side effects, you'll have a hard time convincing me that smoking pot is all that dangerous and worthy of the government effort and black market violence its banning results in. Regarding management, I've heard convincing points about prostitution coming under gov't oversight once legalized, allowing it to be regulated and subjected to various health standards.
Regarding other substances or activities, it's something of a sliding scale and should be determined on a case-by-case basis.
Back to the issue of drinking - it's pretty clear that higher drinking ages don't do much to curb underage drinking. I think a better approach would be to undertake a smart, long-term campaign against underage drinking in the same way that smoking has been targeted.
-Dan.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 8:47:17 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
So, a 19-year-old is mature enough to guard nuclear weapons but not mature enough to have a beer?
Know what I learned when the drinking age was 21? I discovered that life can be just fine without alcohol.
Really.
BTW, beer doesn't improve one's ability to have clear judgment or be mature.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 10:30:45 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
So, a 19-year-old is mature enough to guard nuclear weapons but not mature enough to have a beer?
Know what I learned when the drinking age was 21? I discovered that life can be just fine without alcohol.
Really.
BTW, beer doesn't improve one's ability to have clear judgment or be mature.
You evaded the question.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 10:44:43 AM
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P31W
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Is everyone my age laughing out loud?
Did it reduce it when we were young and the legal age was 18?
What we find today is that it's more noticed. Back when I was growing up if you drove home drunk no one paid attention and there was no police report filed if they did stop you.
I remember two DUI accidents were people were killed and "no" charges were ever filed. It didn't even make it into the newspaper.
Times have changed. Today it's front page news in my area and it would also be on all three local news stations.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 10:49:23 AM
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P31W
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
So, a 19-year-old is mature enough to guard nuclear weapons but not mature enough to have a beer?
I believe those 19 year olds don't just come out of the general population and make the decision for themselves that they are mature enough.
Rather most have had training and someone who is wiser and more mature than themselves "chose" the individual to do that job.
You are trying to compare apples to nuts.
Speaking for myself at 19. No way was I mature enough to guard a dog house much less anything more important.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 11:00:44 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
So, a 19-year-old is mature enough to guard nuclear weapons but not mature enough to have a beer?
Know what I learned when the drinking age was 21? I discovered that life can be just fine without alcohol.
Really.
BTW, beer doesn't improve one's ability to have clear judgment or be mature.
You evaded the question.
Your question is silly but my answer addressed it. Maturity is not measured by beer. But most of the underaged drinkers I knew back then drank to excess.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 11:01:08 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
So, a 19-year-old is mature enough to guard nuclear weapons but not mature enough to have a beer?
I believe those 19 year olds don't just come out of the general population and make the decision for themselves that they are mature enough.
Rather most have had training and someone who is wiser and more mature than themselves "chose" the individual to do that job.
You are trying to compare apples to nuts.
Speaking for myself at 19. No way was I mature enough to guard a dog house much less anything more important.
I didn't bring up the nuclear weapons issue.
To be fair, no one solution takes care of any problem. Lots of special interest groups are involved (colleges, MADD, vendors, etc.). Decreasing the availability of kegs and amounts of alcohol that can be purchased by private citizens is one approach. Taxing kegs at a higher level. Each campus and community has to look at how they manage venues where heavy consumption takes place. Here's an interesting article which opposes my position on age but has a broader picture. LINK
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 11:02:13 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
...You are trying to compare apples to nuts...
Exactly!
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 11:04:54 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
I didn't bring up the nuclear weapons issue.
So what? Beer wasn't even an issue for those under 21 since it wasn't legal.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 11:19:38 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2851
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From: NE Ohio
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I live in one of the biggest drinking college towns there is...Kent Ohio. Lowering the drinking age will just make binge drinking legal and relieve the campus of its responsibility to deal with underage drinking. It would also open up the floodgates for breweries to advertise on campus bringing more revenue to raise the salary for the University President. It certainly wouldn't lower tuition costs.
One cannot compare 18 year old college students with 18 year old military personnel. Last time I looked Kent State didn't have a boot camp and drill sargeants breathing down the necks of their freshman recruits.
The number one deterent to binge drinking on campus that I've seen is paying for their own education. Students who are working to pay for their tuition, books and/or living expenses were far too busy and poor to binge drink. The majority of students going off to college at 18 years of age on mommy and daddy's money were far more likely to throw away their opportunity for a college education on alcohol.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 12:03:54 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
I live in one of the biggest drinking college towns there is...Kent Ohio. Lowering the drinking age will just make binge drinking legal and relieve the campus of its responsibility to deal with underage drinking. It would also open up the floodgates for breweries to advertise on campus bringing more revenue to raise the salary for the University President. It certainly wouldn't lower tuition costs.
One cannot compare 18 year old college students with 18 year old military personnel. Last time I looked Kent State didn't have a boot camp and drill sargeants breathing down the necks of their freshman recruits.
The number one deterent to binge drinking on campus that I've seen is paying for their own education. Students who are working to pay for their tuition, books and/or living expenses were far too busy and poor to binge drink. The majority of students going off to college at 18 years of age on mommy and daddy's money were far more likely to throw away their opportunity for a college education on alcohol.
Your first paragraph is simple histrionics. Universities have control over advertising on campus and states can pass laws governing same if necessary. Actually, one MUST compare all 18 year-olds in terms of a law that addresses the age group. My argument is for consistency.Your last paragraph would offer the solution that no college be allowed to accept boarding students. maybe a good idea but hardly practical. One cannot successfully legislate morality.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 12:06:48 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
....One cannot successfully legislate morality.
The great PC fallacy. Morality is virtually the only thing legislated. The question is whose, not whether.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 12:21:23 PM
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NoShow
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I don't see where they're suggestion lowering the drinking age.
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RE: Will lowering the drinking age reduce binge drinking? - 8/27/2008 1:53:42 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2851
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
I live in one of the biggest drinking college towns there is...Kent Ohio. Lowering the drinking age will just make binge drinking legal and relieve the campus of its responsibility to deal with underage drinking. It would also open up the floodgates for breweries to advertise on campus bringing more revenue to raise the salary for the University President. It certainly wouldn't lower tuition costs.
One cannot compare 18 year old college students with 18 year old military personnel. Last time I looked Kent State didn't have a boot camp and drill sargeants breathing down the necks of their freshman recruits.
The number one deterent to binge drinking on campus that I've seen is paying for their own education. Students who are working to pay for their tuition, books and/or living expenses were far too busy and poor to binge drink. The majority of students going off to college at 18 years | | |
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