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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 8:04:45 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 657
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Pastor Debbie I think your take on what happened in the garden does not line up with scripture.I don't see a biblical example of your proposition,furthermore authority,teaching, and leadership of Women over Men is at question here,not Womens ability to speak in an assembly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
'deceive'... to mislead, to trick, to falsely persuade others. Eve was tricked... misled. Whereas Adam made a concious choice... and as the spiritual leader, should have been 1. looking out for her... and 2. could have said no.
Silly... I guess so... but so is trying to lay blame (and letting that blame carry on to every generation of women)when they both were at fault.
It was a joke... (we have to stop taking folks comments so seriously)
do you see where I was trying to make the point about blame...
And I thought the topic... the ongoing topic... was "Women's role in the church"
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
As far as I can see from the total biblical record, Women are not authorized to teach or hold a position of authority over a Man as it concerns the assembly.
Yes... I can see that this is your opinion... however, I have a my opinion as well. I notice that you only addressed my silly joke rather than the rest of my post. Important stuff!
As I mentioned before... I have studied a lot on this and have went before God more than you could know before taking this position. Study, study, study... we need to go back to the original text in many cases. 2 Tim 2:15, "Be dilagent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
God Bless you... I'll try not to be silly anymore. 
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 8:39:05 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 662
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
It was a joke... (we have to stop taking folks comments so seriously)
do you see where I was trying to make the point about blame...
And I thought the topic... the ongoing topic... was "Women's role in the church"
I'm sorry I missed that,I have heard the point you were joking about being preached before,and your statement here, Silly... I guess so... but so is trying to lay blame (and letting that blame carry on to every generation of women)when they both were at fault.
Led me to believe that this was not a joke,but a position of yours.From what I see the fact that Paul identified Eve as being deceived,was significant in argument as to why Women are not to teach or usurp authority over Men.
Furthermore God assigned consequences to Eve,and Women based on her being deceived,disobeying his command and convincing Adam to do the same.One of which was that she would be subject to the rule of her husband
As for the rest of your post I was not ignoring it, I just grouped it all together,with an argument that I was not addressing,that is that Women are not allowed to prophesy,or speak in the assembly.
I would love for you to point me to scripture where you see support for Women holding positions of authority over Men in the assembly.If you have already provided it,perhaps you can refer me to the post# where you have addressed it.Thanks
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 10:22:31 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 657
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
It was a joke... (we have to stop taking folks comments so seriously)
do you see where I was trying to make the point about blame...
And I thought the topic... the ongoing topic... was "Women's role in the church"
I'm sorry I missed that,I have heard the point you were joking about being preached before,and your statement here, Silly... I guess so... but so is trying to lay blame (and letting that blame carry on to every generation of women)when they both were at fault.
Led me to believe that this was not a joke,but a position of yours.From what I see the fact that Paul identified Eve as being deceived,was significant in argument as to why Women are not to teach or usurp authority over Men.
Furthermore God assigned consequences to Eve,and Women based on her being deceived,disobeying his command and convincing Adam to do the same.One of which was that she would be subject to the rule of her husband
As for the rest of your post I was not ignoring it, I just grouped it all together,with an argument that I was not addressing,that is that Women are not allowed to prophesy,or speak in the assembly.
I would love for you to point me to scripture where you see support for Women holding positions of authority over Men in the assembly.If you have already provided it,perhaps you can refer me to the post# where you have addressed it.Thanks
No harm... no foul! And yes... I have heard all of the commentaries on Eve also. And I understand what you are saying.
In regard to 'holding positions of authority over men"... I have mentioned before (somewhere) that I do not believe that women should hold positions of authority OVER men. There is very clearly an order set forth by God from the beginning and refered to in 1 Cor 11:3. I believe in the order that God has set forth, God-Christ-Man-Woman. And I am covered by my senior pastor, my husband... in whom has all authority over me.
However, I do believe that women ARE allowed to prophesy and speak in the assembly... and preach and teach... exhort, etc.
There are many scriptures and examples... not to mention evidence.
I'm sure you have heard much of it... and I am not the one to change your mind... that is God's job!
God bless you and have a peace filled night! 
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 10:25:56 PM
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sunofone
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You would be surprised to know that I am not dogmatic in my thoughts concerning Womens role in the church.I am just simply making my scriptural observations known to hear what others are seeing as well.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 10:35:31 PM
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JesKlu
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Hello Debi!
I'm curious about your being a pastor. I'm a young woman too but not a pastor. The Christian denomination I come from, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is firmly against women pastors (and elders). What group do you come from that allows you to be a female pastor?
Because of your being on men/woman's roles in the church, I decided to do some research and I found this website. Basically, there were no woman pastors before the 1800's. And I read many Early Church Fathers that spoke against women in the ministry. But in this website, that in the 1800's, it was the Quakers that started allowing female ministers.
What is it that caused women to not be ordained as ministers until the 1800's?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg13.htm
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/1/2008 10:43:33 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 11:33:56 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2402
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From: California
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quote:
What is it that caused women to not be ordained as ministers until the 1800's?
If you read the last chapter of Roman's, it seems clear that women served in ministry all the way back into the first century. Additionally there were women ministers prior to the 1800's but not a whole lot earlier. Until the 1500's the church was under the authority of the Catholic papal system, and the Pope decided issues like this. Most people couldn't even read a bible and compare what it said to what they were told it said because the only widely available translation was in Latin.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 12:49:36 AM
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Beck34
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How can anyone be right on this issue? There are so many scriptures to back up both sides. You can't just take part o th Bible, yo have to take it in it's entireity!
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 1:06:59 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2402
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
How can anyone be right on this issue? There are so many scriptures to back up both sides. You can't just take part o th Bible, yo have to take it in it's entireity!
I really do believe that we can get to a "right" perspective; however, it does take work and study and because of the complexity of this topic, we do need to be careful not to be overly dogmatic.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 1:32:24 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
How can anyone be right on this issue? There are so many scriptures to back up both sides. You can't just take part o th Bible, yo have to take it in it's entireity!
quote:
I really do believe that we can get to a "right" perspective; however, it does take work and study and because of the complexity of this topic, we do need to be careful not to be overly dogmatic.
Both these comments reflect the modern tendency to succumb to the twin deceptions that (1) one cannot really find the Truth in Scripture and that (2) God has not given us a very clear understanding of the roles of men and women in the home and in the church.
The truth is the exact opposite. Christians can, and should know, without the shadow of a doubt, that while men are called to leadership and spiritual authority within the home and the local assembly, women are actually forbidden from assuming these roles or usurping authority.
The reason why doubt has been sown within Christian hearts and minds is because Satan has introduced the great deception of the feminist movement that men are out to subjugate women, and therefore women must do their utmost to take on the roles of men.
God has indeed provided a teaching ministry to women. They are to teach other women and their own children. This in itself is a wonderful privilege. But Satan wants to continue engendering strife between men and women, both inside and outside the church. Therefore he instigates "evangelical feminism" -- an oxymoron if ever there was one.
God's principles for the roles of men and women are engraved in the Creation account, and this echoes in the Gospels and the epistles. Therefore there is no uncertainty whatsoever about their respective roles. The issue now is the rebellion of some women against their God-given roles so that they may indeed usurp authority.
The most pathetic attempt of evangelical feminists is to introduced Deborah into a discussion of New Testament truth, with no regard to the fact that she was an exception in an exceptional time (the times of the Judges). And when specific actions were to be taken against the enemies of Israel, she encouraged Barak to take the lead inspite of his cowardice.
Deborah would be the first one to condemn the evangelical feminists:
"I arose a MOTHER in Israel... My heart is towards the governors of Israel, who offered themselves willingly among the people" (Judges 5:7-9).
Did Deborah say "I arose a father in Israel?" Not at all. And who were these "governors"? Men or women? Undoubtedly men, and her heart was towards these men. She did not try to instigate other women to take on the role of the governors.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 2:50:21 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2545
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The truth is the exact opposite. Christians can, and should know, without the shadow of a doubt, that while men are called to leadership and spiritual authority within the home and the local assembly, women are actually forbidden from assuming these roles or usurping authority.
The reason why doubt has been sown within Christian hearts and minds is because Satan has introduced the great deception of the feminist movement that men are out to subjugate women, and therefore women must do their utmost to take on the roles of men.
God has indeed provided a teaching ministry to women. They are to teach other women and their own children. This in itself is a wonderful privilege. But Satan wants to continue engendering strife between men and women, both inside and outside the church. Therefore he instigates "evangelical feminism" -- an oxymoron if ever there was one.
God's principles for the roles of men and women are engraved in the Creation account, and this echoes in the Gospels and the epistles. Therefore there is no uncertainty whatsoever about their respective roles. The issue now is the rebellion of some women against their God-given roles so that they may indeed usurp authority.
Amen!
I, as a woman, absolutely refuse to let another woman have authority over me in the postition of "pastor" in the church.
I love to teach other woman though
_____________________________
~I would love for you to come and learn about Jesus of Nazareth with me in the Writer's Roundtable Folder~
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 2:20:21 AM
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Beck34
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So, what you are saying is that women can be leadersin a capacity of a womens' ministry, children's ministry or a teen ministry?
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 1:35:19 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 657
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).
If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer meeting, young people's service, etc., for who can deny that Sunday School and Prayer meeting, and Youth work are parts of church? Christ's Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a home, church, classroom or anywhere else.
Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", as a way of pointing out the word "husband"... meaning, a man. So if we are to take 'just these words' we can assume then that all single pastors are wrong in taking the pulpit. Correct?
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 3:10:12 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1155
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quote:
sunofone: As far as I can see from the total biblical record, Women are not authorized to teach or hold a position of authority over a Man as it concerns the assembly.
As a woman, I completely agree. There's a reason there are no instructions whatsoever for women elders, deacons, pastors, bishops. This fits in perfectly when the Bible is taken as a whole. I do not and will not recognize the authority of any woman who puts herself in leadership over men within the congregation. When God says 'X' and we do 'Y'... what else can we call that except rebellion?
For those who are new Christians and maybe have not fully looked into this issue, I truly hope you will put aside what's new, popular, and trendy and study this further. For those who are not new Christians or leaders and yet still agree with the ordination of women, all I can say is that you should know better. You really should.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/5/2008 3:25:00 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 3:19:20 PM
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BibleBased
Posts: 67
Joined: 4/29/2008
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Anyone who has seen my site name and first few posts will know that i stand firmly behind the bible. Therefore i agree with the people, who agree with the bible. No leadership roles for women within the church, which includes obviously being the pastor/ minister.
Women of course go against the word of God, especially the minister/ pastor's wives who often are 2nd only to the Pastor.
I once watched a woman give a talk on this to a packed church -hundreds present- and tv audience saying women must not teach men. It went on and on and on, and there she was at the front, with a hooked audience/ congregation. She was doing exactly what she was teaching must not happen! It was actually so funny, i couldn't turn it off.
I tire of saying it - As Christians we should follow God's Word/ the bible. If you hold a different view, you are fighting against God. BibleBased.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 4:37:40 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 537
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
sunofone: As far as I can see from the total biblical record, Women are not authorized to teach or hold a position of authority over a Man as it concerns the assembly.
As a woman, I completely agree. There's a reason there are no instructions whatsoever for women elders, deacons, pastors, bishops. This fits in perfectly when the Bible is taken as a whole. I do not and will not recognize the authority of any woman who puts herself in leadership over men within the congregation. When God says 'X' and we do 'Y'... what else can we call that except rebellion?
For those who are new Christians and maybe have not fully looked into this issue, I truly hope you will put aside what's new, popular, and trendy and study this further. For those who are not new Christians or leaders and yet still agree with the ordination of women, all I can say is that you should know better. You really should.
Hello lw9!
I agree wholeheartedly with you. I believe that those people who choose to agree with the ordination of women, they are fully going against God's Word knowingly. There are obvious scriptures in the Bible that absolutely forbid women to teach in that way.
I second what you say on that these preachers should know better, and that what they are doing is rebellion.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 5:28:12 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2545
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
sunofone: As far as I can see from the total biblical record, Women are not authorized to teach or hold a position of authority over a Man as it concerns the assembly.
As a woman, I completely agree. There's a reason there are no instructions whatsoever for women elders, deacons, pastors, bishops. This fits in perfectly when the Bible is taken as a whole. I do not and will not recognize the authority of any woman who puts herself in leadership over men within the congregation. When God says 'X' and we do 'Y'... what else can we call that except rebellion?
For those who are new Christians and maybe have not fully looked into this issue, I truly hope you will put aside what's new, popular, and trendy and study this further. For those who are not new Christians or leaders and yet still agree with the ordination of women, all I can say is that you should know better. You really should.
Very well said! Thank you. It is rebellion!
_____________________________
~I would love for you to come and learn about Jesus of Nazareth with me in the Writer's Roundtable Folder~
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 5:47:32 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Is there a difference between ordaining women as elders or deacons and ordaining women in other aspects of ministry? I think there is a huge difference.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 7:59:30 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 657
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
How can anyone be right on this issue? There are so many scriptures to back up both sides. You can't just take part of the Bible, you have to take it in it's entireity!
This is a very true statement.
Here is a good verse...
1 Chronicles 16:22, "Touch not My anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm."
This is a good verse to study before taking pot-shots at anyone preaching the Word of God.
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 8:05:13 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 657
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Is there a difference between ordaining women as elders or deacons and ordaining women in other aspects of ministry? I think there is a huge difference.
I don't think so... since elders and deacons are directed to "teach."
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 8:29:33 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Is there a difference between ordaining women as elders or deacons and ordaining women in other aspects of ministry? I think there is a huge difference.
I don't think so... since elders and deacons are directed to "teach."
I agree that women aren't supposed to be elders and deacons. You're telling me that there are no other ordinations (ordination simply means set apart)? Women are shown teaching in many parts of the New Testament, so perhaps 1 Timothy 2:12-13, the verses cited as showing that women can't teach, are talking about a certain kind of teaching. Looking at it in context, it would certainly seem that way.
Titus 2:3-5 shows that women are commanded to teach younger women.
2 Timothy 3:15 shows that Timothy had known scriptures from infancy, and 2 Timothy 1:5 shows that he was taught by his grandmother Lois and his mother Eunice. His father was a Greek and an uncircumcised man according to Acts 16:1, so it couldn't have been his father who taught him the scriptures.
The Samaritan woman in John 4 shared the gospel with the whole town, which included men.
In Acts 18:24-26, Priscilla helped explain to Apollos the way of God. In fact, her name is mentioned first.
1 Corinthians 11:5 lets us know that women pray and prophecy in the worship gathering.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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