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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 9:46:36 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 537
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
It always amazes me that so many ignore some scripture, and hold so chikingly tight to others!
again...
1 Chronicles 16:22, "Touch not My anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm."
Critical sprits are also a sin... yet no-one seems bothered by that.
Hello Debi!
What then is to be said about these scriptures? Is this not the Word of God? Christians are not called to put God to the test by resisting His Word.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
I am a young woman, and I would never submit to a woman pastor, because I know it is against God's Holy Word. But when I hear a woman pastors words, it reminds me of these 2 scripture passages that I just quoted. You may be saying the truth of the word, but the pastoral office is not for a woman, including me.
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 9:52:12 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2545
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
It always amazes me that so many ignore some scripture, and hold so chikingly tight to others!
again...
1 Chronicles 16:22, "Touch not My anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm."
Critical sprits are also a sin... yet no-one seems bothered by that.
But, Debi, if we do not believe you are anointed to be a pastor and we do not believe you are a prophet, why do you condemn us?
For that is the truth. The great majority of posters on this website do not believe a woman is anointed to be a pastor or prophet....
Moderator, I will back out now from addressing her 
_____________________________
~I would love for you to come and learn about Jesus of Nazareth with me in the Writer's Roundtable Folder~
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 12:41:09 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1155
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
pstrdebi: 1 Chronicles 16:22, "Touch not My anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm."
Yes, that is the fallback position of those who don't want to be theologically questioned. Have no fear, though. No one is trying to physically harm you ala 1 Chronicles, and that passage has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 1:06:18 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1199
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
I am a pastor. I am under my senior pastor's (also my husband) covering. Before taking this step in my life, I studied long and hard... not only to be a pastor... but to know that I was right before God.
Blessings...
Pastor Debi
So.....
Apparently you do not believe in the Scriptures via the Pauline epistles? Peter wrote of those who “wrest” against the Scriptures:
2 Pet 3:9-18
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 AND ACCOUNT THAT THE LONGSUFFERING OF OUR LORD IS SALVATION; EVEN AS OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL ALSO ACCORDING TO THE WISDOM GIVEN UNTO HIM HATH WRITTEN UNTO YOU;
16 AS ALSO IN ALL HIS EPISTLES, SPEAKING IN THEM OF THESE THINGS; IN WHICH ARE SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, WHICH THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.
17 YE THEREFORE, BELOVED, SEEING YE KNOW THESE THINGS BEFORE, BEWARE LEST YE ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEDFASTNESS.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
So many out there think they are doing God service through their "sacrifice", and yet “......Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.” (1 Sam 15:22)
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 1:13:06 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1199
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
It always amazes me that so many ignore some scripture, and hold so chikingly tight to others!
again...
1 Chronicles 16:22, "Touch not My anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm."
Critical sprits are also a sin... yet no-one seems bothered by that.
Hello Debi!
What then is to be said about these scriptures? Is this not the Word of God? Christians are not called to put God to the test by resisting His Word.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
I am a young woman, and I would never submit to a woman pastor, because I know it is against God's Holy Word. But when I hear a woman pastors words, it reminds me of these 2 scripture passages that I just quoted. You may be saying the truth of the word, but the pastoral office is not for a woman, including me.
Jessica
May the Lord bless you for your belief in His Holy Word Sister.
As for those who do not believe, Jesus said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 2:50:21 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Is there a difference between ordaining women as elders or deacons and ordaining women in other aspects of ministry? I think there is a huge difference.
First of all we need to be clear about "ordination". Today ordination equates to a person assuming the title of "Reverend", becoming a member of "the clergy", having assumed that this person has attended a Bible Seminary etc. "Ordination" today is what used to be "the laying on of hands" of the apostles, except that there was no difference between clergy and laity at that time.
Since the apostles passed on, it is the Holy Spirit Himself who truly "ordains", and it is the local assembly that acknowledges this calling. As for the use of "Reverend", that is a legacy from the RCC, which gave it's clergy all kinds of high-sounding titles, and made a distinction between clergy and laity.
When we turn to Scripture, we find that it is the Holy Spirit who "appoints" those called to serve God (Acts 13:1-5), and He also gifts those individuals so that they are enabled to minister to others (1 Cor. 12:28-31). Titus was commanded to appoint elders in every city. He was not an apostle, but a delegate of the apostles, therefore it was ultimately the Holy Spirit who did the appointing through him. These were not clergy. This was a "calling" with the corresponding "gifts". Many served without remuneration (as even Paul did).
The ministry of the Word is reserved for men in Scripture (Acts 6:4; 1 Pet. 4:10,11), preferably but not exclusively pastor/elder/bishops (mature Christian men), since apostles, prophets, and evangelists are also included.
There are qualifications for elders, but the Holy Spirit distributes His gifts according to His own sovereign will. Not all elders would have had the gift of "pastor", yet they were all shepherds. Some were teachers, others had the gift of "government", others "helps" etc.
"Ministry" may also be used more broadly to mean Christian service. The word diakonos means a servant or one who ministers to, or serves, others (including domestic servants). Therefore women can have a ministry to women (or the church) without being "ordained".
Phoebe, for example, was "a servant [diakonon] of the church at Cenchrea" (Rom. 16:1). Was she a pastor/elder or even a deaconness? Not at all. She was truly a "servant" and because she was presumably a rich lady, her service to the churches and the saints was to share her wealth and hospitality for "she hath been a succourer [helper] of many". What were her gifts? The gifts of "helps" (1 Cor. 12:28) and liberality.
Since there are clear Scriptures forbidding women to take authority over men or over the church, and forbidding them to preach or teach the assembly, women were given the ministry of teaching other women and children (Tit. 2:4,5). To disregard these clear Scriptures and "ordain" women is to reject the authority of Scripture.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 5:53:44 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Is there a difference between ordaining women as elders or deacons and ordaining women in other aspects of ministry? I think there is a huge difference.
First of all we need to be clear about "ordination". Today ordination equates to a person assuming the title of "Reverend", becoming a member of "the clergy", having assumed that this person has attended a Bible Seminary etc. "Ordination" today is what used to be "the laying on of hands" of the apostles, except that there was no difference between clergy and laity at that time.
Since the apostles passed on, it is the Holy Spirit Himself who truly "ordains", and it is the local assembly that acknowledges this calling. As for the use of "Reverend", that is a legacy from the RCC, which gave it's clergy all kinds of high-sounding titles, and made a distinction between clergy and laity.
When we turn to Scripture, we find that it is the Holy Spirit who "appoints" those called to serve God (Acts 13:1-5), and He also gifts those individuals so that they are enabled to minister to others (1 Cor. 12:28-31). Titus was commanded to appoint elders in every city. He was not an apostle, but a delegate of the apostles, therefore it was ultimately the Holy Spirit who did the appointing through him. These were not clergy. This was a "calling" with the corresponding "gifts". Many served without remuneration (as even Paul did).
The ministry of the Word is reserved for men in Scripture (Acts 6:4; 1 Pet. 4:10,11), preferably but not exclusively pastor/elder/bishops (mature Christian men), since apostles, prophets, and evangelists are also included.
There are qualifications for elders, but the Holy Spirit distributes His gifts according to His own sovereign will. Not all elders would have had the gift of "pastor", yet they were all shepherds. Some were teachers, others had the gift of "government", others "helps" etc.
"Ministry" may also be used more broadly to mean Christian service. The word diakonos means a servant or one who ministers to, or serves, others (including domestic servants). Therefore women can have a ministry to women (or the church) without being "ordained".
Phoebe, for example, was "a servant [diakonon] of the church at Cenchrea" (Rom. 16:1). Was she a pastor/elder or even a deaconness? Not at all. She was truly a "servant" and because she was presumably a rich lady, her service to the churches and the saints was to share her wealth and hospitality for "she hath been a succourer [helper] of many". What were her gifts? The gifts of "helps" (1 Cor. 12:28) and liberality.
Since there are clear Scriptures forbidding women to take authority over men or over the church, and forbidding them to preach or teach the assembly, women were given the ministry of teaching other women and children (Tit. 2:4,5). To disregard these clear Scriptures and "ordain" women is to reject the authority of Scripture.
I suppose I don't think of clergy as "higher" than laity. When I think of ordination, I don't think of bringing someone higher. I've seen ordained ministers who did not take up the role of pastor or deacon. That is my point.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 9:46:45 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2413
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
Phoebe, for example, was "a servant [diakonon] of the church at Cenchrea" (Rom. 16:1). Was she a pastor/elder or even a deaconness? Not at all. She was truly a "servant" and because she was presumably a rich lady, her service to the churches and the saints was to share her wealth and hospitality for "she hath been a succourer [helper] of many". What were her gifts? The gifts of "helps" (1 Cor. 12:28) and liberality.
'diakonon' in Rom. 16:1 appears to be a title, not simply a designation of Phobe's willingness to serve. Had Phobe been a man the question about her office would even have been an issue her and her title would not have to be explained away. While 'diakonon' can be translated as servant (and often is); it is unwanted to do so here, and appears more of a creative way to exegete around the difficulty this presents to the "traditional" perspective on women's roles. Similar gymnastics are often employed when people try to argue that Junia (a famine name) was really a man in order to avoid the difficulty encountered by the possibility of a woman apostle. (Ro 16:7) While I do believe there are some good arguments for not concluding that Junia was an apostle, turning her into a man to avoid the issue is a good example of how far some will go to avoid anything that challenges there "traditional" belief system.
quote:
Since there are clear Scriptures forbidding women to take authority over men or over the church, and forbidding them to preach or teach the assembly
This perspective is highly dependent on how one translates 'authentien', and there is ample reason to believe that a simple prohibition against women having any authority over a man was not Paul's intention in 1 Timothy. Both Christian and secular Greek scholars have raised serious objections to such a translation.
quote:
women were given the ministry of teaching other women and children (Tit. 2:4,5).
This is a clear misuse of scripture. While older women are encouraged to minister to younger women, there is absolutely no prohibition of other ministries given in this passage. Additionally, as implemented in most churches that teach a "traditional" view of women in ministry, the ministry of women over children would be in direct violation to what they suppose the scriptures taught because in the first century a boy was considered a man at age 13. How many churches today prohibit women from teaching 13 year olds? How many churches today encourage mothers not to exercise authority over their Jr High and High school boys? IF the "traditional" interpretation is really what Paul intended (and there is a whole lot to indicate otherwise), almost all churches that teach this today need to make some big changes because the have allowed our culture to dictate when a boy becomes a man rather than following Paul's understanding.
quote:
To disregard these clear Scriptures and "ordain" women is to reject the authority of Scripture.
I am sorry, but this is not quite this simple. Statements like this add little value to the discussion of a topic like this, and unfortunately these statements come from those on both extremes. Is one to believe you when you make such an unfounded statement, or should one believe the Egalitarian who makes the same unfounded statement to support their belief? You pick the scriptures that seem to best represent your position, and ignore (or try and explain away) the ones that don't, and they do the same thing from the complete opposite perspective.
I would strongly recommend reading "Women in Ministry: four views". In this book Robert D. Culver and Susan T. Foh present a perspective and interpretation almost identical to yours; however, they do this with a lot of grace and understanding of those who do not share their interpretation. Where they have made interpretive choices about passages like 1 Ti. 2 that support a very "traditional" point of view; they still acknowledge the difficulties inherent in these passages, and have chosen to show respect towards those who have not made the same conclusions that they have. The reality is that many Christians, who believe the bible to be God's authoritative, inerrant, and infallible word, interpret these passages quite differently than you do and still absolutely accept the authority of Scripture.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 11:35:42 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1199
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Phoebe, for example, was "a servant [diakonon] of the church at Cenchrea" (Rom. 16:1). Was she a pastor/elder or even a deaconness? Not at all. She was truly a "servant" and because she was presumably a rich lady, her service to the churches and the saints was to share her wealth and hospitality for "she hath been a succourer [helper] of many". What were her gifts? The gifts of "helps" (1 Cor. 12:28) and liberality.
'diakonon' in Rom. 16:1 appears to be a title, not simply a designation of Phobe's willingness to serve. Had Phobe been a man the question about her office would even have been an issue her and her title would not have to be explained away. While 'diakonon' can be translated as servant (and often is); it is unwanted to do so here, and appears more of a creative way to exegete around the difficulty this presents to the "traditional" perspective on women's roles. Similar gymnastics are often employed when people try to argue that Junia (a famine name) was really a man in order to avoid the difficulty encountered by the possibility of a woman apostle. (Ro 16:7) While I do believe there are some good arguments for not concluding that Junia was an apostle, turning her into a man to avoid the issue is a good example of how far some will go to avoid anything that challenges there "traditional" belief system.
quote:
Since there are clear Scriptures forbidding women to take authority over men or over the church, and forbidding them to preach or teach the assembly
This perspective is highly dependent on how one translates 'authentien', and there is ample reason to believe that a simple prohibition against women having any authority over a man was not Paul's intention in 1 Timothy. Both Christian and secular Greek scholars have raised serious objections to such a translation.
quote:
women were given the ministry of teaching other women and children (Tit. 2:4,5).
This is a clear misuse of scripture. While older women are encouraged to minister to younger women, there is absolutely no prohibition of other ministries given in this passage. Additionally, as implemented in most churches that teach a "traditional" view of women in ministry, the ministry of women over children would be in direct violation to what they suppose the scriptures taught because in the first century a boy was considered a man at age 13. How many churches today prohibit women from teaching 13 year olds? How many churches today encourage mothers not to exercise authority over their Jr High and High school boys? IF the "traditional" interpretation is really what Paul intended (and there is a whole lot to indicate otherwise), almost all churches that teach this today need to make some big changes because the have allowed our culture to dictate when a boy becomes a man rather than following Paul's understanding.
quote:
To disregard these clear Scriptures and "ordain" women is to reject the authority of Scripture.
I am sorry, but this is not quite this simple. Statements like this add little value to the discussion of a topic like this, and unfortunately these statements come from those on both extremes. Is one to believe you when you make such an unfounded statement, or should one believe the Egalitarian who makes the same unfounded statement to support their belief? You pick the scriptures that seem to best represent your position, and ignore (or try and explain away) the ones that don't, and they do the same thing from the complete opposite perspective.
I would strongly recommend reading "Women in Ministry: four views". In this book Robert D. Culver and Susan T. Foh present a perspective and interpretation almost identical to yours; however, they do this with a lot of grace and understanding of those who do not share their interpretation. Where they have made interpretive choices about passages like 1 Ti. 2 that support a very "traditional" point of view; they still acknowledge the difficulties inherent in these passages, and have chosen to show respect towards those who have not made the same conclusions that they have. The reality is that many Christians, who believe the bible to be God's authoritative, inerrant, and infallible word, interpret these passages quite differently than you do and still absolutely accept the authority of Scripture.
I find it very interesting that the NT Scriptures that are twisted the most are those penned (not written) by Paul.
Peter wrote about this:
2 Pet 3:15-17
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
A woman’s role of course is the most perverted subject, and this of course rages against God’s order going back to creation itself.
The Scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say, and for those who would add or subtract from God’s Word they should read Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, Proverbs 30:5-6, and
Revelation 22:18-19.
The serpent tempted Eve by convincing her that she could be “something more” than what God created her to be:
Gen 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
That same serpent is still convincing women that they can and should be “something more” than what God has created them for.
Eve was not content to “merely” be a “help meet” for her husband. She wanted to “be as [a god]” and through her covetousness she yielded to the serpents deception.
Women reaching for what God has reserved for a few godly husbands only (1 Tim 3:1-12) is every bit as covetous as was Eve right before the fall.
No amount of exegetical prestidigitation will ever change this to those who truly seek to follow God’s Word.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 12:09:51 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 662
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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I think there is a greater point here to be seen then who is right or wrong on this issue,and that is what is God trying to show us here? I think if we look at it from that view something so simple yet very profound unfolds that is beautiful for all to behold.
I think I may have stumbled upon it in just the past day or so.It's not earth shattering and it's something that I've seen as I'm sure all of us have seen and read before.
I just finally saw it for the first time.Women are told to submit to their Husbands,while Husbands are told to love their Wives as Christ loved the Church.
The Womans submission is to be met with love,a covering,provision and protection.Jesus submitted himself to God,who in turn did for him as a good Husband would do for his Bride.
In submitting Jesus took on the female role.God is showing us through the role of Women how we are to be in relationship to him.
The picture of our submission for Men and Women is shown by the oneness in the relationship between Jesus and God.
Everything in it's order.God, Jesus, Man, Woman.First there is God who then creates Man.
In this scenario neither is complete.Eve is yet to come,as well as Jesus neither of them are afterthoughts or disaster plans.They were intentionally withheld for a time in order to both teach and prepare us for them.
Next came Eve for the Man,and lastly Jesus for all including God,because Jesus connects us all.
It was this way from the beginning,we just see it unfolding in succession.Women are perfectly positioned as the connectors,as the one who co-creates and completes.
Her role being defined as it is,is to show us the total picture,which is abundantly clear in scripture,yet somehow I didn't get it until now.
I couldn't seem to get my brain around why Women seemed to get treated unfairly,I now think I see how wrong I was.
This just makes me appreciate how easily I can be deceived,and walk away thinking one thing about the bible,and be so totally wrong.I am completely humbled,and awesomely afraid of what I now see.
I hope this sort of shows us the importance of recognizing the roles,and why they are so important.
< Message edited by sunofone -- 5/7/2008 12:18:03 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 9:33:07 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 657
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
So.....
Apparently you do not believe in the Scriptures via the Pauline epistles? Peter wrote of those who “wrest” against the Scriptures:
Please do not twist my words to satify yourself. Being puffed up is not admirable.
I do however believe and study the whole and true Word of God... not the watered down version that some adhear to, or the bits and pieces version that many adhear to.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
When Paul instructed men and women (some think husbands and wives were specifically in view) in his churches (see also 1 Cor 11:2-16; 14:33-35), the immediate problem was disturbances in the worship service.
First, the passage must be assessed within the whole of Paul's teaching, and particularly in light of other statements he made about the relationship of men and women (and husbands and wives). In attempting to understand the relevance of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 today, men have rightly pointed to a Pauline theme of equality within the social structure, as registered by the triad of texts Galatians 3:28, 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Colossians 3:11. Further, it is certainly arguable that Paul's acknowledgment of the role of women in his ministry (Rom 16:1; Phil 4:3) and in the church's worship (1 Cor 11:10) is the outworking of that principle of equality. The apparent discordant note struck in the present passage (and in 1 Cor 14:33-35) should alert us to the fact that Paul's program of social equality was not unconditional, but it does not necessarily nullify the basic principle. As F. F. Bruce explained, in Galatians 3:28 "Paul states the basic principle . . . if restrictions on it are found elsewhere . . . they are to be understood in relation to Gal. 3:28, and not vice versa" (1982:190).
Paul actually encourages women to learn, which sets him apart from his contemporaries in Judaism. But it is the manner in which they learn that will settle the disturbances they have been causing in the church at this given time in history: in quietness and full submission (v. 11). Paul does not mean that women are to be absolutely silent during the service (compare 1 Cor 11:5). Rather, he instructs them to exhibit quietness (in spirit) instead of taking the lead. Even as learners, perhaps, they are to refrain from entering into public discussions about interpretation of the Old Testament and prophecies (1 Cor 14:33-35).
This a universal or temporary rule. The teaching here needs to be understood as an exception to the principle of Galatians 3:28, necessitated by the imprudent actions of some women.
(v. 12) is reference to separate activities that Paul restricted to men. Or the first term might represent a specific example of activity that falls under the general rule that follows: women's teaching in the public assembly would violate the given authority structure. In either case, we should notice that Paul did not employ his usual term for "the normal exercise of authority" (exousia). He chose an unusual word (authenteo) that could carry negative connotations such as "to usurp or misappropriate authority" or "to domineer." The unusual term signifies an unusual situation at that time. In the Ephesian context at least, women had misappropriated authority at that time and wee usurp probably their husbands in the setting of worship.
Verses 11-12 aim to restore peace in the worship service of that day by placing certain limits on the role of women. This step led Paul to invoke a subordination rule; it seems to have precluded women from teaching men, since to do so constituted authenteo--that is, the wrongful appropriation of authority over men.
The church does not want to study the Word in it's entirety, they like what they like and dis-miss the rest. You cannot pick and choose the text to satisfy your own desires. Many think the Bible is contradictory because of thinking like this. Such is the case with Judas. In the book of Matthew, Judas is said to have simply hung himself... and in the book of Acts, it describes Judas as falling headlong and bursting open in the middle and all of his entrails gushing out. To many it sounds contadictory, however, if you study the times, you would know that when a man hung himself to death, no-one would touch him, as he was unclean. And when Judas hung there for a time, either the noose broke or his bloated body seperated at the neck and he fell to the ground bursting open. My reason for telling you this, is that you need to study the entire Bible, as well as the original Hebrew and Greek, as well as the biblical times.
It is not I that "wrest" against the scriptures... yet it is you and others who "take away" scriptures to satisfy your own teachings (Rev. 22:19). I would admonish all to study the text of 2 Peter 3:16 thyselves.
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are somethings hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures."
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"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 2:35:54 AM
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Beck34
Posts: 200
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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So am I to assume that some of you feel it is not a woman's place to lead a teenage male? What if the father of that child is not a christian? Are we not allowed to minister in this capacity?
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What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 9:06:17 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1199
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
...When Paul instructed men and women (some think husbands and wives were specifically in view) in his churches (see also 1 Cor 11:2-16; 14:33-35), the immediate problem was disturbances in the worship service....
There’s NO indication in Scripture that this was the case. What IS written however is this:
1 Tim 2:12-14
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1. Creation order is first mentioned.
2. The “woman being deceived was in the transgression”.
Those of us who believe in the Genesis accounts of creation and the fall of man know that these historical accounts will always be as true today as they were when told thousands of years ago.
The revisionists attempt exegetical sleight-of-hand, but they can never get around WHAT IS WRITTEN, and again, the Sprit through Paul explains this clearly in 1 Tim 2:13-14.
What then follows IMMEDIATELY in the passage are the requirements for those entrusted with the oversight of and special service to the flock.
1 Tim 3:2-5
2 A bishop then must be blameless, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 ONE THAT RULETH WELL HIS OWN HOUSE, HAVING HIS CHILDREN IN SUBJECTION WITH ALL GRAVITY;
5 (FOR IF A MAN KNOW NOT HOW TO RULE HIS OWN HOUSE, HOW SHALL HE TAKE CARE OF THE CHURCH OF GOD?)
1 Tim 3:8-12
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 EVEN SO MUST THEIR WIVES BE GRAVE, NOT SLANDERERS, SOBER, FAITHFUL IN ALL THINGS.
12 LET THE DEACONS BE THE HUSBANDS OF ONE WIFE, RULING THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR OWN HOUSES WELL.
Also, are there still angels?
1 Cor 11:10
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
It’s all in SCRIPTURE for those who truly desire to learn of God’s way.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 9:07:43 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1199
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
So am I to assume that some of you feel it is not a woman's place to lead a teenage male? What if the father of that child is not a christian? Are we not allowed to minister in this capacity?
The OP is a woman's role in the church, and children are to obey their parents...
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 9:47:43 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2413
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
So am I to assume that some of you feel it is not a woman's place to lead a teenage male? What if the father of that child is not a christian? Are we not allowed to minister in this capacity?
The OP is a woman's role in the church, and children are to obey their parents...
In the first century, when the NT was written, teenager boys were considered men, not children, so this question was entirely appropriate for this forum. Trying to avoid this question in this manner is a real example of "exegetical sleight-of-hand" because clearly Peter, Paul, and everyone else in the first century would never have classified these young men as "children". This is a classic example of trying to project our culture into the first century biblical text rather than trying to understand how those in the first century really would have understood that text. One of the primary rules of hermeneutics is that we must first work to understand what the text meant to those who first heard it before we decide what it means today because what it means today should not be drastically different from what it meant to those who first heard it. That kind of study requires hard work and diligence rather than the kind of pure dogmatism present in many of the recent posts on this forum.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 11:13:09 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2413
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
I find it very interesting that the NT Scriptures that are twisted the most are those penned (not written) by Paul.
Is this somehow a way for you to dismiss the authority of what Paul wrote?
quote:
Peter wrote about this:
2 Pet 3:15-17
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
A woman’s role of course is the most perverted subject, and this of course rages against God’s order going back to creation itself.
The Scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say, and for those who would add or subtract from God’s Word they should read Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, Proverbs 30:5-6, and
Revelation 22:18-19.
While most of us on this forum believe and trust in the authority of God's word, many do not trust your interpretation of God's word. God's word is inspired; however, your interpretation is NOT! A good example of why one would not trust your interpretation is apparent in how you used the verses you quoted above in support your view of a womens role in ministry; those verses have absolutely nothing to do with this topic. Do you realize that hose who disagree with you could have used the exact same verse you did? They believe equally as strongly as you do that you are presenting something that goes beyond anything that God's word says! The reality is this kind of rhetoric helps no one and adds nothing to the conversation.
quote:
The serpent tempted Eve by convincing her that she could be “something more” than what God created her to be:
Gen 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
That same serpent is still convincing women that they can and should be “something more” than what God has created them for.
Eve was not content to “merely” be a “help meet” for her husband. She wanted to “be as [a god]” and through her covetousness she yielded to the serpents deception.
Women reaching for what God has reserved for a few godly husbands only (1 Tim 3:1-12) is every bit as covetous as was Eve right before the fall.
No amount of exegetical prestidigitation will e | | |
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