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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 3:17:36 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
you have to interpret scripture. i believe paul is being facetious.
he also says to love your wife like christ loved the church. that is a tall order. when you get that done, you can start controling females. i follow JESUS. i don't wont to imitate GOD. i will never get that far.
If you are saying the Apostle Paul is being facetious, you are blantly denying the inerrancy of Scripture. It wasn't the Apostle Paul who said women can't be preachers, but the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul wrote those words down.
It is in more than one place in scripture that says women can't be preachers. There is at least 4 different places where Holy Scripture talks about this very issue.
God is the author of Holy Scripture, not man.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 4:32:38 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The reality is that even those scholars that hold to a "Traditional" perspective on women in ministry acknowledge the textual difficulties that some of these passages present to their point of view. While I can respect the scholarship of those who do hold to a "Traditional" viewpoint, I do so because they are fair and honest with the evidence, and they acknowledge the reality that other views are possible despite their disagreement with those views. If scholars who hold strongly to the viewpoint you have presented recognize the difficulty that some of the texts present to the views they hold, and they can respectfully disagree with scholarship that doesn't represent their point of view without calling into question the faith or integrity of those with whom they disagree, WHY CAN'T YOU DO THE SAME?
Because there are no textual difficulties. By putting on the face of respectful disagreement over "textual difficulties, " by default both parties must admit there is, at least, the possibility for the text to read in more than one way. If there is that possibility, then there is nothing to say that either side is correct - thus giving your argument added weight and merit. I could care less about your point of view or about my point of view. I want to know the truth. I have looked at this issue with much study and much prayer. My answer: it says what it says and, if we want to be obedient, we need to stop torturing the issue and just obey what is written whether you, I, or anyone else likes it.
Also, I find it odd that you would think that just because I profoundly disagree with you that I am somehow not being respectful of you or that I am somehow calling your faith into question. I have said, many times, this is not a salvaic issue, but one of obedience. If I were calling someting into question ot would be motives, not faith. To try to paint this in that way to to divert attention from the main issue, intended or not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
If you are saying the Apostle Paul is being facetious, you are blantly denying the inerrancy of Scripture. It wasn't the Apostle Paul who said women can't be preachers, but the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul wrote those words down.
It is in more than one place in scripture that says women can't be preachers. There is at least 4 different places where Holy Scripture talks about this very issue.
God is the author of Holy Scripture, not man.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Exactly, which is why you will often (in my experience more times than not) find that those who do not believe in simply taking the text at face value often also do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 4:40:24 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
If you are saying the Apostle Paul is being facetious, you are blantly denying the inerrancy of Scripture. It wasn't the Apostle Paul who said women can't be preachers, but the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul wrote those words down.
That’s right Sister, and well-said.
We keep hearing about “interpretation” when it comes to this OP, and yet we read in the Scriptures that “NO prophecy of the scripture is of ANY private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Pet 1:21-21).
Jesus said a certain blasphemy would not be forgiven:
Matt 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
As for many who try to say Scripture regarding women within the church was merely limited to the “time and culture” are also saying in essence that God wouldn’t be aware of changes in culture over the ages, or they deny divine authorship of the epistles altogether by saying they were Paul’s opinions.
Either the epistles were God breathed, or they were not. We cannot have it both ways.
When we read of who is qualified to teach and oversee within the church, we read very exacting qualifications that count most men out, and all women.
_____________________________
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"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 8:16:03 PM
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suzanned
Posts: 261
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
If you are saying the Apostle Paul is being facetious, you are blantly denying the inerrancy of Scripture. It wasn't the Apostle Paul who said women can't be preachers, but the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul wrote those words down.
That’s right Sister, and well-said.
We keep hearing about “interpretation” when it comes to this OP, and yet we read in the Scriptures that “NO prophecy of the scripture is of ANY private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Pet 1:21-21).
Jesus said a certain blasphemy would not be forgiven:
Matt 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
As for many who try to say Scripture regarding women within the church was merely limited to the “time and culture” are also saying in essence that God wouldn’t be aware of changes in culture over the ages, or they deny divine authorship of the epistles altogether by saying they were Paul’s opinions.
Either the epistles were God breathed, or they were not. We cannot have it both ways.
When we read of who is qualified to teach and oversee within the church, we read very exacting qualifications that count most men out, and all women.
I find it sad that you believe that those who are qualified to be leaders is so limiting, when we are called to be a priesthood of believers, called to desire all gifts of the Holy Spirit, called to be empowered through the Holy Spirit.
To deny that hermeneutical insight to the Scriptures does not apply is interesting. Scripture is God breathed, it is all truth. That being said, we have incomplete understanding of Scripture. No one owns the whole truth. The more we come to understand the culture, climate and conditions surrounding the letters of Paul, the deeper our insights to what the NT church was experiencing and how these new churches were melding the vast diversities of new believers into one harmonious community in Christ. We are still working on that today.
God certainly would be aware of changes, God is the author of our future as well as our past. He is the one who set up the OT laws that they not only took to heart, but became bound by and added to and began to miss the entire meaning of intention. God then took on flesh and came to earth and broke through the laws of men to show His law is of the heart condition. One that only God can see and rightly judge.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 12:00:46 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1158
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
I find it sad that you believe that those who are qualified to be leaders is so limiting, when we are called to be a priesthood of believers, called to desire all gifts of the Holy Spirit, called to be empowered through the Holy Spirit.
The priesthood of believers and who can and can not hold office in the church are two different issues.
quote:
To deny that hermeneutical insight to the Scriptures does not apply is interesting. Scripture is God breathed, it is all truth. That being said, we have incomplete understanding of Scripture. No one owns the whole truth.
I find it disturbing how there always seems to be some bit of agreement, yet it is almost alwats followed by a caveat. Something like, "Yeah, I believe the Bible is God's word and God says what He means, but..." Why is that? Either it is what it is or it is not. There's no need to keep acting as if we agree when we don't. You can't say that scripture is God-breathed and all truth in one breath, and then repeatedly deny it in the next. It doesn't make sense.
As to us not having a complete understanding of scripture, we all could if we would submit to the teaching and leading of the Holy Spirit. He is the Spirit of truth, He leads us to truth. Acting as if we can not get to the bottom of things is denying that God has the power to show us what He had written. If He will not do this, then why did He write it? If it is truth, then why would He write it in a confusing way and never let us come near it?
Someone does own the whole truth - Christ. He is the truth (John 14:6). Christ is God.
quote:
The more we come to understand the culture, climate and conditions surrounding the letters of Paul, the deeper our insights to what the NT church was experiencing and how these new churches were melding the vast diversities of new believers into one harmonious community in Christ. We are still working on that today.
And there it is. We have the Holy Spirit, the One who will lead us to truth; we have Christ who is the truth; yet that is not enough. I mean you no disrespect, but the line about "melding vast diversities" is so much gobblety-gook. What "melds" believers? We are all adopted into the family through God's grace. He gives us His Spirit. We know this because it can be found in scripture. I would also point out that there were troubles in the first church and we still have them today.
Either Paul wrote scripture or he didn't. If scripture (as you admit) is God-breathed, then we should be able to understand what God wrote as God-inside-us (Spirit) leads us to knowledge and truth about what He wrote.
quote:
God certainly would be aware of changes, God is the author of our future as well as our past. He is the one who set up the OT laws that they not only took to heart, but became bound by and added to and began to miss the entire meaning of intention.
Yes, and He went to great lengths to point that out in both the Old and New Testaments. There is no scripture saying the first church missed the point on who could hold office in the church and that women should be allowed to do so.
quote:
God then took on flesh and came to earth and broke through the laws of men to show His law is of the heart condition. One that only God can see and rightly judge
God judges the condition of the heart judicially. We are not allowed that, but we are allowed to make qualitiative judgments with scripture as the yardstick. Your point is made, but I do not believe it to be the one you wanted made - people were doing it wrongly and God showed them so, and wrote it down to be passed on. Your issue, that women may hold office inthe church, is not mentioned - unless you include the scripture that strictly and clearly forbids it.
quote:
I find it sad that you believe that those who are qualified to be leaders is so limiting
I had to address this again. You may, indeed, find it sad, but that is your choice. Qualifications are given for the offices of the church and, by definition, some will be excluded. The more thorough the list, the larger the probablility of exclusion. God knew this when He gave it. It is limiting, and God did it. If God did not mean for there to be limits on anything, He wouldn't have bothered placing limits.
< Message edited by Bro_Shane -- 6/3/2008 12:15:35 AM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 12:50:28 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2049
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
I find it disturbing how there always seems to be some bit of agreement, yet it is almost alwats followed by a caveat. Something like, "Yeah, I believe the Bible is God's word and God says what He means, but..."
No, it is more like: "Because I believe the Bible is God's word and God says what He means, I must reject your interpretation, and instead follow what God has clearly communicated in his word."
All of the "buts" I have seen are more like. "Yeah, I believe the Bible is God's word, but those women really were not deacons, ministers, etc... but, the Greek can be translated differently..., but Deborah was in the Old Testement and it's different in the New Testement, but...."
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 10:38:27 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1158
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
No, it is more like: "Because I believe the Bible is God's word and God says what He means, I must reject your interpretation, and instead follow what God has clearly communicated in his word."
This would be a valid argument on your part if interpretation were involved. As it is, the texts make plain sense on their own, they do not contradict any other text, and can be taken at face value. If those that feel women could hold office in the church would do what you said, there would be no need for this thread.
quote:
All of the "buts" I have seen are more like. "Yeah, I believe the Bible is God's word, but those women really were not deacons, ministers, etc... but, the Greek can be translated differently..., but Deborah was in the Old Testement and it's different in the New Testement, but...."
Surely you do not think that saying those of us who hold the traditional view have been the ones engaging in anywhere near the bulk of picking the Greek apart for possible alternate translations? What has happened here is that we now have over 200 pages of selective translation by those who feel women may hold church office - saying words translated "deacon," "minister," or "apostle" can only have one meaning yet going to great lengths to retranslate whtever they can find to change (or, at least, open up the possibility of change) what is written.
Deborah was a prophetess. No one disputes this. No one disputes there were prophetesses in the New Testament. What seems to be continually ignored is that Prophet was never an office of the New Testament church. So it doesn't matter whether a prophet was male or female, there's no office for it regardless of the gender of the prophet.
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Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 10:45:22 AM
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Asotos
Posts: 33
Joined: 5/31/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
you have to interpret scripture. i believe paul is being facetious.
he also says to love your wife like christ loved the church. that is a tall order. when you get that done, you can start controling females. i follow JESUS. i don't wont to imitate GOD. i will never get that far.
If you are saying the Apostle Paul is being facetious, you are blantly denying the inerrancy of Scripture. It wasn't the Apostle Paul who said women can't be preachers, but the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul wrote those words down.
It is in more than one place in scripture that says women can't be preachers. There is at least 4 different places where Holy Scripture talks about this very issue.
God is the author of Holy Scripture, not man.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Women can be ordained deacons , that is clearly stated in the bible and was practiced in the ancient church for several centuries. The practice of the ancient church is a good way to understand what Paul says.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 10:54:23 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1158
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Asotos
Women can be ordained deacons , that is clearly stated in the bible and was practiced in the ancient church for several centuries. The practice of the ancient church is a good way to understand what Paul says.
There were women who helped in the baptism of other women, but it was not widely accepted. So, even if we were to use this to help understand what was written, it would not be that helpful.
Also, if you look at the text, women are excluded from tha office of deacon.
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I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:13:30 AM
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Asotos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
There were women who helped in the baptism of other women, but it was not widely accepted. So, even if we were to use this to help understand what was written, it would not be that helpful.
Origen Clement Plini , later Apostolic Contsitution, St Crysostom and many others mention the term "diaconisses"..ordained women to the office of deacon. It was practiced in the west till the 4th century while in the east till 11th century
quote:
Also, if you look at the text, women are excluded from tha office of deacon.
For me the text is clear that women ordained deacon.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:18:42 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2049
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
Surely you do not think that saying those of us who hold the traditional view have been the ones engaging in anywhere near the bulk of picking the Greek apart for possible alternate translations? What has happened here is that we now have over 200 pages of selective translation by those who feel women may hold church office - saying words translated "deacon," "minister," or "apostle" can only have one meaning yet going to great lengths to retranslate whtever they can find to change (or, at least, open up the possibility of change) what is written.
And "we now have over 200 pages of of selective translations by those who feel women" cannot hold any church office, "saying that words translated "decaon," "minister", or "apostle"" must mean something different because they refer to a woman. The problem isn't that you make these interpretive choices, it is that you somehow feel that the interpretive choices you have made are more "inspired" than those made by those who disagree with you.
quote:
Deborah was a prophetess. No one disputes this. No one disputes there were prophetesses in the New Testament. What seems to be continually ignored is that Prophet was never an office of the New Testament church. So it doesn't matter whether a prophet was male or female, there's no office for it regardless of the gender of the prophet.
I think you need to go and study about Deborah, she was far more than just a Prophetess.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:22:35 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2049
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
There were women who helped in the baptism of other women, but it was not widely accepted. So, even if we were to use this to help understand what was written, it would not be that helpful.
When the history doesn't support your point of view, just change the history.
quote:
Also, if you look at the text, women are excluded from tha office of deacon.
But as many have pointed out, we don't agree that the text excludes women. That is simply and interpretive choice you have made, not something inherent in the text.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 6/3/2008 11:29:35 AM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:36:20 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1158
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
And "we now have over 200 pages of of selective translations by those who feel women" cannot hold any church office, "saying that words translated "decaon," "minister", or "apostle"" must mean something different because they refer to a woman. The problem isn't that you make these interpretive choices, it is that you somehow feel that the interpretive choices you have made are more "inspired" than those made by those who disagree with you.
I find it odd that you feel you must cling to the idea of "interpretation." Perhaps because it is the foundation for the baseless. There is no need to interpret anything here. It is plain and clear. Read it, believe it, do it. The only choice I have made is to take the texts at face value after finding there is nothing that contradicts the rest of scripture.
quote:
I think you need to go and study about Deborah, she was far more than just a Prophetess.
Yes. She was also a Judge which, BTW, is also not an office of the New Testament church. She also led Israel but told them it was to their shame a woman led them. Perhaps the need for study on Deborah is not mine, friend.
quote:
When the history doesn't support your point of view, just change the history.
What did I "change?" I said it was done, I did not dispute it was done - I did say it was not widely accepted. We should both know that if the RCC believes something to be right (and scripture does not carry the same weight with them) neither you nor I will stop them. Yet, for some reason, the practice ended. Repressed male resnetment towards our mothers projected towards all females in the form of opression, no doubt. 
quote:
But as many have pointed out, we don't agree that the text excludes women. That is simply and interpretive choice you have made, not something inherent in the text.
And there it is again. Please, tell me what "interpretive choice" I have made. Please tell me what I have had to interpret to come to my conclusion - perhaps we can come to the end of this "interpretation" fallacy once and for all.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:38:17 AM
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Asotos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
But as many have pointed out, we don't agree that the text excludes women. That is simply and interpretive choice you have made, not something inherent in the text.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but on Timothy there is a paraphrase on the English translation when Paul speaks about the deacons, when he refers to women deacons the translation says "their wives". That is nothing to do with the original Greek text.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:39:21 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 544
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Asotos
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
you have to interpret scripture. i believe paul is being facetious.
he also says to love your wife like christ loved the church. that is a tall order. when you get that done, you can start controling females. i follow JESUS. i don't wont to imitate GOD. i will never get that far.
If you are saying the Apostle Paul is being facetious, you are blantly denying the inerrancy of Scripture. It wasn't the Apostle Paul who said women can't be preachers, but the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul wrote those words down.
It is in more than one place in scripture that says women can't be preachers. There is at least 4 different places where Holy Scripture talks about this very issue.
God is the author of Holy Scripture, not man.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Women can be ordained deacons , that is clearly stated in the bible and was practiced in the ancient church for several centuries. The practice of the ancient church is a good way to understand what Paul says.
But women cannot hold offices of pastor, elder, Bishop as it says in Scripture. And if you look into the Early Church Fathers, I am sure the
Early Fathers are on my side when it comes to women being priests and Bishops. Deacons play a very minor role, and the the denomination I am in (LCMS) does ordain deaconesses, but they NEVER preach from the pulpit, hand out the Lord's Supper or any other pastoral duty. Those things which are pastoral in nature are the duty of Pastors and Elders in my congregation (yes they are 2 separate offices) and they are only held by men.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 6/3/2008 11:52:52 AM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:45:29 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 544
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Asotos
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
But as many have pointed out, we don't agree that the text excludes women. That is simply and interpretive choice you have made, not something inherent in the text.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but on Timothy there is a paraphrase on the English translation when Paul speaks about the deacons, when he refers to women deacons the translation says "their wives". That is nothing to do with the original Greek text.
Actually in Scripture, the office of deacon was restricted to men. But the "their wives" part was just to say how their wives are to behave. To act as godly wives. But I am not denying that the practice of deaconess was not around, and is still around a little bit in RCC, but it is not widely practiced. Why? Because women start to abuse their position and start to dominate over men. So to stop the trouble before it starts, the office of deaconess is not very widely used today.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:45:57 AM
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Asotos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
But women cannot hold offices of pastor, elder, Bishop as it says in Scripture. And if you look into the Early Church Fathers, I am sure the
Early Fathers are on my side when it comes to women being priests and Bishops. Deacons play a very minor role, and the the denomination I am in (LCMS) does ordain deaconesses, but they NEVER preach from the pulpit, hand out the Lord's Supper or any other pastoral duty. Those things which are pastoral in nature are the duty of Pastors and Elders in my congregation (yes they are 2 separate offices) and they are only held by men.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
I don't disagree with you, I said about the office of deacon only. Yes taking the letter of the bible women cant hold any other Pastoral duties.
I have a question for you though, by the same letter of the Bible do women in your congregation cover themselves with a veil (or anything else) when they pray ?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:50:12 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1158
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Asotos
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
But as many have pointed out, we don't agree that the text excludes women. That is simply and interpretive choice you have made, not something inherent in the text.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but on Timothy there is a paraphrase on the English translation when Paul speaks about the deacons, when he refers to women deacons the translation says "their wives". That is nothing to do with the original Greek text.
Gune can mean either "woman" or "wife" depending on the context. There was no word for "deaconess" until the third century. If women were to be included as deacons there would have been no need to have added them to something that already included them. With their addition we have two choices - either women deacons do not have to meet the same qualifications as the men, or gune means wife/wives.
Look at how it is used in the very next verse, "aner mia gune," translated the "husband of one wife."
Women can not be husbands, and they can not have wives.
This is really quite simple. SOme people make it much harder than it has to be.
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I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:50:23 AM
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Asotos
Posts: 33
Joined: 5/31/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Actually in Scripture, the office of deacon was restricted to men. But the "their wives" part was just to say how their wives are to behave. To act as godly wives. But I am not denying that the practice of deaconess was not around, and is still around a little bit in RCC, but it is not widely practiced. Why? Because women start to abuse their position and start to dominate over men. So to stop the trouble before it starts, the office of deaconess is not very widely used today.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
I have to inform you that "their wives" is a paraphrase of the original Greek text and interpretation of the translator at his will and nothing to do with what I have the privilege to read since Greek is my mother tongue and I read the ancient text.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 11:54:45 AM
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JesKlu
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