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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 11:50:15 AM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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Voluntary usually ends up being default care. Kinderarten used to be voluntary, now it's compulsory. Pre-K was only for high risk kids, it's now becoming open to all children so you can bet that in a few years it will become compulsory. Now the push is for infants on up education before long that too will become compulsory.
I've worked in preschool and have a degree in Child Development. I have news for you, even in the best schools, babies and children are warehoused. They can whitewash it with nice facilities and curriculum but the goal is to make money. They only do that with more children than one adult can or should care for. Too many paid staff eats away at the profits. I worked at top notch centers too that were very well respected in the community. When you have parents who drop their infants and children off at 6 am and don't pick them up until 6pm there is no time for parental involvement. That is the norm not the exception.
More kids in daycare over the last generation has not improved the academic standards when you see just how ignorant young adults are today.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 11:50:40 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1774
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Ugh, this stuff makes my head spin. It's dangerous stuff, folks. But it's been happening in dribs and drabs since I was an infant and before...so much so that most people think all this sounds like a good idea. That may be the minority here but we're not representative of the general public here on this or on a lot of things. Scares me.
Even if these programs sound like a nice idea for low income populations - it's not the answer they need either!! The family structure in this country, especially in certain demographics, in incredibly large number, is completely broken down. That can't be replaced by education or by government. At best, that is addressing the symptoms and not the illness.
What will Obama do to support homeschoolers? Was that the question in the OP? Oh, you make me chuckle with that one! I'm a private schooler (one tuition increase away from being a homeschooler) . . . you watch my back, I'll watch yours - we're gonna have to!!
And, in the whole section of the proposal quoted in the OP, the one saving word, holding back the floodgates is "voluntary" - how easy do you think it will be down the road to drop that one word? Then we're done for. We've got "voluntary pre-K" here in this state. It started a couple years ago when ds was still in Kindergarten. The preschool director at the school he went to at the time went just about into a full conniption when anyone mentioned this to her. She refused to have anything to do with it while other private church preschools all over town were jumping on the bandwagon and taking this state money. I don't care what little "good" they'll claim this program is doing - getting kids in lousy homes into a decent environment a few hours a day, it's not addressing the real problems those kids have and it's opening the door to a whole slew of new problems for all of us.
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 11:51:16 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
3) Totally agree that parents are the best daycare providers out there. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to stay at home. How does a single mother stay at home to raise her kids in a country that doesn't want to spend money on welfare? I don't get that - seems quite a conflict. "Stay at home to take care of your kids, but we won't provide any money to help you do that. We won't even provide money to help your kid get a leg up educationally or access to decent day care." I don't get that.
Stay home and be hungry.
Do most people know that Welfare DOES not help you get a 4yr education at college. You cannot go to a university and get help.Period, no daycare nothing.
It's crazy. You have 5 years to get your act together(under current law) but cannot go to a 4yr program.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 11:55:22 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1774
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The government can't fix everyone's bad decisions. Despite what we see everyday from day care to corporate bail outs, we're destroying ourselves little by little. As a country we are begging and pleading for socialism and might as well usher it in with a ticker tape parade....it's not just a redistribution of wealth, it's a redistribution of misery - there'll be enough to go around by the time Obama's done with us.
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 11:57:15 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
Even if these programs sound like a nice idea for low income populations - it's not the answer they need either!! The family structure in this country, especially in certain demographics, in incredibly large number, is completely broken down. That can't be replaced by education or by government. At best, that is addressing the symptoms and not the illness.
I agree. I think you need to treat both the symptom and the illness. There's some interesting work being done on this front too. One of the ideas that seems to be having an effect is to stop focusing on the adults. It sounds REALLY wrong, but the idea is that adults have made their choices and are largely locked into unhealthy patterns. The thought is that it's easier to see if you can engage those parents on basic education & life skill issues for their kids instead for themselves. It's odd, but people will do things for their kids that they won't do for themselves.
Early childhood education along with a high degree of parental involvement on basic life skills work seems to be somewhat effective in breaking the cycle of poverty in ways that other methods have failed.
It's no magic bullett, but it does seem to have some degree of success. Noone knows for sure, but it's worth a try and sure beats doing nothing.
Bad news - it takes funding.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 11:59:07 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
The government can't fix everyone's bad decisions. Despite what we see everyday from day care to corporate bail outs, we're destroying ourselves little by little. As a country we are begging and pleading for socialism and might as well usher it in with a ticker tape parade....it's not just a redistribution of wealth, it's a redistribution of misery - there'll be enough to go around by the time Obama's done with us.
Then the government should do nothing and let the less fortunate fend for themselves? That's not a country I want to live in.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:04:30 PM
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adelphi_sky
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No Child Left Behind left a LOT of children behind! Just because you get shoved into the next grade doesn't mean you belong there. The whole thing is sad. I'd be open to other ideas.
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:07:05 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1296
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
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quote:
Then the government should do nothing and let the less fortunate fend for themselves? That's not a country I want to live in.
Yeah, a little hysterical maybe? How many dollars are already being flushed down the public education rathole? One thing I agreed with Jesse Ventura on is when he said that there will never, ever be enough money to satisfy public schools.
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Molon Labe
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:09:26 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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The fact remains that with the current state of public education longer exposure to that broken system is not the answer. Have you watched Jay Walking on Leno lately? My heavens there are some ignorant people out there.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:10:59 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
The government can't fix everyone's bad decisions. Despite what we see everyday from day care to corporate bail outs, we're destroying ourselves little by little. As a country we are begging and pleading for socialism and might as well usher it in with a ticker tape parade....it's not just a redistribution of wealth, it's a redistribution of misery - there'll be enough to go around by the time Obama's done with us.
Then the government should do nothing and let the less fortunate fend for themselves? That's not a country I want to live in.
Federal government is too far removed from the problem to effectively provide a solution.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:20:57 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
The government can't fix everyone's bad decisions. Despite what we see everyday from day care to corporate bail outs, we're destroying ourselves little by little. As a country we are begging and pleading for socialism and might as well usher it in with a ticker tape parade....it's not just a redistribution of wealth, it's a redistribution of misery - there'll be enough to go around by the time Obama's done with us.
Then the government should do nothing and let the less fortunate fend for themselves? That's not a country I want to live in.
Federal government is too far removed from the problem to effectively provide a solution.
Probably. That's why they need to provide money.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:23:02 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The fact remains that with the current state of public education longer exposure to that broken system is not the answer. Have you watched Jay Walking on Leno lately? My heavens there are some ignorant people out there.
Then why is the school associated with the Baby College doing so well?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:23:37 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1774
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The fact remains that with the current state of public education longer exposure to that broken system is not the answer. Have you watched Jay Walking on Leno lately? My heavens there are some ignorant people out there.
Those segments are always mind boggling to me. I heard a survey here in Florida recently where over half of the state couldn't name ONE of their two Senators. There was more to it, I'll see if I can find it. It was ridiculous. Sometimes I think they need to ask those people the name of their high school US History teacher and go hunt down that teacher and FIRE them!
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:23:38 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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There are too many stupid strings to that money. It is a state and local issue.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:25:14 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
quote:
Then the government should do nothing and let the less fortunate fend for themselves? That's not a country I want to live in.
Yeah, a little hysterical maybe? How many dollars are already being flushed down the public education rathole? One thing I agreed with Jesse Ventura on is when he said that there will never, ever be enough money to satisfy public schools.
A little bit of hyperbole.
It's one thing to say we need to quit spending money in one sector. It's another not to have an alternative workable solution that's politically feasible. That's what I've not heard. That kind of rhetoric just leads to a standoff between the various interested parties and no other solution than the one we currently have which we all agree isn't working.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:42:33 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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For the record, I think the problems are all a bit more complex than what we wish to make them. I wish I had the right solution, but I don't. Whatever solutions exist, though, will require funding. Here are the problems scholars to date have identified.
1) Teacher pay. How do you get the best math teachers at $40k a year when anyone halfway decent at math can get an engineering or analysts' job at 80k or more? My wife works as hard as I do for 20% of the money.
2) Parental involvement. Moreso than even homework, parental involvement in your kids education is a much bigger determinant of success.
3) Resources. School funding remains skewed in favor of higher income communities. We have a subset of schools that remain inadequately funded. Kids need an equal shot at a good education. They're currently not getting it.
4) Family issues. There are a number of subcultures in the US whose kids do not learn certain basic fundamentals of life that middle class families teach their kids without even realizing it. How do you intervene in such cases?
5) Teacher education. Teachers are currently not taught how to deal with behavioral issues in managing learning.
6) Testing. Focusing on a single, high-stakes test results in a narrowed educational emphasis that's antithetical to well rounded education. Testing needs to be broader with less single-year downside risk to communities and educators while still accurately guaging and rewarding performance. School performance needs to be measured relative to a schools expected performance for it's socio-economic level and relative to year over year improvement.
That's just a few of the issues confronting educators today. There are more that I can't think of offhand.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:43:34 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
There are too many stupid strings to that money.
Like what?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 12:47:55 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
I've worked in preschool and have a degree in Child Development. I have news for you, even in the best schools, babies and children are warehoused.
For the first 18 months of my son's life, we had to use day care. We went back to it briefly when he was 4-5. Our experience in both instances was great. He had excellent caregivers using sound disciplinary methods and age/skill appropriate learning opportunities.
He loved it. Your blanket statement isn't accurate. There are good centers and bad centers. For the most part, when day care providers are paid at levels approaching minimum wage, it's tough to attract good people.
In the end, you get what you're willing to pay for.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 1:36:40 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1350
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The fact remains that with the current state of public education longer exposure to that broken system is not the answer. Have you watched Jay Walking on Leno lately? My heavens there are some ignorant people out there.
Those segments are always mind boggling to me. I heard a survey here in Florida recently where over half of the state couldn't name ONE of their two Senators. There was more to it, I'll see if I can find it. It was ridiculous. Sometimes I think they need to ask those people the name of their high school US History teacher and go hunt down that teacher and FIRE them!
Alot of those people were probably SENIOR CITIZENS...thus, their high school teachers are "unavailable" (As in, DEAD)
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 1:50:56 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Funny, Kerns. Somewhere in my computer I've got the stats on the proportion of the population over 65 in Florida. I think it might support your hypothesis. 
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 2:03:42 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The fact remains that with the current state of public education longer exposure to that broken system is not the answer. Have you watched Jay Walking on Leno lately? My heavens there are some ignorant people out there.
Those segments are always mind boggling to me. I heard a survey here in Florida recently where over half of the state couldn't name ONE of their two Senators. There was more to it, I'll see if I can find it. It was ridiculous. Sometimes I think they need to ask those people the name of their high school US History teacher and go hunt down that teacher and FIRE them!
Alot of those people were probably SENIOR CITIZENS...thus, their high school teachers are "unavailable" (As in, DEAD)
Unfortunately that isn't the case. Many are 20 somethings who are totally clueless. The older people generally are a lot more knowledgeable.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 3:06:09 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1350
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The fact remains that with the current state of public education longer exposure to that broken system is not the answer. Have you watched Jay Walking on Leno lately? My heavens there are some ignorant people out there.
Those segments are always mind boggling to me. I heard a survey here in Florida recently where over half of the state couldn't name ONE of their two Senators. There was more to it, I'll see if I can find it. It was ridiculous. Sometimes I think they need to ask those people the name of their high school US History teacher and go hunt down that teacher and FIRE them!
Alot of those people were probably SENIOR CITIZENS...thus, their high school teachers are "unavailable" (As in, DEAD)
Unfortunately that isn't the case. Many are 20 somethings who are totally clueless. The older people generally are a lot more knowledgeable.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that.
I lived in a "retirement area" (Northern Arkansas)....lived amongst MANY "older people"....you would be amazed at their "lack of knowledge"....
while, 20-somethings, in MANY cases, are VERY knowledgable, and even running for public office in many places.
I know that certainly was "more knowledgeable" about "current events", politics and such things in my teens and 20s than my parents EVER were....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Obama's Socialist Education Policy - 10/3/2008 3:07:27 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)< | | |
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I liked learning and taught myself. I figured if I had to be stuck in class I was going to learn the subject.