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[Poll]
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What role should the Church play in the Election?
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| Churches should be allowed to tell Congregants who to vote for. |
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| Churches should not be allowed to tell Congregants who to vote for. |
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| Undecided |
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Total Votes : 38
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(last vote on : 10/17/2008 11:10:50 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 4:10:14 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7763
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
I agree also, with the qualification that all churches that want to practice this way should pay taxes and contributions would no longer be tax-deductible.
The two are unconnected; a church recieves tax exemption for the reasonable assumption that churches benefit the communities they are in; political statements by members of the clergy don't change this.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 5:12:37 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 292
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Reread what I said. There is a huge difference between control a government and influencing it.
True, but I think we have tried both ways in Europe. Most of the really bad stuff happened while the nations were still kingdoms. The king usually wasn’t directly controlled by the church, but they had a great deal of influence.
And I will claim that the influence was usually for the worse.
You see, there is a second, more hidden danger in mixing faith and politics.
We all know politicians. They are in it for the power and he who trust a politician in an election-year is a fool.
If the church begin to have a greater influence on politics, the church will attract the wrong kind of people – the power-people.
It shows clearly in church history – every time the church wield political power, it grows corrupt.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
one that speak for God
I doubt any politician today or ever in america who proclaimed they spoke for God wouldn't be laughed out of the campaign. This isn't a danger in american politics.
I wouldn’t be so sure.
Of course no-one will come out and say it, but the idea is present. Read these forums and you will se multiple posts that insinuate that you cannot be a Christian and vote for Obama.
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ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I must ask...is there anyone here suggesting the church should take over government? Not me.
Good to hear that. :)
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ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Pastors telling the congregation who to vote for....to me, I would not like this. In my opinion my church does it right. Hand out pamphlets with each candidates stands on the issues and let people choose who they would vote for, hopefully based on their christian beliefs.
Assuming the candidates stands are correctly referred, that seems like a good way of doing it.
WormHeart
_____________________________
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Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 5:17:37 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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If the national income tax for both individuals and corporations were replaced by a national sales tax, and if local and state income and property taxes were replaced by state sales taxes, then churches and other non-profits would not be tax-exempt, because nobody would be paying property taxes. Then there wouldn't even be an issue of whether preachers could endorse candidates.
Another example of socialist (yes, I used the "s" word) over-taxation leading to unconstitutional intervention in free speech. Get rid of the tax and everyone's speech is free.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 5:29:20 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3962
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I agree also, with the qualification that all churches that want to practice this way should pay taxes and contributions would no longer be tax-deductible.
The two are unconnected; a church recieves tax exemption for the reasonable assumption that churches benefit the communities they are in; political statements by members of the clergy don't change this.
Wrongo. The exemption is because churches are religious entities that are doing religious activities. The guidelines are pretty clear. Churches and religious groups are in a separate category from other nonprofit groups.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 5:31:10 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
Wrongo. The exemption is because churches are religious entities that are doing religious activities. The guidelines are pretty clear. Churches and religious groups are in a separate category from other nonprofit groups.
Deciding what constitutes "religious" shouldn't be the government's business. A better solution would be to avoid property and income taxation at all, then the issue doesn't arise.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 5:49:09 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3962
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
quote:
Wrongo. The exemption is because churches are religious entities that are doing religious activities. The guidelines are pretty clear. Churches and religious groups are in a separate category from other nonprofit groups.
Deciding what constitutes "religious" shouldn't be the government's business. A better solution would be to avoid property and income taxation at all, then the issue doesn't arise.
The government creates the categories. The churches must apply for nonprofit status. They are free to not apply and pay taxes. The IRS reporting for religious organizations is less than for any other category.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 5:53:00 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
The government creates the categories. The churches must apply for nonprofit status. They are free to not apply and pay taxes. The IRS reporting for religious organizations is less than for any other category.
My point is that the government has no business creating categories and deciding what is a "church" and what isn't.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 6:04:56 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
The churches are free to opt out of this process by paying taxes like any other for-propfit business. They can then pontificate on political matters without unue worry. But there is that unfortunate money thing. No free tax lunch. Reality bites sometimes.
Luckily for me, reality doesn't bite much; I'm wealthy. If we abolished all property and income taxes, then no business, for- or non-profit, would pay any taxes, and it wouldn't be an issue.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 8:07:13 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 428
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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What really bothers me is that during election time people want to make it all about religous beliefs. It really peeves me that people forget who the President and Vice President are suppose to represent. They are suppose to represent "all of the people" not just a few select groups, whether we like it or not. Yet, every election Christians are pressured to vote a particular way. If you do your own research and come to a different conclusion of who to vote for you're ostracized. People label you as being unchristian and going against God. Unless God speaks to them directly and literally how do they know what God's will truly is?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 9:01:31 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7763
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Wrongo. The exemption is because churches are religious entities that are doing religious activities. The guidelines are pretty clear. Churches and religious groups are in a separate category from other nonprofit groups.
Well certainly; churches benefit the communities they are in; I didn't say anything about charitable work, and someone making a political statement doesn't change the religious nature of a church. This law was implemented in the fifties; nothing changed before or after this to justify gagging churches this way other than the fact politicians don't like being told what to do.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 7:18:10 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Well certainly; churches benefit the communities they are in; I didn't say anything about charitable work, and someone making a political statement doesn't change the religious nature of a church. This law was implemented in the fifties; nothing changed before or after this to justify gagging churches this way other than the fact politicians don't like being told what to do.
This is why property and income taxes should be replaced by sales taxes. It gets the government out of the business of deciding what "benefits" communities, what's a "charity" or a "house of worship."
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 8:56:57 AM
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Brenyada
Posts: 15
Joined: 10/4/2008
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This answer is a simple one. Which candidate and their morals and values align themselves with the word of God? We should never follow man and that is why this question needs to be posted in this day. A pastor should always have the heart and truth of the Bible and his sermons should be geared to bringing that truth to his flock. Your pastor should not have to tell you who to vote for if you His truth is always being preached. We are suppose to test the sermons against the Word. This should be a time of fasting and praying and seeking the will of The Lord so when we vote we have the His will not mans.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 2:07:39 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7763
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
This is why property and income taxes should be replaced by sales taxes. It gets the government out of the business of deciding what "benefits" communities, what's a "charity" or a "house of worship."
I would have no problem with that.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 2:48:27 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3962
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
This is why property and income taxes should be replaced by sales taxes. It gets the government out of the business of deciding what "benefits" communities, what's a "charity" or a "house of worship."
I would have no problem with that.
Meaning churches would pay the same for their purchases as individuals?
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 2:59:41 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
Meaning churches would pay the same for their purchases as individuals?
Meaning EVERYONE would pay for their purchases the same. No special treatment for anyone, no discrimination against anyone.
No tax breaks to grant or withhold as blackmail for what your preachers can or cannot say.
Tons of money freed up as additional income for individuals, who could then give it, tax free, to churches or synagogues or mosques or museums or hospitals or bowling alleys or whatever they wanted.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 3:06:55 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3962
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
quote:
Meaning churches would pay the same for their purchases as individuals?
Meaning EVERYONE would pay for their purchases the same. No special treatment for anyone, no discrimination against anyone.
No tax breaks to grant or withhold as blackmail for what your preachers can or cannot say.
Tons of money freed up as additional income for individuals, who could then give it, tax free, to churches or synagogues or mosques or museums or hospitals or bowling alleys or whatever they wanted.
Churches would then have to charge sales tax when they had fund-raisers like bake sales, etc. just like any other business.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 3:20:31 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Churches would then have to charge sales tax when they had fund-raisers like bake sales, etc. just like any other business.
First of all, no, just like you don't have to charge sales tax at a yard sale. Most model laws that have been drafted to replace income/property taxes with sales taxes specify that only new consumer goods are taxable. Used goods are not taxable, and home-made goods donated for sale are not.
Even if a church DID have to charge sales tax is such a scheme (and they woundn't), but even if they did, it would be a TINY PITTANCE compared to the vast amounts of additional income their members would have to donate, tax-free, to the church.
In fact, all "charities" that now rely on donations and tax exempt status would do much better under such a plan. And the main non-economic side effect is that there is no longer a question of government entanglement with religion. Ministers, priests, rabbis, and imams can endorse candidates or not to their heart's content, if they so choose.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 3:26:45 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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Because of your wording, I had to vote for the church to be "allowed". I think a preacher/pastor would be foolish to do such a thing, but I don't think anyone should disallow him from doing it.
My pastor can tell me who to vote for, if he so desires. But I have enough of a brain and enough sense to pray over it for myself.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 3:28:15 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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Boy, this thread looks like it's gotten way off course! I just came across it.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 3:50:48 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3962
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Boy, this thread looks like it's gotten way off course! I just came across it.
Unfortunately a horse only dies once.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 3:56:21 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1291
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
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quote:
Meaning EVERYONE would pay for their purchases the same. No special treatment for anyone, no discrimination against anyone.
No tax breaks to grant or withhold as blackmail for what your preachers can or cannot say.
Tons of money freed up as additional income for individuals, who could then give it, tax free, to churches or synagogues or mosques or museums or hospitals or bowling alleys or whatever they wanted.
Yes...
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Molon Labe
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 9:36:47 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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If my pastor advocated voting for Obama I would leave that church.
Fact.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 10:27:43 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 428
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
If my pastor advocated voting for Obama I would leave that church.
Fact.
So are you saying Pastors "should not" advocate who to vote for in the pulpit or are you saying as long as it doesn't go against who you'd vote for it's o.k..
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/7/2008 10:57:48 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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Churches that endorse a candidate publicly should have their tax exempt status revoked whether they are backing the Reps or the Dems or the Greens, for that matter! I am so tired of the "If you don't vote for so and so you are going to hell or you're un-Christian" argument.
I do find, however, that the Republicans use this manipulative tactic more! What better than the fear of eternal damnation to secure your vote.
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Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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