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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 11:44:35 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
then in my opinion, the abortion is completely justified.
I would consider it my responsibility to terminate,
because there's no getting around the reality that I would have to take my own child's life, no matter the circumstances.
Abortion is wrong, and an abortion is an abortion, regardless of the reason behind it.
There are no circumstances which warrant the intentional killing of an unborn child.
quote:
I guess I wouldn't be considered 100% pro-life then.
It's a heartbreaking choice
Based on your comments, one might find it hard to believe you are pro-life at all.
These are some of the same words the pro-abortion people use to dehumanize the process and justify killing an unborn baby.
They try to sanitize the process by taking a heinous procedure and convincing people they are making the "right" decision.
I know this is a difficult topic and I am sympathetic to anyone in this position. There is however a moral responsibility to protect the lives of BOTH the mother and the baby, not the mother at the expense of the baby.
Sometimes in saving the mother, the child is lost. While unfortunate, this is morally acceptable so long as the target of the actions are not to deliberately harm the child.
This is not the case with an abortion, where the intent is not to save the mother but rather to end the baby's life.
Here is a link to an article explaining the Catholic position on such topics which includes the discussion of the "double effect".
Ectopic for Discussion: A Catholic Approach to Tubal Pregnancies
Peace,
DNP
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 12:05:15 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4287
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This:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dona Nobis Pacem
I know this is a difficult topic and I am sympathetic to anyone in this position. There is however a moral responsibility to protect the lives of BOTH the mother and the baby, not the mother at the expense of the baby.
And this:
quote:
Sometimes in saving the mother, the child is lost. While unfortunate, this is morally acceptable so long as the target of the actions are not to deliberately harm the child.
Are the opposite of one another and I think you are getting into semantics.
The majority of ectopic pregnancies result in the death of the baby and can also result in the death of the mother. Technically, terminating an ectopic pregnancy before term would be an abortion. The differences made by the article you linked to are a bit silly, in my opinion. Salpingectomy and salpingotomy are so similar that to make distinctions as they've done is more confusing than not. And in fact, it appears the Catholic-approved method of salpingectomy would actually render a woman least able to recover function of a fallopian tube. Maybe solo will come in and enlighten us about these procedures.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 8:11:22 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3720
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
I do think there is a difference between deliberately and intentionally ending a babies life, and trying to save both mother and baby knowing that the baby has a high likelihood of dying.
So, your blog recommends waiting to see what happens and treating the mom after the rupture occurs, should it occur? Or am I reading it wrong? That's still not a risk I'd be willing to take with my family here on Earth. If that means I'm not pro-life then I'm not pro-life.
If the baby has an extremely high chance of dying, and a strong possibility of taking the mother out with it, then I believe abortion to be justified. A baby is not worth more then a woman's life.
So far I've not seen an argument that would protect the mother while still giving the baby a chance to live, so Dona Nobis can insult me all he wants, I really don't care.
quote:
Sometimes in saving the mother, the child is lost. While unfortunate, this is morally acceptable so long as the target of the actions are not to deliberately harm the child.
I've yet to see a medical example of this, especially in a tubal pregnancy. It might make you feel better to type this, but in practical applications, you're still telling a woman she must possibly die for the sake of a baby who probably won't live anyways.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 8:20:16 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
So, your blog recommends waiting to see what happens and treating the mom after the rupture occurs, should it occur? Or am I reading it wrong? That's still not a risk I'd be willing to take with my family here on Earth...
I'm with you.
People, an ectopic pregnancy is no more a normal condition than a aneurism but is just as deadly.
Fallopian tubes (nor any other body parts but the womb) were not designed to bring a baby to term.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 9:56:14 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5088
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
Sometimes in saving the mother, the child is lost. While unfortunate, this is morally acceptable so long as the target of the actions are not to deliberately harm the child.
This is almost always the case with ectopic pregnancies, which is what is in question according to the OP. Your comments to Sideways are completely uncalled for and rude.
quote:
So, your blog recommends waiting to see what happens and treating the mom after the rupture occurs, should it occur? Or am I reading it wrong? That's still not a risk I'd be willing to take with my family here on Earth. If that means I'm not pro-life then I'm not pro-life.
I don't think it at all means that you aren't prolife. You are simply pro-ALL-life, including the mother. I'm right there with ya though, and I am staunchly anti-abortion. (I do not call myself pro life because I do believe in the death penalty)
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 10:46:15 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
This is true...I just didn't see anything on that site about a pregnancy anywhere outside the tubes. <shrug>
They are called "abdominal pregnancies" in the article.
It is an interesting article, but rather flawed. She includes the rates of ectopic rupture which are 20% without any treatment, and then an additional 10-30% under medical supervision. She does not account for how many women receive care for the ectopic before it ruptures.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 11:14:35 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I think a tube may be able to carry a baby to viability with both living, since an ovary has.
Just FYI - there's difference between an ovarian ectopic pregnancy and a tubal pregnancy. There have been cases of near-viable babies in ectopic pregnancies where the placenta was able to attach abdominally. In such cases, you wouldn't get the life threatening rupture since the pregnancy is carried outside the tubes.
In a tubal pregnancy - there's only two natural outcomes. Either the fetus is spontaneously aborted on its own without treatment or the tube ruptures.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 11:18:18 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Just FYI - there's difference between an ovarian ectopic pregnancy and a tubal pregnancy...
Just FYI:
An ectopic pregnancy is a complication of pregnancy in which the fertilized ovum is implanted in any tissue other than the uterine wall. Most ectopic pregnancies occur in the Fallopian tube (so-called tubal pregnancies), but implantation can also occur in the cervix, ovaries, and abdomen. The fetus produces enzymes that allow it to implant in varied types of tissues, and thus an embryo implanted elsewhere than the uterus can cause great tissue damage in its efforts to reach a sufficient supply of blood.
LINK for more Info
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 4:18:31 PM
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phosadaud
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I could be wrong here, but my understanding (and least within the last few years) is that there have only been 2 documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy where the baby survived and both were attached to the abdominal wall. I don't have time to look it up right now though - I'll try to remember when I get home tonight or maybe someone has some sources they can cite.
I am very much anti-abortion, but I cannot in good conscience tell a woman that she should die for a child that really has no hope outside of direct intervention from God of surviving. That doesn't seem pro-life to me. I mean, who's life is it protecting? To me that is like the Pharisees not giving aid to a dying man because it was the Sabbath and that would be work. It's placing the law above the heart of the law.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 4:22:36 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
....To me that is like the Pharisees not giving aid to a dying man because it was the Sabbath and that would be work. It's placing the law above the heart of the law.
WELL PUT AND THAT IS THE HEART OF THE MATTER!!!!!
God designed only ONE place and one place ONLY for a baby to grow after conception. The womb, nowhere else.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 5:19:47 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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The few tubal pregnancies I have heard of the baby died on its own but if it did not I do not see how a person can call themselves pro life if they think a woman must carry a child that will kill them in a short amount of time. Either way the baby will die and so will the mom.
I am all for if there is a way to get the baby to a viable stage that would not kill me then yes I would carry that baby as long as I could. But if I am dying I have to think about the husband, 2 children and my mother that all need me. Dying for a baby that is not even out of the embro stage yet and will just die with me is not pro life.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 5:23:02 PM
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stellaluna
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I agree. And I think sometimes in the zeal to protect the unborn, people forget about the born. I can't really justify not trying to save the life of a woman who is already raising children, even if it means an unborn child dies. That implies that the unborn child is more important that the other children.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 5:38:46 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 2872
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quote:
I do think there is a difference between deliberately and intentionally ending a babies life, and trying to save both mother and baby knowing that the baby has a high likelihood of dying.
I do too...I think that I'm of the same opinion...that if I had an ectopic pregnancy, I'd likely not know it until it burst...and if I did know I'd probably just wait for it to terminate on its own. Then I wouldn't have to live with the fact that I'd knowingly ended the baby's life, even though if the baby had implanted in the tube he/she would not have survived.
Is there any known case of a type of IVF being performed from an ectopic (tubal pregnancy) in the same woman? That would solve a lot of problems morally for sure.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 5:43:19 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2477
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I could be wrong here, but my understanding (and least within the last few years) is that there have only been 2 documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy where the baby survived and both were attached to the abdominal wall. I don't have time to look it up right now though - I'll try to remember when I get home tonight or maybe someone has some sources they can cite.
I am very much anti-abortion, but I cannot in good conscience tell a woman that she should die for a child that really has no hope outside of direct intervention from God of surviving. That doesn't seem pro-life to me. I mean, who's life is it protecting? To me that is like the Pharisees not giving aid to a dying man because it was the Sabbath and that would be work. It's placing the law above the heart of the law.
Thare are more cases than that. :)
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 5:46:24 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I think a tube may be able to carry a baby to viability with both living, since an ovary has.
Just FYI - there's difference between an ovarian ectopic pregnancy and a tubal pregnancy. There have been cases of near-viable babies in ectopic pregnancies where the placenta was able to attach abdominally. In such cases, you wouldn't get the life threatening rupture since the pregnancy is carried outside the tubes.
In a tubal pregnancy - there's only two natural outcomes. Either the fetus is spontaneously aborted on its own without treatment or the tube ruptures.
Um, ectopic is ectopic. Like I said before, they will attach where they can find a blood supply...even in an ectopic position. I said I think that a tube can support a baby to viability if an ovary has. I do know the differences. This is what I study. :) And babies have been "born" viable even when not attached where they were supposed to be.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 8:26:27 PM
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fallenstar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
My wife had one. The baby died and the burst tube almost killed my wife from blood loss. IOW, the baby aborted itself and that was the first either of us knew about it - there was no decsion to make.
Your life was lucky to survive, but others may not be, so a medical abortion is needed. I do not share the same beliefs as most people on this website, but I do agree that when the mother's life is in danger, she should have an abortion because the baby will die anyways. As for banning all kinds of abortions, yes, that would mean even if the mother will die. ALL means EVERYTHING, no matter if she was raped or has AIDS that the child will be born with.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 8:37:20 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3720
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
I do too...I think that I'm of the same opinion...that if I had an ectopic pregnancy, I'd likely not know it until it burst...and if I did know I'd probably just wait for it to terminate on its own. Then I wouldn't have to live with the fact that I'd knowingly ended the baby's life, even though if the baby had implanted in the tube he/she would not have survived.
So, if you did know it was ectopic, you would wait for your tube to burst and you would quite possibly bleed to death? Even if there was no chance of saving the baby, you'd would choose possible death over an abortion, thereby leaving your children motherless and your husband a widow?
Because my children and husband are more important to me than my own moral reprehension over abortion. I would pay the price of a lifetime of guilt, because my children and husband are worth that much.
I'm not trying to attack you, Kim, but I really do feel that strongly about it. An abortion would rip my heart in two, but I would rather choose that, then leave my children without their mother and my husband without his wife.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 8:42:17 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I could be wrong here, but my understanding (and least within the last few years) is that there have only been 2 documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy where the baby survived and both were attached to the abdominal wall. I don't have time to look it up right now though - I'll try to remember when I get home tonight or maybe someone has some sources they can cite.
I am very much anti-abortion, but I cannot in good conscience tell a woman that she should die for a child that really has no hope outside of direct intervention from God of surviving. That doesn't seem pro-life to me. I mean, who's life is it protecting? To me that is like the Pharisees not giving aid to a dying man because it was the Sabbath and that would be work. It's placing the law above the heart of the law.
Thare are more cases than that. :)
Do you have any statistics or anything. I can't find anything but rates for ectopic pregnancy occurring as well as death rates and medical issues following this. The closest I've come is one statistic which stated the chances of a baby surviving an ectopic pregnancy was one in 60 million. In addition, I can't find any of babies born alive that were implanted in the fallopian tube which accounts for 95% of ectopic pregnancies from the statistics that I've seen. The only cases I've seen where a baby was born alive (I'm up to 3 now - one occured last spring in Australia) were all abdominal ectopics and the articles I've read indicate there is a difference between an implantation in the fallopian tube verses the abdominal cavity because a fallopian tube is not able to accommodate the growing baby - but the abdominal cavity may be able to.
I also found a sad statistic that worldwide, ectopic pregnancy is the number one cause of maternal death.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 8:45:22 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
As for banning all kinds of abortions, yes, that would mean even if the mother will die. ALL means EVERYTHING, no matter if she was raped or has AIDS that the child will be born with.
I don't know of anyone who is proposing banning ALL abortions regardless of circumstances. Overturning Roe v. Wade would certainly not do that. Roe v. Wade did not make abortion legal - it made abortion on demand legal.
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Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/7/2008 8:56:04 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 897
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quote:
So, if you did know it was ectopic, you would wait for your tube to burst and you would quite possibly bleed to death? Even if there was no chance of saving the baby, you'd would choose possible death over an abortion, thereby leaving your children motherless and your husband a widow?
Because my children and husband are more important to me than my own moral reprehension over abortion. I would pay the price of a lifetime of guilt, because my children and husband are worth that much.
I'm not trying to attack you, Kim, but I really do feel that strongly about it. An abortion would rip my heart in two, but I would rather choose that, then leave my children without their mother and my husband without his wife.
I know people who had a tubal and honestly everyone considers it a miscarr | | |
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