|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/8/2008 4:38:29 PM
|
|
|
TorchHeart
Posts: 1602
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
|
First off, I do NOT want people simply coming and posting in this thread saying stuff like "It's impossible! No Christian can be Pro-Choice! Blah-Blah-Blah!" Clearly there ARE people who identify themselves as Christians who are Pro-Choice, just as there are non-Christians who are Pro-Life. If this wasn't the case, this wouldn't be as hot a topic in churches as it is in our courts and government.
I will state that I, myself, am Pro-Life. With that, I ask this:
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
You don't have to site exact Bible verses for me if you don't want to, or go in-depth into you beliefs. I'm not going to rip into you for them, and hopefully other people will be respectful of this as well. I just want to understand this position which is on the oposite side of mine.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/8/2008 5:16:38 PM
|
|
|
SweetPea213
Posts: 63
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline
|
My Mom is a Pro-Choice Christian, and I was too at one point until the Holy Spirit changed my heart on the matter.
Basically my Mom says she would rather a woman get an abortion than to bring a child into this world only to be abused, neglected, suffer and to be unloved by their parents.
That's really all the insight I can give you as to my Mom's stance as Pro-Choice Christian. I don't share her view or condone abortion, but I respect her opinion and voiced mine.
I guess it's because of the election coming up, but I've been reading a lot of threads about how one can not possibly be a born again Christian if they are Pro-Choice. I don't ever recall hearing John 3:16 say "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life--except for those who are Pro-Choice".  I just had to get that off my chest.
That attitude from people who profess to be Christians just irrates the snot out of me!
Anyways, I hope you were able to gain a little insight about Pro-Choice Christians from what I know about what my Mom thinks. Please remember, our salvation is determined by whether or not our sins--past and present--have been covered and paid for by the Precious blood of Jesus Christ, not our stance on abortion!!
_____________________________
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." ~ 1 Peter 2:24
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/8/2008 6:14:00 PM
|
|
|
solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
For me, it depends on when life begins, and I don't mean biology/genetics. Not all Christians believe that personhood begins at conception... I know people will try to use Jeremiah and Isaiah...and Psalms, but none tell you at what point personhood begins...and many will say that even though the verses don't tell us, we should "err on the side of caution." I don't want to get into a debate, so I'll leave it alone. I just wanted to answer the question. (Plus the debates start going round and round in circles.)
ETA: If you want a few differing Christian perspectives, ReligiousTolerance.org (I think that's it) has some examples. I remember using them as one of the many sources for a few Christian Ethics presentations (on embryonic stem cell research, which hits the "when does personhood begin" question.)
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 10/8/2008 6:28:04 PM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/8/2008 7:49:25 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
No sin is worse than another in God's eyes. It's all vile to Him.
Abortion is not an option for me personally, however it is not my decision to make for others.
Abortion is no worse than the robber who kills for money, or the husband who commits adultery.
We all make mistakes and have the same option of choosing and receiving forgiveness.
Because it's babies, the unborn, people seem to give that more validation than they do ANY other human life.
The term Pro-choice is just that, it means we are FOR having the right to choose for ourselves what we deem as best. Allowing people to make choices and suffer whatever the consequences of those choices are. It's about me deciding that I do know what is best for myself. it's about me and so many others who want to retain the right to make decisions. It's most definately about NOT giving someone else the right or option to make decisions because they THINK they know what is best for me and my set of circumstances.
Do you or anyone else want another HUMAN to come and tell you what is best for your life based on their own opinions? To tell you what you can and can't do with your body?
If we allow policy makers this win, we can all rest assured that all of our decisions will be made for us.
Need an example? Look at the bailout, America screamed NO, and yet, they passed it anyway. Now, who is deciding what will be done and what ways they will spend our money.
Government doesn't need to be making personal decisions for the people, ever!
People who choose abortion will pay their dues in one way or the other. they will be held accountable for their decision, as we all will, in any and every decision we ever make.
God alone is the judge and jury, people just need to get out of the way and let God be God.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/8/2008 8:16:19 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
There does seem to be a rather large difference between pro-life and pro-choice, or am I missing something?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/8/2008 8:34:44 PM
|
|
|
solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
This Thread runs the risk of becoming a debate between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. Yet, that is not what the Opening Post asks:
"How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation to their Faith?"
One way of answering this is if we have some Christian Pro-Choice people responding to the question. As I'm not such a person, I cannot speak for them. However, I offer this:
There are some Christians, both here in the UK as well as the USA, who believe in the death penalty for certain crimes.
How do these people justify their decision in view of God's Commandment?
I'm pro-choice, but only up to the point at which the fetus is a person. I don't believe that personhood begins at conception. I do believe that when a fetus is a person, it's wrong to abort them... but... people have differing opinions on when someone's a person. I'm pro-life in that it's murder if you terminate AT or AFTER the point at which a fetus is a person. What I see is that when the biology lines up, that's when most Christians call that a person. To me, biology is separate from morality.... Science can't dictate to me when someone has a soul or anything like that. It just tells me I have living entity that is human. I believe the soul is received after conception. Some believe this point is brain function, some breathing...some blood... probably a ton more.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/8/2008 9:12:27 PM
|
|
|
solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
This Thread runs the risk of becoming a debate between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. Yet, that is not what the Opening Post asks:
I think, with the OP asking a specific question, a back and forth debate would be considered off-topic. :) I know there are Christians here who believe that life begins at a point other than conception, but with some threads they just end up being maligned and called cold-blooded murderers and that keeps them away. It's hard to talk when people are being rude and disrespectful. Perhaps they'll come now if this thread can just answer the OP and not go off to somewhere else. :)
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/9/2008 6:01:54 AM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
I do not approve of abortion. I do not believe that it is the right thing to do. I believe it is an abomination to God. I believe it is a sin.
Many people sin everyday and yet we don't harp on those sins like we do abortion. Innocent people die everyday just because they happened to be at the wrong place ant the wrong time.
I also believe that as free will agents we have the right to make a choice.
We all choose to sin in one way or the other. God still loves us. We still have to choose between Him and the world.
I don't believe people have the right to make choices for us.( Assuming that we are talking about adults with all their mental faculties in tact). Taking away the option of choice is a step in a dictatorial direction. The choice not just about life but all the other everyday aspects of living.
A person can be pro-life and pro-choice.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/9/2008 8:25:46 AM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6052
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
I know that I personally don't believe I could ever have an abortion - I remember coming to that conclusion when I was pregnant. Before (as it was then) the ultrasound at 16 weeks, you hope but you usually have no idea whether or not the baby is developing normally. I recall thinking about "what if something's not right?" but knew 100% that if there had been something wrong with the baby, and I mean majorly, I could not have terminated my baby. If it had been a life or death situation for me (ie me or the baby), then I have to honestly say "I don't know what I would do". I'd like to think I'd always put the baby first, but then, if it had been my second child, and I had to consider my first child as well and the prospect of him growing up without me, then I don't know.
That's my own personal feelings on the subject.
But for other people, I am pro-choice. Like deliveredarling I believe other people should be free to make their own choice, not have it made for them. That does not mean I am pro-abortion, or don't care about the subject, nor does it mean that I think it should be easy for women to get abortions. I don't know how abortion laws over there differ from over here (I am in the UK), but I am all for abortion being made more difficult, and the time limit being sooner.
But I remain pro-choice. I would say I am both pro-life and pro-choice, but I have had pro-lifers tell me I can't be both 
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
You don't have to cite exact Bible verses for me if you don't want to, or go in-depth into you beliefs. I'm not going to rip into you for them, and hopefully other people will be respectful of this as well. I just want to understand this position which is on the oposite side of mine.
I hope other people adhere to this too. (I'm not convinced this has been the case so far - and hesitated to post here because of this. I decided to, eventually, (a) because this is Torchheart's thread and I happen to trust him to respond appropriately and (b) to stand alongside deliveredarling).
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/9/2008 9:54:39 AM
|
|
|
Kath
Posts: 17140
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
This is the topic of the thread. Please stick to it.
If you are not a pro-choice Christian then I do not see how you can answer the OP.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation as to why one cannot confront a moderator directly.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/9/2008 9:58:35 AM
|
|
|
IonMoon
Posts: 915
Joined: 4/21/2005
From: The Unted State of Confusion
Status: offline
|
I am "pro-choice" in the same way as a few others have stated. I would not ever personally have an abortion (and I had two difficult, unplanned pregnancies, so i know what I am talking about), but this is not a decision for me (or more importantly the GOVERNMENT) to make for others.
I am not convinced that personhood begins at conception. So, I do not believe that abortion at any time during pregnancy is necessarily causing death to a person, and therefore murder. SO... I feel comfortable leaving that up to the people involved.
Edited TOS 18
Tara P
< Message edited by Kath -- 10/9/2008 10:49:46 AM >
_____________________________
http://www.geocities.com/hallscola67/KyliesHomemadeShopIndex.htm
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/9/2008 9:17:37 PM
|
|
|
bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
Status: offline
|
Even though I am pro life, I have a couple of questions here too.
1. How can we as christians presume to know at what point life begins? God has said He loved us from the womb. How can we determine when His love for us begins or when a soul becomes a soul? It seems presumptuous to me.
2. Saying that you are prochoice and that government should not be permitted to tell us what to do, what about drugs? Under a pro choice stance, wouldn't you have to support people's right to use drugs without consequence from law. Or suicide, which is also considered a crime. It's their choice, right?
3. This relates to the first question a little bit. Since science states that any time cells begin to divide, it is a sign of life. This starts at conception in human beings. This was straight from biology class, and pertained to plants. Do you feel that we should diffentiate the point of origin of life in plants and humans life differently? Why?
4. When a pregnant woman is killed, the killer can be charged with 2 counts of homocide. Since this is the case, how can the same government that made this law then turn around and allow an abortion without similar consequences?
5. In a nation that states that ALL men are free and have the right to pursue Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, how can we deny this same right to an unborn child?
I'm not trying to be divisive; I just want to make you think a little deeper on this issue. I do realize there are many in this nation who do not believe the Bible. But as christians, we are supposed to believe the whole Bible. As Americans, I think that most of us believe that the consitution and declaration of independence were God given. For those who do not believe in God, even they believe strongly in these documents from our founding fathers. How do any of these documents support your support?
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 6:25:45 AM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
I just want to make you think a little deeper on this issue. I do realize there are many in this nation who do not believe the Bible. But as Christians, we are supposed to believe the whole Bible. As Americans, I think that most of us believe that the consitution and declaration of independence were God given. For those who do not believe in God, even they believe strongly in these documents from our founding fathers. How do any of these documents support your support?
I want others to think a little deeper here too. Many pro-lifers jump on the bandwagon not realizing that while on this bandwagon they scream hypocrisy while using the Bible. They rant and rave about this sin while ignoring the others. They belittle, insult are incredibly inflammatory and totally miss the opportunity to witness because of their anti-abortion stance. Jesus is not seen and can not be seen in such hatred and anger. They forget that Christ died for that person considering abortion too. In an effort to save the unborn they ignore the living soul .
They would rather Bible beat than show the lost soul the way to eternal life.
They seriously forget that ultimately we all have a choice of life or death. God is Sovereign, no matter what choice we make. God knows the choices we will make.
We some how think that we can just jump right in their and get into God's way by "correcting" things, as if He didn't already tell us these things would come about.
As if we have a power that we just don't have.
We need faith, we need prayer, we need to let the HS do what He's going to do. Above all, we need to trust that God has His hand on this issue and will follow through with the promises that He has made to us in His Word.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 10:00:20 AM
|
|
|
solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
quote:
1. How can we as christians presume to know at what point life begins? God has said He loved us from the womb. How can we determine when His love for us begins or when a soul becomes a soul? It seems presumptuous to me.
Well, that goes for "life begins at conception" Christians as well, and I don't think it's fair to say this is my position, then go around being inflammatory to those who believe that life begins at a point at which you don't agree with just because it's different from yours. (I'm using "you" to mean everyone.) Many Christians who do NOT believe that life begins at conception have their Biblical bases as well. I don't go around calling people who think that life begins at a later point than I do murderers and cold-blooded killers. First of all, YOU don't even know that. You just know that someone else's opinion differs from yours. You say that based on what your personal opinion is. Plus, it's not the nicest first thing to say to someone if you're trying to get them on your side...or to even listen to you to begin with. (Again, all my "you's" mean everyone.)
I do understand the stance that we should err on the side of caution and go with conception for the point of ensoulment, but some Christians believe that their Biblical "backing" is such that they know when this point occurs, and they go with their Biblically-based belief. I do have issues with the conception crowd trying to twist to get the Jeremiah/Psalms verses to say that ensoulment begins at conception. Those verses say nothing about the point of ensoulment. Most everything I see there are about the foreknowledge of God, and I acknowledge that He knows all. All the Christians I know who believe personhood begins at a later point (including pastors) DO believe all the verses that the life=conception Christians try to use as proof.
I do believe that biology is separate from the theology side; biological life has nothing to do with a soul. Even at the end of life, we can keep biology going when I think a soul isn't even there anymore.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 10:27:18 AM
|
|
|
Kath
Posts: 17140
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
|
bravjim
Welcome to forums!
This thread is for those who are pro-choice to explain their position.
Please, lets make sure we stick to the topic.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation as to why one cannot confront a moderator directly.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 12:28:42 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
I was, for the first about 2 years of being a Christian. It was very difficult to change my mindset for coming from liberal Judaism I held a pro-choice position as everybody else i knew. Not as in justifying promiscuity/ irresposibility/ab-n as a birth control method, but a belief that in some cases abortion is better then bringing a person into the world.
quote:
Basically my Mom says she would rather a woman get an abortion than to bring a child into this world only to be abused, neglected, suffer and to be unloved by their parents.
That was my view for years.I have a social service worker friend here in US, she is a great Christian, still pro-choice. She sees things that mostly happen to originally unwanted children -daily!- that make the most graphic Court TV look like a funny cartoon. Some cases make national news , but here the samples of what she sees, i only give the mild ones, not to spoil anybody's lunch:
A boyfriend of woman beats her 2 y o daughter with the remote control , child later dies in the hospital from brain hemorrage; a 19 y o father forgot his toddler in the bathtub, boy drowned , dad shows no signs of remorse; Children born with “cocain addiction” or damaged by mothers alcohol use; a mentally retarded 3 y o boy was beaten by his alcoholic mother that broke his arm,
2 y o child was left outside in winter and needed some of his fingers amputated as a result ; preschooler was raped regularly by her mother’s boyfriend since she was 4; small girl’s hair is scolded by pouring boiling water on her head for she wouldn’t stop crying
Granted- things like that can happen and will be happening even if the child originally was wanted. But as a general rule, as she testifies, unwanted before birth usually, (in majority of cases , often, not always) turns out to be unwanted after birth, abused, tortured, physically and emotionally damaged, and later inflicting pain on others
Charles Manson is quoted that the had only one happy memory of his entire childhood – his mother giving him one hug after one of her releases from prison.
In terms of eternity being born a priviledged Paris Hilton,or a loved baby in a christian family or unwanted by 16 yo mom Charles Manson makes no difference. Either of them can potentially find God.
OP question is multifaceted, but for a Christian prochoicer it basically boils down to – are high likelihood of horrors in this life that unwanted child will be subjected to are worthy of ,as practical life shows, slight chance that child will be saved eternally?
For me it took some maturation to say Yes. Becoming pro-life was a terribly difficult decision.
Again may i remind what dear and patient Kath said twice -its not a debate. I am jsut explaining the reasons for position i had.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 1:51:39 PM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6052
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
but a belief that in some cases abortion is better then bringing a person into the world.
quote:
OP question is multifaceted, but for a Christian prochoicer it basically boils down to – are high likelihood of horrors in this life that unwanted child will be subjected to are worthy of ,as practical life shows, slight chance that child will be saved eternally?
For me it took some maturation to say Yes. Becoming pro-life was a terribly difficult decision.
The above is not the major issue for me. The major issue for me is one of allowing individuals to choose, in their individual situations, and not forcing them to comply by law. And of not wanting to stand in condemnation and judgement over those who have already had terminations.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 2:30:53 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
Totally agree with you, M.
I was answering the exact OP question about personal beliefs. As for imposing my beliefs on others, God forbid, I never would. It is up to a personal decision.
On a governmental/country/political scale I am all for availability of safe abortions, in a clean medical facility, so we don’t encourage the coat hanger ones. So i guess, in that sense i am still pro-choice :)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 4:47:43 PM
|
|
|
TorchHeart
Posts: 1602
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
|
quote:
because this is Torchheart's thread and I happen to trust him to respond appropriately and
I think the most appropriate response I can have is the one I've been giving.... to say nothing and simply read. This is about learning and understanding this particular position. That's why I want those Christians who hold this position to explain their views so that I can better understand why they feel this way, and want those who simply want to preach (and even condemn or condesend) to those who hold this view to bite their tongues and read as well.
To me, this is an issue that's tearing churches (and even whole denominations) apart. Many of us on this message board, from what I've seen, hold the view that abortion is wrong. But I know that there are those who do not, and I wanted to give them a free and open opportunity to speak without fear of criticism.
In short, this isn't a thread designed for one side to change another's mind. Its intended for this one side to simply be able to speak their peace so the other side can understand where they come from.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/10/2008 5:47:35 PM
|
|
|
solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
I think part of the problem is that those who believe differently are tired of being condemned by other Christians, when those other Christians don't really have any proof that their position is any more right than mine.
Calling someone a murderer (or pro-death) is a pretty hefty accusation, and if I'm about to call someone that, I'd better darn well know without a doubt when murder occurs. It's just rude to me to be inflammatory in that manner just because you think you're right. (You=anyone.) I do think a lot can be learned from just listening to each other without attacking...we can see how we're thinking and how we think differently, and maybe even see things in the light of the other side. I can see the traditional pro-life side...I know my side. I can see others' sides normally.
What I normally see is that there is a big difference to me between biological life and being a person. Cell division has nothing to do with a soul. If someone believes that we have a soul at the biological beginning, then that's fine. That's their opinion. I fully believe we can be biologically alive without a soul, and I do not believe that we have a soul when sperm meets egg. I believe that's biological life alone... but the "later" (when sould comes in) is different dependent on which Christian you talk to. Some believe it's blood, breath, brain function... birth/separation from mother.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
