RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation?

RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (Full Version)

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Chapmon -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 11:43:57 AM)
quote: Adding creationism to the Gospel is another Gospel, you can pretend that it isn't, but I don't. URforgiven, I'm afraid you are quite wrong. A simple case in point, an encapsulation of the Gospel at the outset of the Gospel of John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him [Christ, the Logos, i.e. Word]; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:1-5) the Gospel teaching is that the Creator (executor of the will of the Father) is revealer of God and the very Person who came to bring salvation by his own death. This presents some pretty significant problems for theistic evolutionists and framework theologians who hold that God created the universe through natural law, or evolution (materialistic determinism). The Bible teaches that God created the universe through the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus. Deterministic (natural law, or deistic) views of creation never take the entire Trinity into account. The Father decreed creation, the Son executed creation, and the Spirit empowered creation. In this revelation, there is no room whatsoever for autonomous natural law to operate. With creation comes control, which establishes (in our minds) the total sovereignty of God over his creation. This excludes natural law.

FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 11:46:37 AM)
It is possible to believe in "a God" without believing in creation. However that would require one stepping away from the standard in which we find all truth about God. That standard of course being The Bible. Without holding to the standard that God has revealed, it is not possible that one can KNOW the living God.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 4:08:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven What is wrong is to make yourself a stumbling block to others. That would be those who tell folks they can believe in Christ and deny His word is true... Quite the stumbling block... quote: Your continued attempts to trip me up only serves to prove that to be so. It only proves that I don't buy into believe in God deny His word doctrine... quote: Anything God blesses as an expression of Himself, He curses when it becomes a substitute for Himself. Saying God's word is true isn't making it a substitute. quote: It is not what we believe that saves us, it is in Whom we believe. One cannot truly believe in Whom when they call Whom a liar.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 5:52:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman Oh now this is truly frightening. I am agreeing with SoveriegnisHe. But he is right and some of you are wrong. I found at least 4 references to the creation in Mark alone. And several other mentioned in the New Testament. How does one say it is not there when it is in fact talked about. Heh... I was tempted to change my mind...[8D]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 5:59:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bravjim Throughout the old tesament, all men were spiritually dead according to the book of Romans. This does not mean that we did not have a spirit; it means that our spirit was dead, that we were seperated from God. Believers from the Old Testament were still believers, and they were able to communicate with God because they believed and obeyed. Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

facedown -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 7:47:50 PM)
soverrighishe so....you can't answer a very simple question - one that directly is tied to earlier comments you made. sometimes you souldn't suggest things, if you can't follow through their natural consequences, don't you think? what is the "dilemma" mean to you? and what does "deny his word" mean to you?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 8:20:54 PM)
quote: soverrighishe so....you can't answer a very simple question - one that directly is tied to earlier comments you made. sometimes you souldn't suggest things, if you can't follow through their natural consequences, don't you think? Asked and answered... You may not like the answer but I did answer. I'll suggest that people who claim Christ and deny His word need deal with their dilemma... Actually if I take your question as plain as it was written, are you suggesting that folks who don't believe in a 6-day creation.....are damed?* the answer would be, yes... God said He did just that... Calling God a liar is worthy of being damed. To deny what He has done is to deny Him. quote:* what is the "dilemma" mean to you? The word dilemma means something. Though I am not quite sure what you are asking. You may wish to rephrase your question. quote: and what does "deny his word" mean to you? It means what it can only mean to anyone since words have meanings...

Qtman -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 8:39:00 PM)
God's word does in fact say He created the whole thing in 6 days. Was this 6 24 hour days. I don't know. God is not limited to the same concept of time we are. A day may have been 24 hours, or it may have been like 10 million of our years. The point is what difference does t make. God created it. When? In the beginning. When was the beginning? How long ago was the beginning? I don't know and don't really care. It does not matter how long ago it was. What matters is He created the world. Genesis 1 says In the beginning was the WORD. The Word was with God and the WORD was God. If one does not believe in the WORD one can't believe in God.

Qtman -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 8:41:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman Oh now this is truly frightening. I am agreeing with SoveriegnisHe. But he is right and some of you are wrong. I found at least 4 references to the creation in Mark alone. And several other mentioned in the New Testament. How does one say it is not there when it is in fact talked about. Heh... I was tempted to change my mind...[8D] Don't worry John it's just the odds. Enough conversations and we were bound to agree on something. Don't hang yourself.[:D]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 9:11:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman Oh now this is truly frightening. I am agreeing with SoveriegnisHe. But he is right and some of you are wrong. I found at least 4 references to the creation in Mark alone. And several other mentioned in the New Testament. How does one say it is not there when it is in fact talked about. Heh... I was tempted to change my mind...[8D] Don't worry John it's just the odds. Enough conversations and we were bound to agree on something. Don't hang yourself.[:D] For what it's worth what we agree on seems more important than what we disagree on...

Qtman -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/21/2008 9:15:33 PM)
Very well said. I don't think we disagree on the foundational things.

Chapmon -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (10/22/2008 11:04:32 AM)
Is it possible to choose not to believe in some portion of the Bible and be a regenerate Christian? That is an interesting question and deserving of deep and serious reflection. It seems to me that people are often far to cavalier about their treatment of truth, but the Bible takes itself very seriously and so should we. After all, if God has deposited his saving power in his written word, we certainly do not want to treat his word lightly, do we? The question is, how important is God�s word to himself. David has this to say in Psalm 138, �I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.� Note the last part, God has magnified his word above all his name. One translation says, �for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.� At the very least, it can be said that God places his word on the same par as his name. If that is true, we are to worship his word as if it were the express image of himself. Some would accuse of bibliolatry at this point. Now, if I worshiped my physical Bible, they might have some cause to rebuke me, but if I worship the truth that is within the scripture, I am worship the God from whom that truth has proceeded. Can I prove this? I believe I can. Look at what God say about his name, and remember that his word is on par with his name as we saw in Psalm 138:2. We treat God�s name the same way we treat God because his name represents him on earth. Remember that God�s name is a word. We praise God by praising his name: �I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.� Psalm 9:2; 18:49; 44:8; 54:6; 61:8, etc., etc. We wait on the Lord, we wait on his name: �I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.� Psalm 52:9 We look to his name for salvation: �Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me by thy strength.� Psalm 54:1 We fear God, we fear his name: �For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name.� Psalm 61:5: 86:11, etc. We sing in worship to God, we sing to his name: �All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.� Psalm 66:4; 92:1, etc. We call upon the Lord, We call upon his name: �Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.� Psalm 79:6; 80:18, etc. We seek the Lord, we seek his name: �Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord.� Psalm 83:16 We glorify the Lord, we glorify his name: �All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.� Psalm 86:9, 11, etc. We could go on (we rejoice in the Lord, we rejoice in his name; we know his name; we love his name [Psalm 119:132]) and so on and so on. We are to treat God�s name as we treat God with praise, adoration, faith, love, joy, etc. And since his word has been placed at least as high as his name, we are to give all elements of worship to his word as we do to his name. Everyone should agree that when we praise the name of the Lord we are praising the Lord himself. In the same manner, when we believe in, cling to, rejoice in, exalt, glorify, praise his word, we do the same toward him. In summary, one cannot treat the Word of God to highly. Faith is produced by his word. Paul says it clearly, �So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.� Romans 10:17 and what is it that we believe when we believe God? We believe what he has said and what he has said is written in the Bible and is true. Can one choose willfully to disbelieve what the Bible says and be a Christian? Perhaps in Gods mercy and forbearance he will allow us to rebel against the truth for a season, but he resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Willful disbelief is a sin against the Truth and God is Truth. I tend to agree with John. To disbelieve the biblical truth of creation is, to some degree, to refuse to believe God, what he has spoken and since he exalts his word so highly, the sin of disbelief is a terrible one.

facedown -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/4/2009 4:27:55 PM)
quote: quote: are you suggesting that folks who don't believe in a 6-day creation.....are damed? the answer would be, yes... God said He did just that... Calling God a liar is worthy of being damed. To deny what He has done is to deny Him. Interesting.....

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/4/2009 7:17:04 PM)
Chapmom What a couple of great posts on the subject. Really thought out answers. To the rest: This question is similar to others we have on the board. What is the minimum for being a Christian what is the minimum for salvation, what is the minimum????? It strikes me with fear that such questions dont answer themselves. The answer is not what is the minimum we need to believe or do or think, but what is going to satisfy God so that we escape from the wrath to come and obtain the salvation offered in Christ. I just cant help but think that the question from the op begs for a humanistic answer that is set up to please men. Who cares about pleasing men? Who cares what minimums we vote in by some committee and present to the community at large as "This is what we are willing to offer God at a minimum and still have enough nerve to call ourselves Christians". I wonder that anyone that really thinks this way will ever see a moments time in heaven. I wonder that God will ever open the door to the Holy City for that person. In fact, its begging the question why should God ever open the gates of the Holy City to bring in such rebels and cowardly unbelievers. God is not letting in folks to the Holy City the New Jerusalem because a committee of minimalists have determined what God is going to allow so as to save face on earth and pretend some hope for the future. Shouldnt the question be asked? Dear God in heaven, open my eyes to thy truth and let me behold wonderous things from your law. But such prayers cannot be prayed, because the questioner is filled with unbelief, he is filled with hopeless wanderings upon a sea of lies. A snowballls chance in the infernal regions might be the answer, a splendid year of peace within the writhings of the lake of fire. Maybe the contradictions of disbelief and peace have harmony in the postmodern mind, but in the scriptures there is no such unity. Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt. Isa 57:21 There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked." Just how much unbelief are you willing to have at judgment day? What is the minimum that will spare your soul from the damnation of hell? What small bone of faith will you throw God to satisfy Him before you stand at the great white throne? Maybe those questions should be asked first. John

facedown -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/6/2009 8:07:48 PM)
john how does "unbelief" play into not accepting a 6-literal day moment of "creation"? what does that do to "belief" or "faith" anyways? subject it to some form of litmus test, or mental assension?

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/6/2009 8:25:23 PM)
Facedown: spoken like a true post-modern..... Faith is the gift of God, if someone claims faith and yet disconnects God from his own declarations to create in the manner he has stated, the question falls into your lap "why dont you believe what God has said"? You may ingest all the unbelief packaged in post-modern questioning you like. John

creationtalk -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/6/2009 11:10:17 PM)
FallingWest, It is not necessary to believe in creation (6 days or otherwise) to accept Jesus. However I believe that once you have accepted Jesus, if you ask him to reveal the truth to you and you truly seek the truth, you will find that belief in creation comes. There are those that will argue that you must reject creation in the light of "science" I can tell you that is not true. I have 3 advanced degrees in and the equivalent to two others--I can teach mathematics, physics, chemistry, and astronomy on the university level. I have a very strong background in biology (my father was a biologist). I can tell you that I have not found one FACT that contradicts a literal 6 day creation a relatively short time ago. Now there are all sorts of stories about facts that don't fit with creation, but when you start digging into the assumptions behind those stories, you find that some of them are on very shaky ground. I know some people who are truly trying to serve God, who love Jesus, and do not believe creation. But I have found without fail that in every case they have chose to not believe, not that the facts require that they reject creation. Most of these do not want to examine the evidence too closely. Science can be wrong (remember, the sun used to orbit the earth...). God never is.

JohnnyThunder -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/7/2009 6:51:44 AM)
quote: Man evolving from apes is the image Christ took? Christ took the shape of the animal that was suffering the most at the time because of the most complex problems that animal had. So yes I believe there is proof of evolution. quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe If what people believes change what words mean there is no reason to even discuss things... All points are valid and anything is possible. Yes. All truth is subjective. For example we all agree what a meter in length is. (100cm = 1 meter) However it's only because we all agree with everyone else that makes it true. If we all disagreed on what a meter was it would be useless as a tool for measuring things. quote: ORIGINAL: bravjim If you read the first chapter of Genesis, it is obvious that God was giving Moses the story of creation in a way that He and the people of Israel could understand it. I totally agree with this statement completely and would say that because the all truth is subjective as I said earlier that this can be applied to the bible as a whole as well. The writings of the bible where made for the people of that time and as we evolve the ideas of the bible become archaic and sound wrong because of our better understanding of the universe at present date. If explained now the bible would be different because it would be made for us with our new understanding of truth. quote: If creation isn't true it's all a lie... Restating from my above, all truth is subjective therefor truth really dose not exists in a perfect form here on earth. It would seem like a lie to you but your proscription is different then the people that it was being relayed to at the time. I remember when I was studying the Bah�'� Faith one of the things that drew me to it was this idea that religion needs to be reformed to better accompany the people alive today. The teachings of before where for the people of before and to this the teachings are complete truth because they explain to the people form before the teachings in a way that they can understand and apply it to their lives. As we evolve so must the understanding of the word evolve. I would say that if you take the bible word for word it is a lie to me because it dose not hold true. However the word was not a lie to the people of that time because it was reasonable and made sense to them. Remember where talking about people who believed kings where gods and slavery was OK. So god may have "lied" to convey it so the people could accept it with their truth, but truth is subjective; Thus it is not gods word that is a lie but our own subjective truth. Hopeful you would agree our truth is more advanced then the people the bible was developed for concluding that the word would be different to us now. However the truth is that the word is not different it is us who are different. I mean do you think we could handle the complete truth of god?

facedown -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/7/2009 9:35:00 PM)
john is 'faithfullness' a gift of god? maybe, maybe not; however, it seems you would also then beleive that someone who doesn't embrace a literal 6-day creation is thereby "damned", is that accurate? or is there some space that is "disconnected", yet "connected"? what, exactly, did god "say"?

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/7/2009 9:55:26 PM)
Facedown: Asking a lot of questions in a manner that suggests bias on my part doesnt negate anything I have stated nor does it give you any credibility. Instead of asking me a lot of questions why dont you just give us a short exegesis on Gen 1 that expresses your interpretations and be done with it. Put yourself out there to be scrutinized, stop hiding behind endless questions that dont edify. Correction I didnt say faithfulness I said faith is the gift of God. You should know I hold to a literal six day creation and I dont damn anyone for their unbelief. But I know what you dont like, you cannot stomach anyone that obtains truth without all the straining and discussion that you involve yourself in. You need a court of opinion to give you an opinion, that is your way its not mine. John

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/7/2009 9:59:17 PM)
Johnny thunder: What do you consider yourself to be in this place in your life? A Christian? Catholic? Hindu?....let us know so we can attach a framework to your remarks. John

creationtalk -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/8/2009 8:26:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven There is no mention of creation in the gospel. To add to the gospel that belief in creationism is a requirement for salvation is to present another gospel. Jesus said if you don't believe Moses, then there is no reason to believe him. John 5:47

drmark -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/9/2009 10:04:13 AM)
quote: Jesus said if you don't believe Moses, then there is no reason to believe him. John 5:47 That's not exactly how the verse is translated in most versions I've read, creationtalk. To rephrase the NIV, "How will we believe the claims and teachings of Jesus if we do not believe the doctrine and prophecies written about Jesus in the Old Testament?" Do you agree with that paraphrase? Is it a rhetorical question or an implied concept that salvation is based on certain specific factual knowledge?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/9/2009 12:39:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: facedown quote: quote: are you suggesting that folks who don't believe in a 6-day creation.....are damed? the answer would be, yes... God said He did just that... Calling God a liar is worthy of being damed. To deny what He has done is to deny Him. Interesting..... What do you find interesting?

facedown -> RE: Is It possible to believe in God if you don't believe in Creation? (1/11/2009 8:44:38 PM)
John not sure there is anything wrong with asking questions, especially since you yourself have asked me to be "scrutinized".... further, you asserted that should someone not embrace a 72 hour creation, then they have "disconnected" with God. no, you didn't say "faithfullness" but "faith". however, this is a tricky word, best understood by way of either in one of two ways: modern: mental assension ancient: way of life/being for centuries, those who have followed the god of abraham, isaac, and jacob understood not "faith" as in a modern usage, but 'faithfullness' - active, and participatory. contiuing on in this manner, for centuries again, followers of christ have understood the same. it seems that it wasn't until the enlightenment that things began to change, as scientific ways of understanding began to become present in the way folks began to relate to god and to one-another. :: a short exegesis? less about physical creation, more about the god who has created all that is, and the spark of understanding the relationship between the created and the creator. :: what i don't like? please don't assume so much. sovereignishe the fact that you would damn so many...over 72 hours. what about those who simply are either a) uncertain, b) don't care, c) are some-what doubtfull, or d) never gave it a thought?

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