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ex nihilo - 12/7/2008 12:49:06 PM
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NESS55
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in the Celtic tradition God created the world through himself so therefore God is in everything
in the more western tradition mainly the Catholic tradition and latter the Protestant traditions God created the world by ex nihilo (out of nothing)
the Celtic view clearly says that God is everything and therefore there is no such thing as nothing and so God must have created everything through himself
what do you think about this?
NESS<><
_____________________________
Zeph 3:17
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/7/2008 12:59:09 PM
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Jeffery_G
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Ex nihilo means he created it out of no pre-existing material ingredients. According to several passages in the Bible (particularly in Prov. 6), God used "wisdom" and "understanding" to create the universe. Since wisdom and understanding are attributes of God, it could be said that He created the universe through Himself.
Note, however, that this is not the same as pantheism.
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/7/2008 3:45:21 PM
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NESS55
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the logical conclusion leads to pantheism
NESS<><
_____________________________
Zeph 3:17
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/7/2008 4:14:51 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeffery_G
Ex nihilo means he created it out of no pre-existing material ingredients. According to several passages in the Bible (particularly in Prov. 6), God used "wisdom" and "understanding" to create the universe. Since wisdom and understanding are attributes of God, it could be said that He created the universe through Himself.
Note, however, that this is not the same as pantheism.
I don't think we should assume that God created the universe using wisdom and understanding as the building materials any more than a skilled craftsman uses wisdom and understanding to build the perfect table or countertop. Ex Nihilo means that he had no building materials save what he himself created. The universe isn't made of the stuff of God, it's made of stuff created by God.
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/7/2008 11:30:08 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
the logical conclusion leads to pantheism
NESS<><
Well, no; we create many things separate from ourselves through wisdom and understanding; they are not the same as us.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/8/2008 10:23:50 AM
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demolay
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However the Celtic traditional religion is clearly pantheistic.
I was reading in Dr. Henry Morris' book "The Long War Against God" where he claimed _all_ other world religions, except the 3 based upon Judaism, are both inherently evolutionary and pantheistic. In other words, they begin with a god already existing "in" the universe who "evolves" himself to become or beget the world. Judaism is uniquely the only religion that begins with a transcendent God outside the universe who creates it "ex nihilo".
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/8/2008 2:53:23 PM
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mariadreamer
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I think God created the world ex nihilo. The "western" challenge is seeing God somehow outside or "up there" separated from the world; in Eastern Christianity (including old celtic, I think) there is a distinction between God's essence and His energies. No one can approach His essence, yet God's energies can permeate everything. In the morning prayer we say "You are everywhere and fill all things...".
What do YOU think?
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/8/2008 5:11:22 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
I think God created the world ex nihilo. The "western" challenge is seeing God somehow outside or "up there" separated from the world; in Eastern Christianity (including old celtic, I think) there is a distinction between God's essence and His energies. No one can approach His essence, yet God's energies can permeate everything. In the morning prayer we say "You are everywhere and fill all things...".
What do YOU think?
I think that while God is everywhere all the time, He does not consist of the material world, nor is the material world God. God permeates the chair in which I'm sitting, but the chair is neither God nor a part of God. He is everywhere, and he does permeate all things, and He transcends all things, but he does not consist of all things. The material is not divine.
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/8/2008 6:16:43 PM
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demolay
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quote:
What do YOU think?
I'm not sure what distinction you are making between "essence" and "energies". Can you make a biblical reference that you can tie these terms to?
If you are saying that somehow the world _is_ God, I think that is falls into pantheism.
Again, Dr. Morris makes an interesting proposition of why all other religions are fundamentally pantheistic and evolutionary. Since all other gods and religions, besides the one true God, are falsehoods, they must in some manner be inspired by Satan. After all, all peoples have ancestors that once knew and worshipped the one true God (even if you have to trace back to Adam), but were led astray. Dr. Morris proposes that Satan does not believe that God created him; how would he know but by God's word? This would slant Satan to believe that beings like himself simply self-formed from the chaos that was before the world was formed.
This idea permeates all other pantheistic religions and gods, even today's seculare Darwinian religion. An idea so universal that it must be central to the thinking of the being who spawns them. Interesting, no?
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/8/2008 8:15:14 PM
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OleFitzHi
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Do you recommend this book?
quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
However the Celtic traditional religion is clearly pantheistic.
I was reading in Dr. Henry Morris' book "The Long War Against God" where he claimed _all_ other world religions, except the 3 based upon Judaism, are both inherently evolutionary and pantheistic. In other words, they begin with a god already existing "in" the universe who "evolves" himself to become or beget the world. Judaism is uniquely the only religion that begins with a transcendent God outside the universe who creates it "ex nihilo".
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/9/2008 1:09:04 AM
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mariadreamer
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I am definitely not saying that the world is God. What I meant is that God has His essence and His energies, and by His uncreated energies He created the world and continues to sustain it. This is why we can say that God is present everywhere, we cannot say that His essence is everywhere, but His energies are. Essence and energies are an important part of Orthodox theology because it helps us understand how the world was created and how we are saved. In Exodus 32, it says no one can see God, yet how does Moses see the back of God? How can it be "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"? If God was only essence, then how could we become "Partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) without being absorbed into His essence? We partake of His nature through His divine energies and not His essence (meaning we do not become gods in essence when we commune with God).
Examples of God's essence:
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM
John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one.
Examples of manifestations of God's energies in the Bible:
Ezekiel 10:4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Colossians 1:9-14 "strengthened with His might..."
Hebrews 1:2-3 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power.."
1 John 1:5 ("God is light")
I would not agree that all other religions are ENTIRELY false. I think people always perceived God's energies to some extent (as Romans says) and their beliefs that God is everything is well-intentioned but misguided of course. Christ reveals that which is truth. The matter is not God, but God is present in the matter by means of His energies.
What do you mean by celtic tradition? Are you talking about the celtic paganism or celtic christianity? I know that Christianity came to fulfill what paganism was longing for and prefigured in some sense. Celtic Christian monks were known for studying pagan traditions as well not to become pagans but to show them how Christ fulfills everything. I think most of that Celtic Christianity was lost when the Roman Church brought its bishops in around the 11th century. But I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to.
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: ex nihilo - 12/9/2008 10:23:24 AM
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demolay
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
Do you recommend this book?
quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
However the Celtic traditional religion is clearly pantheistic.
I was reading in Dr. Henry Morris' book "The Long War Against God" where he claimed _all_ other world religions, except the 3 based upon Judaism, are both inherently evolutionary and pantheistic. In other words, they begin with a god already existing "in" the universe who "evolves" himself to become or beget the world. Judaism is uniquely the only religion that begins with a transcendent God outside the universe who creates it "ex nihilo".
I do, but it is not light reading. Its written with a ton of source references for further investigation. The main theme of the book is to trace the genesis of the ideas behind Darwinian evolution, from recent history, through the renaissance, the Greeks, all the way back to Babel. If you're interested in the history of evolution, with commentary of its impacts upon society and spiritual warfare aspects, this may be for you.
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