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C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/13/2008 3:37:57 PM
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terryjohn
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C.S. Lewis a universalist? Shall all be saved?
"... the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me ... no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truely sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. and if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted ... But I said ... I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truely. For all find what they truely seek."
From C. S. Lewis' The Last Battle.
Given the fact that every one will in the end confess Christ what is the point of eternal damnation?
Romans 14:11 NIV
It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "
Philippians 2:10 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/14/2008 2:08:08 PM
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Ps103
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Read Surprised by Joy (his autobiography). At the end you will see that he was definitely *not* a universalist.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/14/2008 4:51:25 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Read Surprised by Joy (his autobiography). At the end you will see that he was definitely *not* a universalist.
Ps103
I read The Last Battle years ago and to the extent that the Narnia series reflects his theology, he would be a universalist in particular one sense. Anyone who is sincere, committed to his belief system and moral would ultimately go to heaven. I did not read his autobiography so I cannot be firm in that description.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/14/2008 5:00:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Read Surprised by Joy (his autobiography). At the end you will see that he was definitely *not* a universalist.
Ps103
I read The Last Battle years ago and to the extent that the Narnia series reflects his theology, he would be a universalist in particular one sense. Anyone who is sincere, committed to his belief system and moral would ultimately go to heaven. I did not read his autobiography so I cannot be firm in that description.
I believe this is a great illustration that Mr. Lewis tends to be allover the place regarding whatever is he believes...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 10:18:18 AM
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raivyne
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I thought he began as an agnostic and ended up a Christian? If that's true, you'd really have to put his different books into the context of where he was spiritually when he wrote them.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 10:27:44 AM
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Eutychus
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His The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe is the strongest analogy of what Jesus did that I've ever come across. And his non-fiction works, Mere Christianity, etc. didn't give me any indication that he was a universalist.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 10:27:47 AM
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laura...
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I wouldn't judge CS Lewis's theology on his children's fiction writing. Far better to look at his works of apologetics and his autobiography. Mere Christianity is definitely not universalist.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 10:41:13 AM
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HardKnox
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Lewis is duelistic. His personal account of salvation is Calvinistic, but his philosophy of general salvation is much more open-ended. I agree that the Calormen, "Emeth's", testimony is indeed universalism. It is no accident that the name "Emeth" is the word for "truth" in Hebrew. And one should pay attention to Lewis's views in his children's stories because it is here that he is teaching children.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 11:11:59 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
C.S.Lewis a universalist?
NO
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are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 11:34:36 AM
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HardKnox
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
C.S.Lewis a universalist?
NO
He may not have been, but he did teach it.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 12:38:28 PM
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Ps103
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When I read fiction, I take it as fiction, not fact.
I have not read the particular book described, but I would not take it as a theological handbook. I adore his Space Trilogy, but do not assume that he believed it was a rendering of facts or that everything said by the characters was believed by him.
I also do not believe that anyone who is not a Calvinist is a Universalist. That is like saying "where there is a hat rack there is a hat."
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 1:43:04 PM
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HardKnox
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Ps103,
quote:
When I read fiction, I take it as fiction, not fact.
Not all people do, though, especially not children. Besides, fiction writers almost always intend to teach something through the scenario they create, to set the conditions for the conveyance of a point of view. Every child (at least in Christian families) who reads the Chronicles of Narnia knows that the author is making allegorical parallels, clearly seen, for instance, in the substitutional death of Aslan in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Allegories and parallels run throughout the series, giving life to Christian doctrines. The picture of Emeth, at the very end of the series, going to “heaven”, having been a worshiper of Tash, the nether god of death to the Calormenes, is very clear. Lewis even takes the time to give a commentary on it, which is quoted in the OP. It is blatant universalism.
quote:
I have not read the particular book described, but I would not take it as a theological handbook.
Once again, that is because you are a mature adult.
quote:
I adore his Space Trilogy, but do not assume that he believed it was a rendering of facts or that everything said by the characters was believed by him.
Facts are not the issue. Principles are.
quote:
I also do not believe that anyone who is not a Calvinist is a Universalist. That is like saying "where there is a hat rack there is a hat."
Neither do I. I think you may have misunderstood me. I said Lewis represents his own conversion as if he were invaded by the grace fo God. He does not see this as applyng to salvation generally.
I will say this, I agree with anyone who says Lewis is not a theologian. Unfortunately, and I think those who are familiar with the Inkling groupies particularly, far too many Christians do consider him to be one. I’ve heard of him referred to as a theologian (among other titles, philosopher, apologist, literary scholar, etc.) for over 30 years, now.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 5:06:06 PM
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zoebob
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In the Last Battle that is not even universalism that he is preaching. He is not claiming that everyone goes to heaven. He is speaking to the heart condition of the person involved.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/15/2008 5:17:36 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
In the Last Battle that is not even universalism that he is preaching. He is not claiming that everyone goes to heaven. He is speaking to the heart condition of the person involved.
You know, you're right. I guess I got caught up in the terminology. I've meant pluralism all this time. He's definitely putting forth pluralism, the idea that the orientation does not matter, simply the heart condition. Problem is, "There is no other name under heaven by which a man can be saved than the name of Jesus." The name of Jesus is the power of Christ. No one can have the right heart attitude without having been introduced to Jesus. One cannot worship Allah and be thinking Christ. That is pluralism. There is no saving power in the name Allah.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/16/2008 12:32:57 AM
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Ps103
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quote:
Not all people do, though, especially not children.
Well, I guess we should keep children from reading them, lest they start to believe Jesus is a big, talking lion...
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/16/2008 12:34:11 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Well, I guess we should keep children from reading them, lest they start to believe Jesus is a big, talking lion...
Whoa whoa whoa, wait just a minute. You mean He's not?
...Man. : (
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/16/2008 1:54:47 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
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To answer the OP, I don't know if he is or not, but that last book always made me sad. It's the worst book in the series.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/16/2008 9:55:13 AM
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Him4all
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According to the following universalism website Lewis was not a universalist. If a website dedicated to such a belief doesn't think he was...he probably wasn't.
The following URL was a short one page commentary on the subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/cs-lewis.htm
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/16/2008 10:44:59 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
In the Last Battle that is not even universalism that he is preaching. He is not claiming that everyone goes to heaven. He is speaking to the heart condition of the person involved.
You know, you're right. I guess I got caught up in the terminology. I've meant pluralism all this time. He's definitely putting forth pluralism, the idea that the orientation does not matter, simply the heart condition. Problem is, "There is no other name under heaven by which a man can be saved than the name of Jesus." The name of Jesus is the power of Christ. No one can have the right heart attitude without having been introduced to Jesus. One cannot worship Allah and be thinking Christ. That is pluralism. There is no saving power in the name Allah.
I always had the idea that he was talking about people who had never heard about Christ. That their heart condition did make a difference. No one can be thinking Christ who has not heard of Christ.
That is my favorite book in the series.
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Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/16/2008 4:52:59 PM
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HardKnox
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Coeur,
I agree, but pluralism basically takes that a person who, say, lives in India and has been a Hindu all there lives, lives in the wilderness of the Deccan where possibly no missionary has ever been... this person, by contemplating nature and their own religion can begin to desire and contemplate a truth behind the myth that is essentially Christ. Or that the sincerity of their loving devotion to Kali is so pure that God will take it as devotion to himself. In The Last Battle, Emeth has always given himself heart and soul to Tash and has come to ascribe to Tash the attributes that belong to Aslan. This is the core doctrine of Pearl Buck, Norman Vincent Peale, and Robert Schuller, the "wideness in God's mercy", as he calls it. Billy Graham agrees with this doctrine. Lewis gave it a certain philosophical respectability, not just in The Last Battle, but it is amplified in Til We Have Faces as well.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/16/2008 5:30:32 PM
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Him4all
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HardKnox,
quote:
this person, by contemplating nature and their own religion can begin to desire and contemplate a truth behind the myth that is essentially Christ.
Sounds good. It's also noteable that you mention the people you do supporting such an idea. The only problem I have is...I don't care if Billy said it, where's it at in the bible? I think that views like this come from "spiritual men" being 'too mental' and "philosophical men" who aren't 'too biblical'.
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/18/2008 12:35:35 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
I always had the idea that he was talking about people who had never heard about Christ. That their heart condition did make a difference. No one can be thinking Christ who has not heard of Christ.
That is my favorite book in the series.
That is quite possible too.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/19/2008 6:06:49 PM
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Him4all
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CoeurdeLeon ,
quote:
I always had the idea that he was talking about people who had never heard about Christ. That their heart condition did make a difference. No one can be thinking Christ who has not heard of Christ.
Your above thought is scriptural.
ROM 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
The question is, does this scriptural "heart condition" free them from the mandate of calling upon the only name that's named for salvation? Maybe Lewis wrestled with that very thought too.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: C.S.Lewis a universalist? - 12/19/2008 9:10:52 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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Thanks, Him4all, HardKnox and GrahamCracker...
quote:
Maybe Lewis wrestled with that very thought too.
Perhaps he did. Or maybe he wasn't trying to answer that question at all. Maybe he wrote that concept into a children's book to demonstrate something important.
You know, one of my other favorites is The Great Divorce. But I don't look at that as the last word on Heaven and Hell. It's surely got some Scriptural flaws in it somewhere. And yet it demonstrates some very important and abstract concepts that would not come across as well had it been written differently.
That's how I see The Last Battle. The point that I truly think Lewis makes is that God is trustworthy. That God is Just and Good and we can trust Him to have made provision, whatever that may be, for those who would have chosen Him but never had the chance.
I just don't see this children's book as something to dissect and determine Lewis' theology by.
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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