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RE: I did it - 5/12/2009 10:07:08 PM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Holdcard
I know what your saying (I think). Unfortunately I was only given a small area to work in. I have tried reducing the DOF on some shots at the Botanical Gardens with limited success, I still have some learning to do. Maybe I should get one of those pocket slide rule thingys that helps you calculate the DOF. It would give me a place to start until I get a feel for it. I'll have to try using the longer lens and maybe look into an extender. I could have used the 105mm macro lens, wonder how that would have worked. I also have a 70-300mm lens. I really would like to have a place to set up and practice, so far a lot of my practice is on the job so to speak.
Both of those lenses are worth experimenting with. You'll need a little room for the 70-300mm and you don't want to go out to the very end of the zoom; but, if it's a good lens it should help in separating the subject from the background. The only way to know is to try it.
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I've come to realize that doing a photo shoot (especially a free one) is a lot like buying a used car. You tell them what you need and they promise to meet your needs and expectations. However when you get the car home you find out it's not all they made it out to be. Maybe I should start charging, then people would want to get their moneys worth and listen a little better to the photographer. I have no idea what to charge or what to offer. My family and some friends keep telling me that I should go pro, but I don't think I am ready yet. Granted I'm getting closer but not there yet.
A shoot in a non-studio situation is pretty chaotic and non-optimal. Even so, every shoot offers a chance to learn something in the quest toward excellence. Just about the time I think I have something right, I learn an exception to the rule. But, that's OK. Both of us keep getting closer to our goals and that is a great thing. Going pro too early or without having gone through some of these frustrations would leave you right where your friend is... mediocre.
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What makes it a little more frustrating for me in this case is that they are photographers. They've done weddings portraits etc. He's helped some, but is content to be an average photographer, so they are pleased with average shots and that's the way the set up the space for me to use. They set it all up intending on average shots. I'm sure all the photos will look good in a scrap book which is all they were after. Although most are satisfied with average shots, I am not. I may never be featured in any photography magazines but I do want to be the best I can be and give the best gift I can.
I'm appalled at the quality of the wedding photography I see on the web by people claiming to be professionals. I fell for that when I was publishing music. I hired the wife of a friend who was a full time photographer to take pictures of the artist. I was shocked by the so-called lighting she brought to the shoot. I had better lighting equipment than her! Every photo was too dark and too noisy. Yet, I paid $800 for the 1/2 day shoot. At the time I assumed wedding phtographers must be good. I vowed not to make that mistake again. 
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I liked the photos you posted, my favorites are the shelf with the multicolored pots and the sphere. On the sphere shot are you looking through the sphere or is that a reflection back at you? If it is a reflection where did you put the camera?
I like that one too. I cropped myself out of the image of the sphere. I tried hiding in the flowers; but, that was only marginally successful. 
quote:
On the image with the 3 girls, where would you have cropped it? Just the faces?
Thanks again,
Holdcard
Experimenting with the potential, it turned out that you have several pictures in that one photo. First, I'd crop at 4x3 ratio that includes the 3 females with the bottom of the crop just below the bustline. The accessories on the background don't help. But, just include at least a part of the frame to the right and the mask just above them. Then I also found that cropping a 3x4 ratio that just includes the two right subjects and another that just includes the two left subjects was also pleasing. Again, crop from just above their heads to just below the bustline. So, at least three nice pictures can be extracted from the one photo. I especially like the crop that just includes the two females on the right. The sharpness and color is very, very nice. The tilt of the head of the tall subject just makes the photo come alive with personality.
I can put them on Flickr if you don't mind.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 5/12/2009 10:27:25 PM >
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RE: I did it - 5/13/2009 11:59:22 AM
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Holdcard
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Yes, please do put them on Flicker if you wouldn't mind. This is one of the areas I'm lacking in. I've read up a little on composition and must admit much of it has left me baffled. I can see what they mean from the examples they post in their lessons but when I'm working on my own photos I get lost fast. Out of all the photos I took at the party I see potential I just am not quite sure what to do with it. Those were shot in RAW and converted with Photoshop Elements. (Nikons program is $179.00, I haven't gotten around to installing the 60 day free trial)
I will play with the lenses, I may even rent a few different ones to see if I like them. For now, I think I have a decent collection with the 3 I have. They are good lenses, I just need to investigate them more thoroughly. Again remembering what I've learned comes into play. I've done a lot of zoo photos where I intentionally blurred the background. I just didn't think of using the longer lenses during the shoot. I totally agree that it's chaos. Even though I was frustrated with the whole thing, I still enjoyed doing the photography, it just kind of haunts me knowing that I could have done better. The quality is above mediocre so I'm sure they'll be thrilled with the portraits and even some of the candid photos I shot.
Wedding photographers, I've been able to watch 2 close up since getting the photo bug. The first one did my sisters wedding. My sister told her I was an amateur photographer and she kind of took me under her wing. She had a lot of good ideas for poses but when I asked about settings she said "I paid a lot of money to have this camera think for me, so it stays on automatic". I continued to dial my own shots in. I did most of the same shots she did and the entire family thought mine were better. Hers were OK, there was no complaints, but when set next to mine you could see a difference in color and lighting.
I figured after that her son would ask me to do his wedding. Well, they picked some high priced, locally well known photographer that was one of the most obnoxious people I'd ever met. He kept trying to be the life of the party and I must admit I would have preferred him sitting in the corner with a lampshade on his head (more than once tempted to put him there myself). I was asked not to bring my camera as they wanted me to enjoy the party. Personally I'd have enjoyed it more with a camera in my hand. Well when they got the photos back they were mostly dark and I thought the color was off, her wedding gown was butter colored. Again, the family said I should have done the shoot. They were disappointed in his photos and his attitude.
Next family wedding coming up is my other nephew in 2 weeks. Again they have hired their own photographer and I've been asked not to bring my camera so I can enjoy myself. I guess they really don't know me that well. In a room full of strangers I'd have a lot more fun taking pictures than smiling and nodding. Unless you want to talk about God, guns or photography I'm not much on conversation. We'll see how it turns out. The wedding is in Sedona so I plan to take my camera and try some more landscapes, maybe a sunset if I can sneak out of the reception. It'll also be a backup if anything happens to their photographer. Kind of anxious to see how their photos turn out. I'm hoping they are better than the obnoxious guys.
I know I need more practice and experience doing portraits, I just wish I had the room. The church will let me set up in the room we do food ministry in, but there is a lot of people in and out of that room all the time. I'm hesitant to leave that much equipment laying around that is so easy to hock. God will set something up when the time is right so I guess it's not my problem.
Got any hints on landscapes? I'm going to work on some of the composition lessons I've been looking into. I'll have the tripod and shutter release and all my lenses.
Thanks,
Holdcard
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Thank You! - 5/14/2009 10:07:33 AM
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Holdcard
Posts: 269
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Thanks for showing me the crops. I had an idea that's what you were trying to say but it really helps me to see it. I appreciate your time and experience. Hopefully others will pick up on this thread and benefit from it as well.
Not sure about taking flashless photos at the wedding itself. I may get a few good ones but it'll make me nuts knowing how much better they could have been. It the photographer is friendly and doesn't mind I may break out the whole kit, but otherwise I'll just stay out of the way like a good guest. I've run into some photographers that like to talk and don't mind giving me pointers and letting me shoot along with them. Others are not so friendly or don't want to be bothered so I leave them alone. One thing I have noticed consistently is the friendly, talkative ones tend to do much better photos. I think it has to do with their passion for photography. It's not just a job, it's more like it's their goal to do their personal best.
Nikon does provide software, I just gotta find and install it. A lot of our apartment is allocated to those big plastic bins so it's a matter of going through them till I find what I need. I'm not sure if Nikon's program is trial or a lite version. I'll get around to it eventually, if the workflow makes sense to me or is better, easier, whatever I may just buy the full program. I'm to the point now that I may actually use it. I never installed anything but Photoshop Elements because of my limited knowledge, now that I know more it may be to my benefit.
Honestly the best landscapes I ever got were with a point and shoot Nikon 4300 in auto mode (off a tripod). This is the first time I've had the equipment available to try higher apertures and longer shutter speeds. I'll probably try all the different lenses just to see the difference. they make. I'm thinking the macro lens may be the best one for the job, but we'll see.
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 5/15/2009 11:43:20 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1591
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Holdcard
Thanks for showing me the crops. I had an idea that's what you were trying to say but it really helps me to see it. I appreciate your time and experience. Hopefully others will pick up on this thread and benefit from it as well.
Cropping is very subjective. But, the basic idea is to refocus attention away from negative aspects of the photo and onto possible aspects. If we have a camera that has enough resolution headroom then shooting wider than we intend to print can be very useful.
quote:
Not sure about taking flashless photos at the wedding itself. I may get a few good ones but it'll make me nuts knowing how much better they could have been. It the photographer is friendly and doesn't mind I may break out the whole kit, but otherwise I'll just stay out of the way like a good guest. I've run into some photographers that like to talk and don't mind giving me pointers and letting me shoot along with them. Others are not so friendly or don't want to be bothered so I leave them alone. One thing I have noticed consistently is the friendly, talkative ones tend to do much better photos. I think it has to do with their passion for photography. It's not just a job, it's more like it's their goal to do their personal best..
Shooting a wedding professionally is a tough job and the real money is made on the prints. So, it's stressful to try to get the most saleable products. I certainly would not like that kind of stress. Those who are good have better skills and greater experience. So that are likely under a lot less stress which translates to more openess. The most open photographer I ever met travels the world and has so much work at the highest levels that he doesn't even need or have a web site. He has two Hasselblads. Yet, he took the time to discuss with me the merits of the Canon 5D MK II and why he uses certain lenses for different applications. He was secure so he was open to helping others.
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Nikon does provide software, I just gotta find and install it. A lot of our apartment is allocated to those big plastic bins so it's a matter of going through them till I find what I need. I'm not sure if Nikon's program is trial or a lite version. I'll get around to it eventually, if the workflow makes sense to me or is better, easier, whatever I may just buy the full program. I'm to the point now that I may actually use it. I never installed anything but Photoshop Elements because of my limited knowledge, now that I know more it may be to my benefit..
Most people probably use Lightroom or Photoshop. I have the full version of Photoshop; but, rarely use it. A colleague uses Lightroom and is extremely happy with its RAW processing. The problem with Photoshop Elements is that many more of its functions drop down to lower bit-levels. I try to stay at the highest bitrates because I don't like the banding effects that occur in Elements.
quote:
Honestly the best landscapes I ever got were with a point and shoot Nikon 4300 in auto mode (off a tripod). This is the first time I've had the equipment available to try higher apertures and longer shutter speeds. I'll probably try all the different lenses just to see the difference. they make. I'm thinking the macro lens may be the best one for the job, but we'll see.
Holdcard
One of the problems with shooting landscapes is wind that blows leaves and branches. The result is muddied sharpness. This happened to me just last weekend with a beautiful willow tree. It was too late in the evening to shoot with a fast shutter speed. So, try both... some with fast shutter speeds and some with high f-stop settings.
Here is a promising landscape shot that turned out less than what I'd hoped due to both wind effects and noise.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2145/3534472761_6518a1e1b8_b.jpg
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 5/15/2009 11:55:42 PM >
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RE: Thank You! - 6/1/2009 3:12:29 AM
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PolarBear
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Sorry for not interacting in here too much yet -- that is just because we haven't fully started putting things together yet. But I think it will happen this year. I'm starting to review all the info presented here again and I'm sure it will be invaluable. I'll probably have questions as we get going.
As I mentioned in the other thread, we're talking about doing photographs for clients of the Crisis Pregnancy Center and their new babies. Hopefully that can start soon. There's also a community center that my church is involved in, and they want photographers as well. Neither are totally the type of ministry mentioned here, but useful nevertheless.
In re-reading the original posts, I note that the original mentioned ministry is in a small town. I wonder how transferable it is to a large city? We are an inner-city church.
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RE: Thank You! - 6/1/2009 11:07:41 PM
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TMeeks
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The town is an incorporated town in a highly dense area within 5 miles from the Washington, DC line. So, it should translate well.
It not WHAT you photograph. It's that you find something that allows you to make connections.
This could mean photographing the community center teams or kids with their favorite Christmas present. Another idea that could be VERY appreciated might be the family portrait for their Christmas letter or card. That's something we plan to do.
I tested shooting under a Quick-Shade 233 Summit pop-up canopy last weekend. I used a 850EX and 430Ex flash for fill lighting. It works well enough that people will appreciate the photos. The key here is to simply get enough light for good DOF and a sharp image even if the shadows aren't optimal. Here is a sample:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27657433@N08/sets/72157618667296321/
So, you don't even have to have an indoor location.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
Sorry for not interacting in here too much yet -- that is just because we haven't fully started putting things together yet. But I think it will happen this year. I'm starting to review all the info presented here again and I'm sure it will be invaluable. I'll probably have questions as we get going.
As I mentioned in the other thread, we're talking about doing photographs for clients of the Crisis Pregnancy Center and their new babies. Hopefully that can start soon. There's also a community center that my church is involved in, and they want photographers as well. Neither are totally the type of ministry mentioned here, but useful nevertheless.
In re-reading the original posts, I note that the original mentioned ministry is in a small town. I wonder how transferable it is to a large city? We are an inner-city church.
_____________________________
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Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Thank You! - 6/2/2009 8:56:09 AM
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Holdcard
Posts: 269
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: Phoenix, Arizona
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
Sorry for not interacting in here too much yet -- that is just because we haven't fully started putting things together yet. But I think it will happen this year. I'm starting to review all the info presented here again and I'm sure it will be invaluable. I'll probably have questions as we get going.
As I mentioned in the other thread, we're talking about doing photographs for clients of the Crisis Pregnancy Center and their new babies. Hopefully that can start soon. There's also a community center that my church is involved in, and they want photographers as well. Neither are totally the type of ministry mentioned here, but useful nevertheless.
In re-reading the original posts, I note that the original mentioned ministry is in a small town. I wonder how transferable it is to a large city? We are an inner-city church.
My philosophy may be a little different than some here on the board. Our ministry encompasses many things. I don't think there is a single thing in personal life that does not affect ministry and visa versa. Our main calling in ministry seems to be seed planting, no we don't stand on the corner and pass out tracts. Instead we strive to live a Godly, honorable life. I've long been a fan of the saying "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day". No matter what we are doing, we strive to be that sermon.
So no matter who I'm serving, whether it be a church or other non-profit organization that may have no "religious" involvement at all we still act like Christians and try to set the correct example. I only have one card and that is our ministry card. When the time comes for the Holy Spirit to convict a person what they are going to remember is that it was a Christian who helped them when no one else seemed to want to. It was the Christian that mirrored God's love, kindness and grace, That is the reality that the Holy Spirit may use to cause someone to become born again.
Even when I start to take on photography jobs the mission stays the same. To be the best example we can be. In Americas' present state, you don't have to shove religion down peoples throats, you have to love them and show them God loves them.
I know I got a little off topic with that, but I'm blessed in that God has allowed so many things I'm passionate about and that I enjoy doing to be a part of our ministry. Our main mission never changes. Food, Photography, whatever is only the tool God uses to get the mission accomplished. We need to keep that in mind.
Holdard
< Message edited by Holdcard -- 6/2/2009 9:04:18 AM >
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RE: Thank You! - 6/2/2009 11:12:20 AM
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PolarBear
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Exactly. Well said! That is my church's philosophy as well.
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RE: Thank You! - 6/4/2009 9:36:58 AM
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Holdcard
Posts: 269
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Well thank you, but it's really a God thing. I just wish this attitude was easier to convey to people. I often use the quote "Harley Davidson, If I have to explain it you wouldn't understand". The relationship with God is the same way, in truth it mus be experienced. Words are so inadequate to explain the relationship God wants with His children. We just do out best to point them to the Bible and let God do the rest.
Holdcard
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If You Want To POPULATE Heaven
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RE: Thank You! - 6/4/2009 4:45:50 PM
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TMeeks
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The Word of God is, as you point out, the REAL POWER to change a life. We are just priviledged to be able to be a part of God using it in the lives of other people. Sharing a moment creating a photograph that means something to that other person provides me the opportunity to share God's love and Word. It also seems to open that person's heart in ways I've not seen before.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Holdcard
Well thank you, but it's really a God thing. I just wish this attitude was easier to convey to people. I often use the quote "Harley Davidson, If I have to explain it you wouldn't understand". The relationship with God is the same way, in truth it mus be experienced. Words are so inadequate to explain the relationship God wants with His children. We just do out best to point them to the Bible and let God do the rest.
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 6/4/2009 9:48:50 PM
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Holdcard
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I just wanted to reiterate that if anyone wants to use our gallery for critiques/instruction just let me know. It's more private than the public sites and if you're like me you don't want the whole world to see your mistakes.
I am doing a portrait fundraiser for UCP this weekend after food ministry. I'm hoping this will be the first of many.
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 6/7/2009 10:20:19 AM
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Holdcard
Posts: 269
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Overall the shoot went well. It looked like everyone had a lot of fun.
ON TO THE LESSONS LEARNED
I've got to learn (re-learn) to trust the histogram. Photos all turned out a tad darker than I wanted. Not too bad to fix in Photoshop, but dark none the less. They of course all looked great on the preview screen on the camera.
I should bring the laptop to see what the real picture looks like (at least during setup and dial in). That little screen on the camera lies sometimes.
Posing people is hard, posing families is harder. When posing families with developmental disabilities - Well, you just start shooting and cracking jokes and hope you get a good one. Sometimes even a single person with a developmental disability is challenging, it seems to take more time than the parent is willing to spend in some cases. I think some of the parents thought they were wasting or taking up too much of my time and maybe put too much pressure of their children. Need to come up with a way to let them know I don't mind taking the time and really want to give them the best photo possible.
I think I'm going to come up with an order form and on the form explain that we do understand people with disabilities and are eager to spend enough time with the person to get the best picture possible. It's not a race. Our goal is the give them the best picture possible.
Need to mark the soft box collars for assembly, I've only put them together a few times but always manage to get it wrong the first (and sometimes second) time. I wish I had the room to just leave them assembled once I get them right. Oh well, practice, practice, practice.
The room they gave me to work in was OK except the wall I was shooting against was an off white room divider (accordion type) I think that's why I was having problems with the adjustments. I 'should' be able to adapt though. Its funny, I like a challenge but get frustrated sometimes when I'm not able to figure it out right away. Guess I'm human after all.
Need to look into a wider lens for group shots in smaller rooms. I got the shot but was up against the wall doing it and didn't really get it framed the way I wanted it.
I'll post some photos in the exercise portion of our gallery (I don't have photo releases so no public viewing) once I get them processed.
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 6/7/2009 10:36:53 AM
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Holdcard
Posts: 269
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Almost forgot, I need to get a small dry erase board to put names on so I can match names to order forms and get it right. Many I know so that will help.
I'm realizing that I'm going to have to take control on the photo end of the events we do. Each one so far has been pretty unorganized. I think it will work out better if we handle it and then give them a finished, organized product.
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 6/8/2009 11:52:18 AM
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PolarBear
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I wonder what lenses would be best for this kind of thing. I have:
* 15-55IS
* 55-250IS
* 50mm f/1.8
* 100mm USM macro
* 10-22
I suppose the 50mm or 100mm could both do a very good job at individual (+pet or child) portraits.
For groups and other "general" shots, I really want the 17-55 or maybe the 24-70L (both f/2.8), but no budget for it for at least several months since we're buying a house. And, the 15-55IS does quite good most of the time so those would probably be considered a luxury, not a necessity.
Thanks again TMeeks. Looking forward to Wednesday!
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RE: Thank You! - 6/8/2009 6:29:35 PM
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Holdcard
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I have a 24-120, that's the one I was using. The group photos were the only one I needed to adjust for so maybe I don't really need it. If the room would have been any smaller I would have had to squeeze them in closer. All the portraits were fine, I only had a few groups, just the volunteers and the bicycle winners.
When I talked to the camera people about it last year they showed me what to watch for. A wide angle lens will sort of curve the image at the outer edges.
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 6/8/2009 6:48:02 PM
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Holdcard
Posts: 269
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
I wonder what lenses would be best for this kind of thing. I have:
* 15-55IS
* 55-250IS
* 50mm f/1.8
* 100mm USM macro
* 10-22
10-22! I have one of those, but mine shoots .22's not photographs. Ruger 10/22
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 6/9/2009 12:06:22 AM
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PolarBear
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Hehe.
But that is what you would want (the Canon one, not Ruger) for large group shots indoors.
I've used it for indoor real estate photos for my wife.
Yes there is a bit of distortion, which is worse on some shots than others. I just discovered Canon's DPP has a utility that can partially correct for it, and you can do more correction manually but that loses part of the picture.
On some shots it is pretty bad though. A house can be made to look like it has severe foundation problems.
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RE: Thank You! - 6/9/2009 9:33:58 AM
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Holdcard
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When I do buy it will most likely be the AF-S NIKKOR 14-24mm f/2.8G ED. At this point I'm kind of stuck in Nikon, several lenses, and 3 different levels of DSLR.
The lens in not cheap by any means somewhere around $1800.00, may be able to find it for less, honestly haven't looked that hard yet.
Holdcard
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RE: Thank You! - 6/19/2009 9:48:37 PM
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Holdcard
Posts: 269
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
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I'll keep you in prayer, nothing like a little pressure huh?
I have very limited experience in video, just the hand held cheapos. I'll be interested to see the stills you get though if you want to share. People are the hardest for me, just because they don't listen. I think part of the reason may be familiarity, so far it's either been friends or family. Maybe if I start charging it will make a difference.
I like shooting events, kind of a photo journalism thing. So the reception and actual wedding would not be a problem. The big challenge for me is the posed bride and groom shots before and after the actual ceremony. I don't know if all weddings go like this but the few I've been to getting everyone together is a real pain. Seems like you're always waiting for someone then when you finally get everyone there, they are all in a hurry.
I'll be waiting to hear how it went for you.
Holdcard
_____________________________
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If You Want To POPULATE Heaven
You Have To PLUNDER Hell!!
4th Man Ministries
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