1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (Full Version)

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anicecupofcoffee -> 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/1/2009 8:31:13 PM)

Started my new year off with Genesis and something hit me for the first time. Genesis 3:22 states "The Lord God said, "This man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (NIV)

Is this reference to "us" the first reference to Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit?



Preludeian -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/1/2009 11:41:48 PM)

'us' is reference to the Trinity.

26.Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."



MrFribbles -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 12:49:02 AM)

This has been discussed and debated a number of times. Ultimately, we just don't know. However, it seems pretty clear that the original authors did not write this passage from a trinitarian viewpoint, since they had no idea about the trinity back then. It's arguable that God super-imposed His will onto the authors and made them write it even though they wouldn't have understood it, but personally, I like to believe God communicates with people in ways they can understand.



benelchi -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 1:52:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

This has been discussed and debated a number of times. Ultimately, we just don't know. However, it seems pretty clear that the original authors did not write this passage from a trinitarian viewpoint, since they had no idea about the trinity back then. It's arguable that God super-imposed His will onto the authors and made them write it even though they wouldn't have understood it, but personally, I like to believe God communicates with people in ways they can understand.



I don't know if "authors" was just a slip or in indication of your support of JEPD, but I tend to believe that there was only one author of Genesis i.e. Moses. Any credibility that JEPD had, I believe, was largely destroyed when recent discoveries like that of the DSS scrolls were made. The initial rejection of the DSS scrolls by the JEPD adherents demonstrates pretty clearly how damaging that discovery was to their theory, and current attempts to simply push back the dates to align the theory with the current manuscript evidence is simply unwarranted. The need some scholars seem to have to grasp onto this theory despite all evidence that raises further questions about its reliability might explain the rejection of some scholars of new evidence (like the Joash inscripture) that further damages the credibility of the JEPD theory.

While I have no doubt that God communicated to the authors of the bible in a way that they could understand, I also have no doubt that he communicated truths to them that they did not understand. Many of the Messianic prophecies would fall into this category. It is hard to believe that even Isaiah himself fully understood the significance of the prophetic imagery in his writings, and certainly none of the commentary before that of the Apostles demonstrates a clear understanding of Isaiah's prophecies. In much the same way, I do believe that Moses, writing as God directed him, understood only to a small extent the depth of the truth about which he was writing. I really do believe the "Us" passage in Ge. 1 is an allusion to the Trinity (even though Moses did not understand the Trinity). I think one key point against the idea that this is simply an example of the Majestic plural (i.e. a plural noun used in the singular) is that the grammar of this verse is entirely in the Plural i.e. the nouns and verbs all agree, and this would be a unique and unusual use of the "majestic plural" if it was proven to be the case. The normal "majestic plural" can be seen in the begining of vs. 26 in the phrase "And God said"; here the word God (Elohim) is in the plural, but the verb 'to say' is masculine singular and the mismatch between the noun and verb is grammatically what is expected when the "Majestic plural" is employed; however, in the rest of the verse we have a plural noun/verb agreement that demands a genuine plural understanding. In Vs. 27 there is again a shift back to the normal "majestic plural" i.e. while the noun is plural the verb is again singular. I find it difficult to conclude that the grammar here allows for anything other than a plural understanding. And from a Christian perspective, that plural nature is seen in the Trinity.



MrFribbles -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 1:58:36 AM)

quote:

I don't know if "authors" was just a slip or in indication of your support of JEPD


It was more of a slip. I did mean authors, but I was speaking in the general sense of the biblical authors collectively. I certainly do not support the JEPD, and believe Moses wrote at least most of the Pentateuch.

quote:

While I have no doubt that God communicated to the authors of the bible in a way that they could understand, I also have no doubt that he communicated truths to them that they did not understand. Many of the Messianic prophecies would fall into this category.


Agreed, but Isaiah wasn't writing history. Why would God give His people a creation account which, from their perspective, allowed for henotheism? I don't think it makes sense for God to put such a potentially confusing (to the original hearers) passage as the highlight to the record of one of the greatest acts in history.



benelchi -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 2:21:17 AM)

quote:


Agreed, but Isaiah wasn't writing history. Why would God give His people a creation account which, from their perspective, allowed for henotheism? I don't think it makes sense for God to put such a potentially confusing (to the original hearers) passage as the highlight to the record of one of the greatest acts in history.


I don't think the grammar of the passage can be explained any other way. You either believe, as most Christians do, that this is an allusion to the Trinity or, as the secular scholars do, that it is an indication of polytheistic beliefs. The plural nature of this verse is something that has raised question in even the very oldest commentaries we have on this verse.



Preludeian -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 3:10:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

This has been discussed and debated a number of times. Ultimately, we just don't know. However, it seems pretty clear that the original authors did not write this passage from a trinitarian viewpoint, since they had no idea about the trinity back then. It's arguable that God super-imposed His will onto the authors and made them write it even though they wouldn't have understood it, but personally, I like to believe God communicates with people in ways they can understand.


When God speaks you are to obey unquestionably. For those he's called to be his personal servants there is no act of rebellion that will go without severe punishment. Moses was quite aware of what rebellion to God does to a man, see Exodus 4:24. You may not understand what he means when he speaks to you but none the less you must do as you have been commanded.



MrFribbles -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 4:11:07 PM)

quote:

When God speaks you are to obey unquestionably. For those he's called to be his personal servants there is no act of rebellion that will go without severe punishment. Moses was quite aware of what rebellion to God does to a man, see Exodus 4:24. You may not understand what he means when he speaks to you but none the less you must do as you have been commanded.


I still don't see a biblical precedent for God to inspire the authors He chose to write historical Scripture, but to do so in a way that made no sense to them.



benelchi -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 4:12:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

When God speaks you are to obey unquestionably. For those he's called to be his personal servants there is no act of rebellion that will go without severe punishment. Moses was quite aware of what rebellion to God does to a man, see Exodus 4:24. You may not understand what he means when he speaks to you but none the less you must do as you have been commanded.


I still don't see a biblical precedent for God to inspire the authors He chose to write historical Scripture, but to do so in a way that made no sense to them.



So, how do you explain the plural usage in this passage?



MrFribbles -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 4:17:42 PM)

quote:

So, how do you explain the plural usage in this passage?


I'm not sure. One of the views that makes some amount of sense to me (and is completely written off by most members of this forum) is that God is addressing the heavenly council, much like in 1 Kings 22. God is inviting them to take part in the joy of the high point of creation.



benelchi -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/2/2009 4:42:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

So, how do you explain the plural usage in this passage?


I'm not sure. One of the views that makes some amount of sense to me (and is completely written off by most members of this forum) is that God is addressing the heavenly council, much like in 1 Kings 22. God is inviting them to take part in the joy of the high point of creation.


That is actually one answer posited by Jewish scholars because they recognize that the plural grammar of this passage is inescapable, but many Jewish scholars still try and grasp at the "majestic plural" explanation because they recognize that this explanation creates more problems that is resolves.

1) If "our image" and "our likeness" refers to both the image of God and to the images of the angels, then it would seem to require that the image of God and the image of Angels be far more similar than the picture we have of God we have from the bible allows.

2) The idea that the angels participated in the creation of man does not seem to be supported in Scripture at all.

3) The singular grammar of vs. 1:27 seems to contradict the idea that the angels were involved in the process of creating man, or that man was created in the image of angels i.e. in vs. 27 it is "his image" and "he created".



MrFribbles -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/3/2009 12:42:35 AM)

quote:

If "our image" and "our likeness" refers to both the image of God and to the images of the angels, then it would seem to require that the image of God and the image of Angels be far more similar than the picture we have of God we have from the bible allows.


That depends on how one takes being made in God's image. There are some traits that angels have in common with God, just as there are some traits that we have in common with both.

quote:

The idea that the angels participated in the creation of man does not seem to be supported in Scripture at all.


That depends on how one defines participated. I see it more as the way (excuse the simple illustration, it's late) the fans in the crowd participate in a concert.

quote:

The singular grammar of vs. 1:27 seems to contradict the idea that the angels were involved in the process of creating man, or that man was created in the image of angels i.e. in vs. 27 it is "his image" and "he created".


Which meshes well with what I put above. They didn't do any actual creating themselves.

And again, I'm not 100% sold on this concept, but it seems to make more sense than Moses writing down something that went against the 1st (in the Protestant tradition) commandment.



anicecupofcoffee -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/3/2009 8:57:28 PM)

quote:

And again, I'm not 100% sold on this concept,


Are there "concepts" in the Bible or was this a figure of speech???



MrFribbles -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/3/2009 9:54:16 PM)

quote:

Are there "concepts" in the Bible or was this a figure of speech???


That depends. How do you define "concept"?



Geoff22 -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/10/2009 1:28:39 AM)

Not to interrupt the rhythm of the debate in process, but I had to interject and point how very cool I found this. Even at the beginning of time, all the pieces for all the history, up to present, were in place. God knew man would disobey, but He created us anyway, and in fact the key to our salvation from the penalty of that disobedience existed even before we did....wow. That passage alone almost entirely explains the relationship between God's omnipotence, His plan, and our freewill...



stratt -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/10/2009 2:06:37 AM)

quote:

Started my new year off with Genesis and something hit me for the first time. Genesis 3:22 states "The Lord God said, "This man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (NIV)

Is this reference to "us" the first reference to Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit?


I didnt read all the posts... but how about this one...

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2

The Spirit of God.

The Jews that followed God throughout history, i think, would have realized a triune God. The spirit and God are both mentioned in the first to verses of Genesis... and Jesus is promised in Gen 3:15 not to mention he appears all over the old testament... to Joshua, Abraham and others.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:15

The "us" is most assuredly a reference to a Triune God.



Preludeian -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/10/2009 6:36:24 PM)

Do Jews even seperate the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Father' as two seperate beings?



stratt -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/10/2009 6:50:27 PM)

quote:

Do Jews even seperate the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Father' as two seperate beings?


do Christians separate Jesus and the father?

For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2Sa22:32.

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1Cr 10:4



Preludeian -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/11/2009 9:07:03 PM)

Maybe I'm not understaing those verses[&o]

One in essence, three in being. - R.C. Sproul



stratt -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/12/2009 2:20:10 AM)

He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places [like] a river. Psa105:41

It is rude of me to answer your question with a question.... i suppose what i was getting at is that i think the jews did differentiate ... because the scripture differentiated.... but it also doesnt differentiate.... as you said...

One in essence, three in being. I would think the jews would have thought the same..

even the scriptures call God the Rock... Jesus the Rock.... and you open the Rock and the Spirit comes out.

All old testament quotes.



pabrain -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/24/2009 3:14:34 PM)

The Trinity in the OT.

Have a look at the verses of Scripture bellow from which I have removed the last line of verse 16, and tell me who is speaking? ..The answer can only be, non other that the Lord God Almighty Himself, our Father.

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there.

Now read the last line of verse 16, and tell me who was speaking.

"And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

Footnotes: 48:16 The Hebrew verb is singular.


Verse 16, could be rendered as, "And now the Father and His Spirit Have sent Me."



benelchi -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/25/2009 12:34:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pabrain

The Trinity in the OT.

Have a look at the verses of Scripture bellow from which I have removed the last line of verse 16, and tell me who is speaking? ..The answer can only be, non other that the Lord God Almighty Himself, our Father.

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there.

Now read the last line of verse 16, and tell me who was speaking.

"And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."


This passage is a great example to the illusion to the Trinity in the Old Testament.


quote:


Footnotes: 48:16 The Hebrew verb is singular.


Grammatically, the Hebrew singular is what is expected here because the Lord God (literally 'Adonai Yahweh') is always treated as singular; however, it should be noted that while Yahweh is singular, Adonai is actually the singular first person declension of the plural Adonim"; Adonai literally means 'my Lords'. Very often plurals like 'elohim' (gods), 'adonai' (my Lords), etc... are used with singular verbs when referring to God; this is known as a majestic plural and, although it is often debated, the use of the Hebrew majestic plural in reference to God could itself be an indication of his triune nature. I think the reason that the singular may seem odd to you is because the translation you quoted treats both 'the Lord God' and 'his spirit' as the subject of the verb but in the Hebrew this is not the case and the translation you provided doesn't accurately reflect the grammar of this passage. Literally, this phrase reads 'And now my Lord Yahweh sent me and his spirit.' Notice how other versions have much more accurately reflected the grammar of this verse.


NAS Isaiah 48:16b "And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."

NET Isaiah 48:16b “So now, the sovereign LORD has sent me, accompanied by his spirit.”

NIV Isaiah 48:16b "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit.”

Here is the original text:

MT Isaiah 48:16b וְעַתָּ֗ה אֲדֹנָ֧י יְהוִ֛ה שְׁלָחַ֖נִי וְרוּחֽוֹ׃ <> (v'atah[and-now] Adonai Yahweh slachani[he-sent-me] v'rucho[and-his-spirit])

Note: My English transliteration reads left to right like English, but Hebrew reads right to left. If you start in the middle between the Hebrew text and the transliteration and read outward in opposite directions you can match the transliteration word for word with the Hebrew text. I attached, in square brackets, a translation of the words that would likely be unfamiliar. In Hebrew articles, prepositions, possessives, etc... are prefixed or suffix onto nouns and verbs, so a single Hebrew word can sometime be translated into a complete English sentence. As an example from the text above "ruach/רוח" (this is what is found in strong's) is spirit, "v'ruach' is 'and spirit' because the prefixed vav/ו is the conjunction that is most commonly translated 'and', and 'v'rucho' is 'and his spirit' because the suffixed vav/ו is the 3rd person singular declension 'his/him' This is also a good example of the difference between "dynamic" and "literal" translations; the NAS has translated this verse very literally, but the NET and NIV have probably better captured the meaning of the Hebrew text in English when the translated the conjunction 'vav/ו as 'with/accompanied by'

quote:


Verse 16, could be rendered as, "And now the Father and His Spirit Have sent Me."


This would be an even more inaccurate rendering because there is no justification for rendering 'Adonai Yahweh' as Father. While the bible does use the word Father to describe God, it doesn't do so in this verse and rendering in that way in this verse would be inaccurate.



makarizo -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/25/2009 8:01:20 PM)

quote:

Is this reference to "us" the first reference to Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit?


if you look at John chpt 1, you will see that Jesus is Gen 1:1... "God created" ,,,,,, "let there be light" is the word of God.
then in Gen 1:2 "the Sprirt of God......."



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/30/2009 10:23:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

When God speaks you are to obey unquestionably. For those he's called to be his personal servants there is no act of rebellion that will go without severe punishment. Moses was quite aware of what rebellion to God does to a man, see Exodus 4:24. You may not understand what he means when he speaks to you but none the less you must do as you have been commanded.


I still don't see a biblical precedent for God to inspire the authors He chose to write historical Scripture, but to do so in a way that made no sense to them.


So to you does everything God does make sense? I know it doesn't to me. Do you think when God was revealing all the information to John in the book of Revelation that it all made sense to him? No, I believe if the Holy Spirit inspired the writer to write Us then he would write Us whether he understood it or not. After all God clearly stated that His ways are not our ways.



MrFribbles -> RE: 1st Reference to Christ & the Holy Spirit in OT? (1/30/2009 2:38:13 PM)

quote:

Do you think when God was revealing all the information to John in the book of Revelation that it all made sense to him?


So Genesis is Apocalyptic literature?



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