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Free Will - 1/26/2009 2:46:34 PM
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dkoglesby
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There is a topic that myself and several other christians often talk about.
The topice of "Free Will" and God's plan for our lives.
Here is the situation:
Since God knows all, and he knows what choices we will make in life...
then why are we given choices....choices of "Free Will" ?
Since he does know all, and knows where our lives will lead us, before we do, and he knows our ENTIRE life choices before we make them, are we pre-destined for Heaven or Hell?
These are two questions I get all the time from young believers.
I am having a very hard time answering these questions and explaining
how God's plan works in our life for us and the result of the choices we make in relation to God knowing what choices we will make before we make them. I also get the response, "Since GOd already knows our life choices before we make them, then why does he even give us these choices. Are will really living in the age of "Free Will", since God already knows everything about us and what choices we will make?
I really need a good scripture based answer in modern day terms that young believers can understand.
Thanks....
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 3:06:55 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1892
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I doubt very much that you'll get an answer that satisfies young believers, or older ones for that matter. The question of Free Will and God knowing in advance what we will do has been debated for ages and will continue to be so.
The honest answer to give these youngsters is that we really don't have an answer.
Yes, God gave us Free Will to choose to love Him or not. To choose to follow His Word or not. To accept His invitation to enter Heaven through Jesus Christ His Son or not.
That much is clear. We have Free will because God did not want to create robots who follow His every command blindly.
However, being all-knowing He knows beforehand the choices we will make. This does not mean He has influenced our choices in any way. He just knows.
Just like you sitting in a helicopter can see two cars speeding towards an intersection. You can see they will hit each other. But you do nothing to influence the outcome.
I'm sure this is not the ideal answer to your question. This is because there is no answer. There is Faith. Believing that we have Free Will and believing that He is all-knowing.
God bless.
_____________________________
My Book
Time For Reflections The Blog you'll like !
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 3:14:56 PM
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rhpmike
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I have lots of theories and beliefs, but I have found that it is crucial that we turn to God's Word to see what he says about these matters.
For example, I might believe in "Free Will" since I do know that I make conscious choices, but I must see if "Free Will" is something that is taught in the Bible. I cannot find a single verse that teaches this. What I do find is that we are accountable for our sin. It can be argued that moral accountability presuppose free will, but again, know that this is an argument and not something that the Bible teaches.
Further, I may like or dislike the idea of God choosing/destining people for Heaven or Hell, but my likes do not really matter. What matters is whether God has said that he Elects/Chooses/Destines/etc people to Heaven or Hell. If the Bible teaches that He does ... then He does, whether I like it or not.
And with that, I turn to just one passage of Scripture that must be considered in this discussion:
Romans 9:
And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac --
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue,
not by works but by his call--she was told, "The older shall serve the younger."
As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
For he says to Moses: "I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will."
So it depends not upon a person's will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth."
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
BUT WHAT IF I THINK THAT IS UNFAIR?!!? Well, Paul continues:
You will say to me then, "Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?"
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 3:55:14 PM
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TorchHeart
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Wasn't Free Will a movie about a boy and a whale?
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 4:03:17 PM
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dkoglesby
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The age of "Free Will" is a belief that since the death and resurection,
we have "Free Will" to make choices. It is a belief structure that I have
been exposed to within the Baptist, Methodist, and Nazarene churches.
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 4:04:58 PM
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dkoglesby
Posts: 6
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Wasn't Free Will a movie about a boy and a whale?
Come on now, you are listed as a Senior Member of this board.
Such a response is just childish.
'Free Willy' was the movie.
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 4:06:33 PM
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rhpmike
Posts: 196
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quote:
The age of "Free Will" is a belief that since the death and resurection,
we have "Free Will" to make choices.
Most everyone believes that we make choices and that these choices are an act of volition or will. The question is whether this "will" is "free" or whether it is bound.
I believe the Bible clearly teaches that an unconverted person has a will that is bound to their sinful nature and that unless this sinful nature is overcome by the grace of God it will remain bound.
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 4:09:08 PM
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rhpmike
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quote:
Just like you sitting in a helicopter can see two cars speeding towards an intersection. You can see they will hit each other. But you do nothing to influence the outcome.
Respectfully, this makes God out to be a disconnected deist god who winds up a clock and simply lets it continue without outside influence.
We do not serve a God who is a helpless bystander as two cars rush towards each other. We serve a Sovereign God who speaks and the Mountains get up and leap into the Sea.
We pray because we believe God has the power that a helpless bystander does not.
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 4:18:10 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 2073
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dkoglesby
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Wasn't Free Will a movie about a boy and a whale?
Come on now, you are listed as a Senior Member of this board.
Such a response is just childish.
'Free Willy' was the movie.
I also loosen up the mood on this board quite a bit with such posts.
That said, we have a lot of posts about free will, already. I would suggest loking back at a few of them for an answer to your questions.
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 4:20:05 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1892
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Hi Rhpmike,
You miss-understood me. I did not say that God watches with no control of events as a helpless bystander. This was just an imagery to show that He does give us Free Will and yet He knows in advance how we will choose.
Of course, when He wills it, He does make His presence known to advise us of alternatives to the choices we have made. Just like He did to Paul on the way to Damascus.
Some of us however stubbornly ignore Him and choose our own way rather than His. And that's Free Will.
_____________________________
My Book
Time For Reflections The Blog you'll like !
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 5:30:24 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1810
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dkoglesby
There is a topic that myself and several other christians often talk about.
The topice of "Free Will" and God's plan for our lives.
Here is the situation:
Since God knows all, and he knows what choices we will make in life...
then why are we given choices....choices of "Free Will" ?
Since he does know all, and knows where our lives will lead us, before we do, and he knows our ENTIRE life choices before we make them, are we pre-destined for Heaven or Hell?
These are two questions I get all the time from young believers.
I am having a very hard time answering these questions and explaining
how God's plan works in our life for us and the result of the choices we make in relation to God knowing what choices we will make before we make them. I also get the response, "Since GOd already knows our life choices before we make them, then why does he even give us these choices. Are will really living in the age of "Free Will", since God already knows everything about us and what choices we will make?
I really need a good scripture based answer in modern day terms that young believers can understand.
Thanks....
Can I give you a simple answer to a 'difficult' question that people have and will wrangle about until the Lord's coming?
I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth. III John 4
God LOVES to see us choosing His will, to walk in His ways. 
Just as any parent knows, there is nothing that pleases a mommy or daddy heart more. We want to see those we love, walking in love with the Lord.
And He wants to see us CHOOSING it for ourselves.
He sets us free so that we will willingly become captives to Him.
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 8:46:37 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello dkoglesby
Does not love allow the recipent a free will? A spouse cannot possess the other. If love is involved each comes voluntarily.
Remember in Deuteronomy God placed life or death before them. He then gave them the freedom to choose.
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RE: Free Will - 1/26/2009 10:12:48 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 290
Joined: 8/9/2007
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I snicker, because I just heard a sermon on the topic.
The pastor said, "Yes, we have free will,......... but it is limited."
I understand this to be, that yes, we have free will, but God also has his plan which takes His first priority.
I really understand your problem, been there....... several times.
For what it is worth.
BJ
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 6:51:56 PM
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Jim731
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quote:
Can I give you a simple answer to a 'difficult' question that people have and will wrangle about until the Lord's coming?
I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth. III John 4
God LOVES to see us choosing His will, to walk in His ways.
Just as any parent knows, there is nothing that pleases a mommy or daddy heart more. We want to see those we love, walking in love with the Lord.
And He wants to see us CHOOSING it for ourselves.
He sets us free so that we will willingly become captives to Him.
Matt. 11:27 “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.”
1Cor. 12:1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
quote:
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth."
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
Rom 11:33 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 8:17:52 PM
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rhpmike
Posts: 196
Joined: 7/26/2005
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I have heard arguments that love necessitates free will and that it is similar to watching a car crash that you can do nothing to stop, but I still see no convincing evidence from the Bible that shows that our Will is Free.
The Bible repeatedly claims that we make choices.
The Bible repeatedly claims that we are responsible for our choices.
The Bible nowhere articulates a concept of Free will.
The Bible does, however, claim that are wills are bound (ie. Not free) by our sinful nature.
Ever wonder why you have come to believe and others have not?
Is it because you are smarter than they?
Is it because you are more moral than they?
Is it because you make better choices than they do?
I hope not.
Hopefully it is because you know that once you were blind and but by Gods grace you'd still be blind, however he has made you see.
Hopefully it is because you knew that you were dead in your sin (as Eph. 2 says) but God made you alive.
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 8:45:17 PM
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delete123
Posts: 547
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dkoglesby
There is a topic that myself and several other christians often talk about.
The topice of "Free Will" and God's plan for our lives.
Here is the situation:
Since God knows all, and he knows what choices we will make in life...
then why are we given choices....choices of "Free Will" ?
Since he does know all, and knows where our lives will lead us, before we do, and he knows our ENTIRE life choices before we make them, are we pre-destined for Heaven or Hell?
These are two questions I get all the time from young believers.
I am having a very hard time answering these questions and explaining
how God's plan works in our life for us and the result of the choices we make in relation to God knowing what choices we will make before we make them. I also get the response, "Since GOd already knows our life choices before we make them, then why does he even give us these choices. Are will really living in the age of "Free Will", since God already knows everything about us and what choices we will make?
I really need a good scripture based answer in modern day terms that young believers can understand.
Thanks....
Free Will/Choice
It is true that God does know how we will respond, however since He gave us the choice to make one, He will not interfere in our decision.
If we 'choose' right Heaven will be rejoicing.
If we 'choose' wrongly then we pay the consequence of the result that transpires from that decision.
He doesn't give up on us when we 'choose' wrong over right, this is His grace to us.
Each day is a new day in which we can redeem to change (repent) from our wrong .
Once we realize that what we "choose' is not correct and seek the 'right' way, He bestows us with the strength, courage, and endurance to continue on that path.
See free will allows one to make the mistake, pay the consequence, learn from it and given the grace to change to another direction.
Sort of like when you come to the fork in the road, which way will you go?
I know my explaination may seem scattered, but boy I can go on in a lot of ways with this.
I hope this helps you
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 8:50:45 PM
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rhpmike
Posts: 196
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To the Free Will crowd,
For what do you pray when you pray for an unbeliever to come to Jesus (a family member, childhood friend, neighbor, dying relative)?
See, I pray that despite their defiant, self-righteous, evil-loving will that seems to appealing, that God would open their eyes to the truth. That his Gospel would overcome their hardened heart/will and change their hard heart into one of flesh.
It is hard for me to imagine the prayer of the Free-Will proponent:
"God, Thank you for letting them making their own choices, but I'd really wish that they'd make a different choice. Could you do something in their life that would make your choice more appealing ... but not so appealing that it would take away the freedom of their will? Thanks a lot God. Love you, amen."
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 9:01:23 PM
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delete123
Posts: 547
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhpmike
To the Free Will crowd,
For what do you pray when you pray for an unbeliever to come to Jesus (a family member, childhood friend, neighbor, dying relative)?
See, I pray that despite their defiant, self-righteous, evil-loving will that seems to appealing, that God would open their eyes to the truth. That his Gospel would overcome their hardened heart/will and change their hard heart into one of flesh.
It is hard for me to imagine the prayer of the Free-Will proponent:
"God, Thank you for letting them making their own choices, but I'd really wish that they'd make a different choice. Could you do something in their life that would make your choice more appealing ... but not so appealing that it would take away the freedom of their will? Thanks a lot God. Love you, amen."
Rhpmike~
All you can do is pray to God for them to change from their choices. He is not going to force the issue, that is part of Free will.
They can choose Him or not
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 9:37:00 PM
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rhpmike
Posts: 196
Joined: 7/26/2005
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Delete,
So you really can't pray for anything?
That's where you and I disagree. God can and absolutely does force the issue. Consider Paul riding into Damascus? God sure forced the issue with Him, and he does the same with every believer.
Thanks for answering, though, I appreciate it!
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 9:54:16 PM
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delete123
Posts: 547
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhpmike
So you really can't pray for anything?
rphmike~
I didn't say you could not pray for anything. Anyone can pray for whatever they want, but it doesn't mean it will happen either, if it is not in God's timing.
Not only that it is a freewill, a person needs to choose in which path they want to go. Wrong from Right.
You mentioned Paul from the book of Acts on the road to Damascus, however Saul/Paul was a pharisee and already had belief in God and knew the scriptures.
God is not going to force Himself on an unbeliever who doesn't know of Him. That is taking away his God given right.
You have to hear the word to be a believer of the word (James)because believing comes by it.
Once you hear and believe, then comes the doing part of it.
But if I was an atheist, agnostic, or nothing at all and you came across and told me I have *no* choice, then it would take much for me to tell you where you can hang it brother.
Scripture also tells us He gently approaches us and knocks, He doesn't bang and say, You *must* let me in.
I think your way of a person being forced into it, woudl chase many away.
You already scare me and I believe
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RE: Free Will - 1/27/2009 10:30:59 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 871
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhpmike
The Bible does, however, claim that are wills are bound (ie. Not free) by our sinful nature.
so did adam act in accordance with his nature or contary to his nature?
does the christian act in accordance to his nature or contary to his nature when he sins?
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RE: Free Will - 1/28/2009 8:35:17 AM
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dkoglesby
Posts: 6
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhpmike
I have heard arguments that love necessitates free will and that it is similar to watching a car crash that you can do nothing to stop, but I still see no convincing evidence from the Bible that shows that our Will is Free.
The Bible repeatedly claims that we make choices.
The Bible repeatedly claims that we are responsible for our choices.
The Bible nowhere articulates a concept of Free will.
The Bible does, however, claim that are wills are bound (ie. Not free) by our sinful nature.
Ever wonder why you have come to believe and others have not?
Is it because you are smarter than they?
Is it because you are more moral than they?
Is it because you make better choices than they do?
I hope not.
Hopefully it is because you know that once you were blind and but by Gods grace you'd still be blind, however he has made you see.
Hopefully it is because you knew that you were dead in your sin (as Eph. 2 says) but God made you alive.
The idea of "Free Will" comes from "freedom to make choices or decisions". Just as God did not intercede with Adam when he bit the apple. God did not stop him and only told him that he could eat of anything, except from the Tree of Life.
Adam had "Free will" to make that choice. So, in reality, "Free Will" started with Adam.
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RE: Free Will - 1/28/2009 8:37:57 AM
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dkoglesby
Posts: 6
Joined: 1/26/2009
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Thank you so much for your input. It really helps. I will use this analogy
when talking to non-believers in the future. I will also use it when talking
to youth.
Thanks Again!
In His Service.
David Oglesby
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RE: Free Will - 1/28/2009 8:41:07 AM
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dkoglesby
Posts: 6
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhpmike
To the Free Will crowd,
For what do you pray when you pray for an unbeliever to come to Jesus (a family member, childhood friend, neighbor, dying relative)?
See, I pray that despite their defiant, self-righteous, evil-loving will that seems to appealing, that God would open their eyes to the truth. That his Gospel would overcome their hardened heart/will and change their hard heart into one of flesh.
It is hard for me to imagine the prayer of the Free-Will proponent:
"God, Thank you for letting them making their own choices, but I'd really wish that they'd make a different choice. Could you do something in their life that would make your choice more appealing ... but not so appealing that it would take away the freedom of their will? Thanks a lot God. Love you, amen."
I agree that we should always pray for the sinner and non-believer, regardless of who they are. But God still allows us to make our choices
which means "Free Will". (Free will to make choices)
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RE: Free Will - 1/28/2009 12:56:24 PM
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CindySc
Posts: 2249
Joined: 12/17/2008
From: a two little redlight town
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God could have made us any way he wanted, but he didn't do that, he gave us a free will. Can you see the love in that and the heartache also. He knew some of us would never want to know him, but he still died for even those that he knew would reject him. It is not his will that any should perish, it says that in his word. He also died for all and said that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. When you say the word predestined, it almost sounds like God chose not to save certain of us and that just isn't true. It was predestined from the foundation of the world that Christ would die for us so that man could be redeemed. He lets us chose. With Paul on the road to Damascus, aren't you thankful God sometimes goes to extreme measures with people? Sometimes that is what it takes, but the choice is still ours.
< Message edited by CindySc -- 1/28/2009 1:10:24 PM >
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