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Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 1/31/2009 8:48:03 AM
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tHEwESTERNrEBEL
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I always wondered this. Sometimes, when one reads the Bible they are left wondering "Why would God tell them to do this or that?" - I mean, some of the things in the Bible are pretty strange, lets face it.
When I read the Bible, some things make total sense, but usually only after someone explains it to me. There is a lot of comfort in my life from people who explain the Bible from a Calvinist view, while there is a lot of anxiety in my life from people who explain the Bible from an Arminian view. In other words, the Bible makes alot of sense to me if taken in the context of one having full assurance of salvation, but not so much sense if we do not. Does that make any sense?
Here is another way of putting it. Some teachings from the Bible bring great comfort, others great fear. Some things make sense and some do not; but is it because I am not thinking right about it, or is it just not supposed to make sense?
Here is a teaching for example, where it tells people to honor their parents. But then Jesus states that whoever won't hate their parents for His sake are not worthy of Him. For the Christian with unsaved parents, it is not possible to always "honor" the wishes of their unsaved parents, because they might have evil motives.
Ok, well lets see if anyone else notices this or not.
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 1/31/2009 9:16:07 AM
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agapetos
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I don't think Jesus is telling us that we have to hate our parents. Is it possible that it is an expression to emphasise what he is saying? We need to be prepared to turn away from our old lives/friends/family if that is what is required. And you can hate the evil deeds they commit.
Honouring doesn't mean that we always must do what our unsaved parents want us to do ~ that's not honouring, that's complying. Sometimes it seems that the 'rules' about gossip don't include our parents and we feel we have a right to talk about them badly (especially if we have been treated badly ourselves). Many Christians will go out of their way to help someone while ignoring the needs of their parents.
I think you need to look at the Bible in perspective. Don't read a couple of verses here and then a couple of verses there and say that they don't make sense ~ read the whole chapter (and more) if necessary.
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 1/31/2009 12:31:29 PM
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drmark
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quote:
There is a lot of comfort in my life from people who explain the Bible from a Calvinist view, while there is a lot of anxiety in my life from people who explain the Bible from an Arminian view. In other words, the Bible makes alot of sense to me if taken in the context of one having full assurance of salvation, but not so much sense if we do not. Does that make any sense? It appears you have never had someone who really understands Arminian doctrine correctly ever explain the Bible to you. I personally find the Calvinist doctrines of limited Atonemnt and unconditional election to be completely devoid of "full assurance of salvation" until one wakes up in Heaven or hell! But we better get to your OP title or risk Moderator wrath. 
Is the Bible designed to be understood by and through human common sense? Here's what Paul says in 1 Cor 2:6-16:
Wisdom From the Spirit
6.We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7.No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8.None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9.However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10.but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11.For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12.We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13.This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15.The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16."For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 1/31/2009 10:40:02 PM
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JStucki76
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brokenheart5
Here is a teaching for example, where it tells people to honor their parents. But then Jesus states that whoever won't hate their parents for His sake are not worthy of Him. For the Christian with unsaved parents, it is not possible to always "honor" the wishes of their unsaved parents, because they might have evil motives.
Ok, well lets see if anyone else notices this or not.
It is possible to honor one's parents while disagreeing with them.
And "hate" in the bible does not always mean "dislike." Often, it merely indicates a preference or a choice in favor of something else.
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/1/2009 9:37:19 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brokenheart5
For the Christian with unsaved parents, it is not possible to always "honor" the wishes of their unsaved parents, because they might have evil motives.
The word used here for honor means to "Fix vaslue on" it does not mean to blindly obey.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/1/2009 10:14:00 AM
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bob97
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God intended for His word to be cryptic and it is only understood thorough faith and study. In this way His message is hidden to the secular world. It is faith and love that drives us to study and learn.
For the one whom studies the message becomes better understood everyday and our spiritual enlightenment moves us along the road to our own spiritual growth. I would go as far to say that even the most serious student of the bible learns something new every day.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/1/2009 7:24:18 PM
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rhpmike
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quote:
The word used here for honor means to "Fix vaslue on" it does not mean to blindly obey.
Although Eph. does tell children to "obey" there parents, so we cannot ignore that teaching, even if honor and obey are not synonyms.
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/1/2009 7:44:03 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhpmike
quote:
The word used here for honor means to "Fix vaslue on" it does not mean to blindly obey.
Although Eph. does tell children to "obey" there parents, so we cannot ignore that teaching, even if honor and obey are not synonyms.
I think we have to use good old common sense sometimes....
If our parents told us to jump off a cliff onto rocks or go out and murder someone, should we still obey them?
Just my opinion, but common sense tells me it wouldn't be such a great idea.
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
My blog
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/1/2009 11:39:12 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
God intended for His word to be cryptic and it is only understood thorough faith and study. In this way His message is hidden to the secular world. It is faith and love that drives us to study and learn.
For the one whom studies the message becomes better understood everyday and our spiritual enlightenment moves us along the road to our own spiritual growth. I would go as far to say that even the most serious student of the bible learns something new every day.
Bob
I understand your desire to encourage study the Sriptures and that Yeshua stated that he spoke in parables for the sake of confounding those who were not serious about learning. However, the principle you present above is the basis of gnosticism. I would say it wouldbe much less dangerious to simply note that the Scriptures were given to specific people at specific times and one must understand the literal and cultural setting to understand a particular verse. Admittedly, the Spirit of Adonai does provide guidance in those areas where the Scriptures are not clear, but to imply that there are some special hidden secrets that one must discover in order to understand the Scriptures seems a bit elitist.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/2/2009 4:47:40 AM
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tenderandgentleheart
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Brokenheart
I believe that the Bible is there to show us how we should live, What has happend and what is to come. I don't try to pretend that i understand it all because that would be a lie I don't.
But I do find If i pray about things I don't understand that God will reveil that bit of the scripture to me, one way or another. I may hear someone talking about it on the radio, or I go to church and the paster will get up there and start talk about it. It is wonderful what God will reveil to us if we simple ask. That is why we have the Spirit of truth to teach us all things. And is why we should try and live in the Spirit and not in the flesh and to do that we must stay in God Word. May God bless you love Jenny
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/2/2009 4:10:40 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6717
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhpmike
quote:
The word used here for honor means to "Fix vaslue on" it does not mean to blindly obey.
Although Eph. does tell children to "obey" there parents, so we cannot ignore that teaching, even if honor and obey are not synonyms.
And what when they are no longer children?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/3/2009 6:57:18 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And what when they are no longer children?
Thanks
RC
We may not be children with regard to age or maturity, but we are always children with regard to honoring our parents.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/3/2009 8:02:43 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1810
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brokenheart5
I always wondered this. Sometimes, when one reads the Bible they are left wondering "Why would God tell them to do this or that?" - I mean, some of the things in the Bible are pretty strange, lets face it.
When I read the Bible, some things make total sense, but usually only after someone explains it to me. There is a lot of comfort in my life from people who explain the Bible from a Calvinist view, while there is a lot of anxiety in my life from people who explain the Bible from an Arminian view. In other words, the Bible makes alot of sense to me if taken in the context of one having full assurance of salvation, but not so much sense if we do not. Does that make any sense?
Here is another way of putting it. Some teachings from the Bible bring great comfort, others great fear. Some things make sense and some do not; but is it because I am not thinking right about it, or is it just not supposed to make sense?
Here is a teaching for example, where it tells people to honor their parents. But then Jesus states that whoever won't hate their parents for His sake are not worthy of Him. For the Christian with unsaved parents, it is not possible to always "honor" the wishes of their unsaved parents, because they might have evil motives.
Ok, well lets see if anyone else notices this or not.
In some ways I hate to join the ranks of those who use this phrase, but I must. It is context, context, context.
And the context is Jesus. The context is ALWAYS Jesus.
So when we understand and interpret scripture in the context of Jesus, Who He is, then and only then does it make sense because He makes the ultimate sense. And the key to correct understanding, interpretation and application is knowing Him.
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/3/2009 9:20:48 PM
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rhpmike
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quote:
And what when they are no longer children?
then they still honor, even in the context of not obeying.
I wasn't disagreeing, just saying that the whole "Honoring isn't the same thing as obeying" doesn't quickly solve all of the problems.
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/3/2009 11:00:48 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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quote:
I understand your desire to encourage study the Sriptures and that Yeshua stated that he spoke in parables for the sake of confounding those who were not serious about learning. However, the principle you present above is the basis of gnosticism. I would say it wouldbe much less dangerious to simply note that the Scriptures were given to specific people at specific times and one must understand the literal and cultural setting to understand a particular verse. Admittedly, the Spirit of Adonai does provide guidance in those areas where the Scriptures are not clear, but to imply that there are some special hidden secrets that one must discover in order to understand the Scriptures seems a bit elitist.
Blue I didn't say that there were hidden secrets but you will have to admit that to the secular mind or a person just picking up the bible, much of the meaning of scripture is quite difficult to understand and in fact to one not called by faith it is nonsense.
A person can read a verse several times before the intent is known and many times it is only in context to another verse elsewhere in the bible.
Maybe you didn't have this problem but brother I sure did as I started my study and it was only after several time through that I started to pick up the thread that exists from Genesis to Revelation. So maybe it is just me.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/4/2009 4:58:33 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Blue I didn't say that there were hidden secrets but you will have to admit that to the secular mind or a person just picking up the bible, much of the meaning of scripture is quite difficult to understand and in fact to one not called by faith it is nonsense.
A person can read a verse several times before the intent is known and many times it is only in context to another verse elsewhere in the bible.
Maybe you didn't have this problem but brother I sure did as I started my study and it was only after several time through that I started to pick up the thread that exists from Genesis to Revelation. So maybe it is just me.
Bob
Yes, anything written in a different time period to people in a culture vastly different from our own that is shrouded in layers of rabbinic, authoritarian and reformist dogma is difficult to understand. I to had difficulty understanding the Scriptures when I first read them for myself, much like the ethiopian eunich. Unfortunately, there are extremely few Philips in this world, who are willing to guide people through the Scriptures. Many people simply point to some creed or commentary and say, "This sums things up. No need to look any further. Here is the key to knowledge that was so important to Adonai that He made sure to hide it from everyone but his special chosen few, that just happens to include you and me, but I'm not always sure about you."
Sorry, I do not believe Adonai "intended for His word to be cryptic". The only reason that it takes faith and study to understand the Scriptures is because we choose to use them to justify doing whatever makes us feel good about ourselves. This is why I believe Yeshua talked in parables, so that His words would not be used as license to justify the purversions we see throughout the christian church. Unfortunately, that has not stopped some from interpreting those parables for us, or our arrogantly defining terms out of context to justify our pet doctrines.
Sorry, to get preachy. I prefer to discuss things in a rational manner with an eye to what the Scriptures actually say in context. Though you did encourage study, I can no longer allow even the hint of Adonai hiding anything from anybody. If anything is hidden, it is because we do not really want to know. As Yeshua said, (Mt 7:7)"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" I am just so full of hearing that Adonai has been anything other than open and honest with His creation from the beginning that my eyeballs are not just dark brown any more, but have turned green from the putrid bile that comes from those who claim to have no doubt they have discovered "the key" to a new and different way.
(Deep breath, Deep breath, Deep breath)
Ok, I think I'm all right now. What were you saying?
Oh yes, it takes dedicated study of the Scriptures to resolve some of the apparent conflicts. I agree. That is why I believe we are told that, (Deut 6:6-9) "these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates." and again, (2Ti 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 2/4/2009 5:07:49 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/6/2009 6:10:41 PM
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rcjames
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Scripture admonishes us to "Fix value on our parent"; to honor them.
But Scriptue also states, in a number of paces that;
(Eph 5:31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
So I would take that to be that the man and his wife are one unto each other, they respect thier parents; but the child-like obedience to the parents is no longere applicable.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/6/2009 11:25:25 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Scripture admonishes us to "Fix value on our parent"; to honor them.
But Scriptue also states, in a number of paces that;
(Eph 5:31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
So I would take that to be that the man and his wife are one unto each other, they respect thier parents; but the child-like obedience to the parents is no longere applicable.
Thanks
RC
I do not see the conflict. Why must one choose between one's spouse and one's parents. If the parents are involved in the marital decision, as I believe they should, one should have an amicable relationship with one's inlaws.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Is the Bible supposed to "make sense"? - 2/17/2009 7:03:27 AM
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DaveW
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To the OP: We have a totally different logic framework than what the bible was written in. Neither Calvinism or Arminianism can adequately describe it. From what I have seen the only ones that do not struggle with the logic of the bible (including the NT) are the Jews that have immersed their life in study of rabbinic texts and are completely versant in that logic system.
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