Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (Full Version)

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ChristopherJ007 -> Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 9:02:16 AM)

On February 15th, we are hosting True Love Waits at our church - an international campaign designed to challenge students to remain sexually abstinent until marriage. After posting information about this event on my blog, I got a very curious and surprising comment from a single adult 'Christian' who argued with me, saying that he believed that it is okay for people to have sex before marriage...

And so I throw this question out to the rest of you - is there anyone else who shares this radical viewpoint? I'm curious! And I would love to hear what Scriptures you use to support your position - either for or against sex before marriage.

Looking forward to discussing this with you all...



rcjames -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 9:18:04 AM)

I certainly do not agree that sex before marriage is okey dokey with God.

Fornication is spoken to in many many places in Scripture, and it is always spoken to as it being a sin, being forbidden, or keeping one out of Heaven.

There is a thread somewhere in the Morality and ethics folder on this subject that might give you some insight.

Thanks
RC



GodsMusic -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 9:44:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ007

... I got a very curious and surprising comment from a single adult 'Christian' who argued with me, saying that he believed that it is okay for people to have sex before marriage...


Looking forward to discussing this with you all...


I'd love to see what chapter and verse he used.



benelchi -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 9:57:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ007

On February 15th, we are hosting True Love Waits at our church - an international campaign designed to challenge students to remain sexually abstinent until marriage. After posting information about this event on my blog, I got a very curious and surprising comment from a single adult 'Christian' who argued with me, saying that he believed that it is okay for people to have sex before marriage...

And so I throw this question out to the rest of you - is there anyone else who shares this radical viewpoint? I'm curious! And I would love to hear what Scriptures you use to support your position - either for or against sex before marriage.

Looking forward to discussing this with you all...



"First, The terms "young woman" and "virgin" are nearly synonymous in Hebrew and Greek; so much so that this has often been a point of debate among translators about how to translate these terms into English. Additionally, in Hebrew the terms for "sexually promiscuous" and "harlot" are the same and nearly the same in Greek. The reality is that the culture of the bible so expected virginity at marriage that the very language itself allows almost no room for anything else; in the biblical texts one marries a virgin, a divorced woman, a widow, or a harlot. Those that try to argue for acceptance of premarital sex in the bible always try to draw a distinction between sex with harlots and sex within a relationship outside of marriage; however, the culture in which the bible was written never made such a distinction. One graphic example of this is in Deut. 22 where the Law said that a woman found not to be a virgin at marriage could be stoned. There are so many passages in the bible that are impossible to reconcile with the idea that sex outside of marriage is permitted that it is hard to know even where to begin. I will present just these to begin with from 1 Cor.


As you read this first passage, realize that in the 1st century a promiscuous woman was synonymous with a prostitute. Also notice the allusion back to Genesis and the description of the marriage relationship from Genesis i.e. "The two will become one flesh."

"Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. (1Co 6:16-20 NIV)

Paul says here that the marital (sexual) rights belong to our spouse, and not ourselves. How can we give away our bodies in this manor to someone who is not our spouse because it is not something we have the right to give away.

"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Co 7:1-5 NIV)

Why would marriage be required to prevent someone from "burning with passion" if sex outside of the marrital relationship was permitted?

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."(1Co 7:8-9 NIV)



RJR_fan -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 10:08:08 AM)

When a single man defiles a virgin, he owes her family double the normal dowry. If they then permit him to marry the girl (and that is at their discretion), divorce is not an option.

I believe that summarizes the Mosaic law concerning intercourse between consenting singles. I wrote a short story (s.f.) on that theme a few years ago ... click here to read it, let me know what you think!



Liveloved -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 11:31:08 AM)

quote:

I got a very curious and surprising comment from a single adult 'Christian' who argued with me, saying that he believed that it is okay for people to have sex before marriage...


Don't be surprised, christopher. I'm not.[sm=icon_smile_cry.gif]

Unfortunately people 'believe' all kinds of things. . . most of which is untrue. Our flesh is deceitful and how easily we are drawn to 'truths' that appeal to our selfish desires.

That's why the prayer of our hearts needs to continually be for the Lord to make known to us what is not of Him so that it can be rooted out, confessed, repented of and gotten rid of.

When I read Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer, I was not surprised when Joseph Smith received a revelation from God that he could have multiple wives. Hmmm, talk about appealing to the flesh.

Anyway, as others have already said, God's word is very clear on purity and defilement. Perhaps people can't read.[:D]



Ross.Lang -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 11:49:33 AM)

This is not a post in support of premarital sex, but I think I can provide some insight into where the post might have come from, having struggled with this question in my own relationship. Here are some things to consider:
1. The first, and the biggest, is that the Church had nothing to do with the institution of marriage for centuries. Marriage was a pact beween individuals that the state recognized in taxes and land holdings, and the early Christians added to it the Israelite notion of a pact before God. Notice that this pact, this pact, and only this pact had anything to do with the Christian covenant of Marriage from the time of Christ until the dark ages. You will find no stories of Apostles or Elders marrying people in the NT, because it never happened. Want to get married? Your families agree, you get down on your knees together and you say "I take this woman as you took the Church," "I take this man as the Church clings to Christ." Congrats, your yes is yes, your no is no, and you are married for life. The $10,000 pagentry, $1,000-5,000 rings and the huge church service officiated by a minister is totally alien to Christian marriage by NT standards. The bible is clear that pacts of truth (oaths are forbidden in all cases) are made on the basis of a person's internal relationship with God. Therefore, no minister or witness is needed. God judges the hearts of men. While the above information is accurate, I do submit that most parishioners who present it to me from their research went and dug up info to suit their own desires, not the other way around.
2. The theology of marriage propagated in most conservative circles is about as ethically sound as the holocaust (unlike the first part, which was just historical insight, this is something I really do hate). The Josh Harris/John Eldridge argument most typically given goes like this: if you have sex before you get married, you transgress scripture (good so far) and you also are sleeping with someone else’s spouse! The second part is the problem. For background, I’ve been dating my Fiancée for 5 years, and we are engaged to be married in June. I have never dated anyone else, loved anyone else, planned to marry anyone else. The problem with the second argument is that it gives people asymptotic justification for sin (as you get closer and closer to the wedding date, the validity of the assumption that you will not wed approaches zero). Why not hop into bed the night before the wedding? The week before? Don’t try to justify the word of God with cute logical analogies, because they break down. Provided we don’t die and Christ stays his return until June, does that mean I could have slept with my girlfriend at any time during the 5 year period and not done anything wrong?
That’s probably something like what was going through the poster's mind on your site mind. I do think it would behoove the Church to try and denounce the huge pageants that surround weddings. Many ancient people were married at 14-16; think how much sexual sin would be prevented by something like that! When people are in college or university, they often cannot afford to entertain their relatives, but neither can they afford the scorn of their family for failing to do so. We shouldn’t put young people in this trap: weddings, as the ancient church correctly assessed, are between God and a couple. If relatives want to come and celebrate, let them pick up the tab.
-Ross



benelchi -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 12:54:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang

This is not a post in support of premarital sex, but I think I can provide some insight into where the post might have come from, having struggled with this question in my own relationship. Here are some things to consider:
1. The first, and the biggest, is that the Church had nothing to do with the institution of marriage for centuries. Marriage was a pact beween individuals that the state recognized in taxes and land holdings, and the early Christians added to it the Israelite notion of a pact before God. Notice that this pact, this pact, and only this pact had anything to do with the Christian covenant of Marriage from the time of Christ until the dark ages. You will find no stories of Apostles or Elders marrying people in the NT, because it never happened. Want to get married? Your families agree, you get down on your knees together and you say "I take this woman as you took the Church," "I take this man as the Church clings to Christ." Congrats, your yes is yes, your no is no, and you are married for life. The $10,000 pagentry, $1,000-5,000 rings and the huge church service officiated by a minister is totally alien to Christian marriage by NT standards. The bible is clear that pacts of truth (oaths are forbidden in all cases) are made on the basis of a person's internal relationship with God. Therefore, no minister or witness is needed. God judges the hearts of men. While the above information is accurate, I do submit that most parishioners who present it to me from their research went and dug up info to suit their own desires, not the other way around.


Sorry, but all of the historical information we have stands in direct contradiction to what you have proposed. Not only do we have descriptions of the Wedding ceremony numerous times in Scripture, but the Mishnah outlines the requirements that must be met for the marriage covenant in first century Judaism, and the practice of marriage in the early church mirrored almost identically the Jewish wedding. Even Jesus first miracle was at a wedding. And it is historically well know that the ring today is a modern version of the dowry spoken of in biblical and extra biblical literature. Weddings in the bible were as much a community celebration as they are today. In the 4th Century Augustin specifically addressed the "false doctrine" that a marriage could exist without a covenant in his letter to faustus the manichæan. In arguing against the idea that all oaths were forbidden he uses the example of the oath a witness to a crime takes before the courts when he gives his testimony.

quote:


2. The theology of marriage propagated in most conservative circles is about as ethically sound as the holocaust (unlike the first part, which was just historical insight, this is something I really do hate). The Josh Harris/John Eldridge argument most typically given goes like this: if you have sex before you get married, you transgress scripture (good so far) and you also are sleeping with someone else’s spouse! The second part is the problem. For background, I’ve been dating my Fiancée for 5 years, and we are engaged to be married in June. I have never dated anyone else, loved anyone else, planned to marry anyone else. The problem with the second argument is that it gives people asymptotic justification for sin (as you get closer and closer to the wedding date, the validity of the assumption that you will not wed approaches zero). Why not hop into bed the night before the wedding? The week before? Don’t try to justify the word of God with cute logical analogies, because they break down. Provided we don’t die and Christ stays his return until June, does that mean I could have slept with my girlfriend at any time during the 5 year period and not done anything wrong?


I think the issue here is that first, the bible declares the action to be sinful, period. Outside of marriage their is no biblical justification for sex. Second, even though the issue approaches "zero", as you put it, as the wedding night approaches, it does not become "zero" until there is a wedding. If one is so absolutely sure that the wedding will take place that they believe that have a right to the privileges of marriage then why not move up the date?



terryjohn -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 1:46:21 PM)

I think the trap is set in what true love is. Unfortunately, satan loves to distort the meaning of words and half the battle will be to resurrect the true meaning.

Many would then today think that giving yourself sexually to another is a sign of love even if they had no intention of making a life long commitment. In this state of mind, you could be described as very loving by having slept with many. Unfortunately, they are not giving at all, but rather taking. For in the act they are destroying the others dignity, respect and betraying their trust for in their hearts they know and desire sexual relationships with others.

The truth is every man may well desire to have many sexual partners but he simply does not want partners who themselves have had numerous sexual partners.

The truth is, we are not in love for what others can give us. Love is not a desire of the flesh which is perishing but a love of the spirit and soul. Those who feed the desires of the flesh are destroyed by it. Fortunately the destructiveness of sexual imorality for it is apparent and self evident.

The other excuse is that everyone does it, is also one reason to abstain for everyone has sinned as well.

The battle ahead is that love is not the same as sex or lust. You could see it as an issue of sex before love or sex without love.

I would also see the argument that a couple should live together before being married. Their argument is that it would prevent divorce but the truth is many times more such relationships end in seperation than do marriages. In the end only chirstians should get married.



benelchi -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 1:50:08 PM)

quote:

I would also see the argument that a couple should live together before being married. Their argument is that it would prevent divorce but the truth is many times more such relationships end in seperation than do marriages. In the end only chirstians should get married.


Interestingly enough, the statistics show that when these relationships do make it to marriage, the marriages end in divorce almost twice as frequently when their was a "trial" live together period before the marriage. The "test drive" statistically seems to be very dangerous to the health of a marriage.



deermousie -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 1:53:30 PM)

Matthew 15:19;
Mark 7:21;
Acts 15:20;
Acts 15:29;
Acts 21:25;
Romans 1:29;
1 Corinthians 5:9;
1 Corinthians 6:13;
1 Corinthians 6:18;
1 Corinthians 10:8;
2 Corinthians 12:21;
Galatians 5:19-21;
Ephesians 5:3;
Colossians 3:5;
1 Thessalonians 4:3;
Jude 1:7;
Revelation 2:21;
Revelation 9:21

God is not silent.

He has thoroughly condemned fornication (sex before marriage) and sexual immorality (with includes sex before marriage).



benelchi -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 1:55:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deermousie

Matthew 15:19;
Mark 7:21;
Acts 15:20;
Acts 15:29;
Acts 21:25;
Romans 1:29;
1 Corinthians 5:9;
1 Corinthians 6:13;
1 Corinthians 6:18;
1 Corinthians 10:8;
2 Corinthians 12:21;
Galatians 5:19-21;
Ephesians 5:3;
Colossians 3:5;
1 Thessalonians 4:3;
Jude 1:7;
Revelation 2:21;
Revelation 9:21

God is not silent.

He has thoroughly condemned fornication (sex before marriage) and sexual immorality (with includes sex before marriage).


Amen,

And you have only touched the surface of all God has said against sexual immorality.



Little_1 -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 2:25:45 PM)

I agree with what God's Word teaches regarding sexual relations being intended for within a marriage relationship. There has been many Scripture references given to support this posted already. God is wise and we do well to heed what He has to say about this subject. So many problems can arise when we do not keep sexual relations within the context of marriage.

Sex is so freely given away these days that the whole sanctity of it has been sadly corrupted and cheapened sadly not just without the body of Christ but within as well.



LCannon -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 4:07:34 PM)

quote:

He has thoroughly condemned fornication (sex before marriage) and sexual immorality (with includes sex before marriage).


Is God a just cosmic killjoy? The marriage contract is an illustration of waiting(enduring?)for consummation for the final Glory(obedience)until the marriage supper of the Lamb.



Ross.Lang -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 4:13:50 PM)

Benelchi, you seem to be confused.
quote:

we have descriptions of the Wedding ceremony numerous times in Scripture

Do you notice something? Is a rabbi or priest ever present in one single scriptural account? The closest you get is the elders of the city in Ruth, and that was for the negotiation of property rights, not for the marriage pact. Also, do you see anything in any of those sexual ethics verses that gives the vaguest hint that having your family present is a vital part of the marriage ceremony to avoid sin?
quote:

but the Mishnah outlines the requirements that must be met for the marriage covenant in first century Judaism

Who cares? Jewish converts made up less than five percent of all Christians after the 1st century or two of the church’s existence. To conflate the Mishnah with Church history is an awful blunder, but necessary to your argument because it says more than ancient Church history does about official marriage ceremonies, vis. not a thing.
quote:

and the practice of marriage in the early church mirrored almost identically the Jewish wedding.

So the guy told the city "This is my wife" and it was done, like in Ruth? Or sent some Camels to the girl’s father, like in Genesis? Or swapped a pile of foreskins for her, like in 1st Samuel? Where do you see any sort of sacred ceremony in scripture? Are you suggesting that having a family banquet is vital to avoid sin, or that the number of people you invite makes your marriage more holy? Is an eloping couple married without their family’s presence (but with their family’s blessing) sinning?
quote:

Weddings in the bible were as much a community celebration as they are today.

But is that celebration necessary to prevent sin?

-Ross



rcjames -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 4:27:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ007
I got a very curious and surprising comment from a single adult 'Christian' who argued with me, saying that he believed that it is okay for people to have sex before marriage...


This guy needs two things; salvation and a good Bible study. And if he is trying to date your little sister; then he needs to be took out behind the barn and beat like a rented mule.

Thanks
RC



benelchi -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 4:38:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang

Benelchi, you seem to be confused.
quote:

we have descriptions of the Wedding ceremony numerous times in Scripture

Do you notice something? Is a rabbi or priest ever present in one single scriptural account? The closest you get is the elders of the city in Ruth, and that was for the negotiation of property rights, not for the marriage pact. Also, do you see anything in any of those sexual ethics verses that gives the vaguest hint that having your family present is a vital part of the marriage ceremony to avoid sin?


Do you notice something, the stories NEVER say that a Jewish priest/levite wasn't present. The stories in the bible weren't trying to dictate the legal requirements of the marriage ceremony, they were describing the festivities of the wedding. However, we do have the description of the legal requirements for marriage in the Mishnah i.e. we understand what the historical legal requirement of the marriages described in the biblical accounts were because those details have been recorded in other works. Sorry, this argument just doesn't align with history.

quote:


quote:

but the Mishnah outlines the requirements that must be met for the marriage covenant in first century Judaism

Who cares? Jewish converts made up less than five percent of all Christians after the 1st century or two of the church’s existence. To conflate the Mishnah with Church history is an awful blunder, but necessary to your argument because it says more than ancient Church history does about official marriage ceremonies, vis. not a thing.


Most church historians do care because the Jewish Christians were by far the largest majority during the first two centuries when these doctrinal issues were first being decided.

quote:


quote:

and the practice of marriage in the early church mirrored almost identically the Jewish wedding.

So the guy told the city "This is my wife" and it was done, like in Ruth? Or sent some Camels to the girl’s father, like in Genesis? Or swapped a pile of foreskins for her, like in 1st Samuel? Where do you see any sort of sacred ceremony in scripture? Are you suggesting that having a family banquet is vital to avoid sin, or that the number of people you invite makes your marriage more holy? Is an eloping couple married without their family’s presence (but with their family’s blessing) sinning?
quote:

Weddings in the bible were as much a community celebration as they are today.

But is that celebration necessary to prevent sin?

-Ross


Again, you have extrapolated far more than can be taken from these stories; however, the point isn't whether a ceremony is required (none is even required today), but whether a proclamation of a covenant made before the community is required before a marriage takes place i.e. can I get up and walk away tomorrow and declare that a marriage had never taken place or is the community aware of the covenant and the legal requirements of that covenant. In all of the examples you cited, it is clear from Scripture that the community knew of the covenant being made and the legal ramification of that covenant i.e. for example Boaz approached the nearest kin because he had the right of first refusal before marrying Ruth, and it is clear from the story that the nearest kin rejected Ruth because a child would have been entitled to the rights of inheritance because of the marriage.

And I do notice you completely ignored Augustin's response to this issue; in his letter he completely rejected the idea that a marriage could take place without a covenant/oath.



MissInnocent -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 6:21:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Don't be surprised, christopher. I'm not.[sm=icon_smile_cry.gif]

Unfortunately people 'believe' all kinds of things. . . most of which is untrue. Our flesh is deceitful and how easily we are drawn to 'truths' that appeal to our selfish desires.

That's why the prayer of our hearts needs to continually be for the Lord to make known to us what is not of Him so that it can be rooted out, confessed, repented of and gotten rid of.

When I read Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer, I was not surprised when Joseph Smith received a revelation from God that he could have multiple wives. Hmmm, talk about appealing to the flesh.

Anyway, as others have already said, God's word is very clear on purity and defilement. Perhaps people can't read.[:D]


I have read on other christian site more than one person claim that God led them to see that sex with someone you love but are not legally wed to is just fine and dandy. I don't know who they were listening to but I'm sure it wasn't God.



Ross.Lang -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 7:09:28 PM)

quote:

In all of the examples you cited, it is clear from Scripture that the community knew of the covenant being made and the legal ramification of that covenant i.e. for example Boaz approached the nearest kin because he had the right of first refusal before marrying Ruth, and it is clear from the story that the nearest kin rejected Ruth because a child would have been entitled to the rights of inheritance because of the marriage.

I agree. My whole point was that the structure of rings-minister-families-ceremony-reception is a Western construct. Really all you need is to tell your community, and to make a covenant together with God (in biblical terms). I do not think that the Western construct is evil, but it doesn't make or break a marriage.

quote:

And I do notice you completely ignored Augustin's response to this issue; in his letter he completely rejected the idea that a marriage could take place without a covenant/oath.

There's a good reason why I did, and it was for the sake of brevity. I believe about 200 years earlier, a Roman historian noted that Christians never swore oaths, presumably citing Matt. 5:37 as their reasoning (I will double check this when I can get to my ancient sources book, it's in storage now). If you're Catholic and think that Augustine could make some sort of ex cathedra revision to Christ's words based on his doctoral status in the Church, that's fine, but I'm not going to concede that he was right on this point. Augustine is not God. Jesus is.

-Ross



chrisovery -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 7:17:52 PM)

it is sad that so many people have twisted or not read the bible and believe that just because they put a claim on it that they are free to live however they want and god will be like oh great look they are down there living in sin but they are happy.

the sad thing about this is there are many people living and going to church with this same attitude. i hate to state it but the churches are in fact part to blame for this. with teachings like if you said that sinners prayer from your heart and meant it then you past present and future sins are forgiven. putting the implication in the air that it is alright to live any way we want because we are saved and god has forgiven us of everything. or they are taught dont double check what your pastor is stating, he is an authority figure and they are not to be questioned. yet the pastors are not talking about sin or what sin causes or that we have to repent everytime we fall into sin. not just once. a lot of people are not even studdying their bibles these days to know what it states.



deermousie -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 7:37:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chrisovery

it is sad that so many people have twisted or not read the bible and believe that just because they put a claim on it that they are free to live however they want and god will be like oh great look they are down there living in sin but they are happy.

the sad thing about this is there are many people living and going to church with this same attitude. i hate to state it but the churches are in fact part to blame for this. with teachings like if you said that sinners prayer from your heart and meant it then you past present and future sins are forgiven. putting the implication in the air that it is alright to live any way we want because we are saved and god has forgiven us of everything. or they are taught dont double check what your pastor is stating, he is an authority figure and they are not to be questioned. yet the pastors are not talking about sin or what sin causes or that we have to repent everytime we fall into sin. not just once. a lot of people are not even studdying their bibles these days to know what it states.


This is so true, Chrisovery, and so sad. So many churches are preaching "feel good" instead of the milk and meat of the Bible. I am convinced that they will be judged for that.

There are good churches out there - I go to one of them, and it's like seminary almost. :) They put the cookie jar down where the kids can reach it, but it's solid Bible, with a side order of hermeneutics and Church history. And they practice church discipline, and the church becomes self-cleaning.

God bless the men laboring in the pulpits who are delivering God's Word to God's people!



benelchi -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 7:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang

quote:

In all of the examples you cited, it is clear from Scripture that the community knew of the covenant being made and the legal ramification of that covenant i.e. for example Boaz approached the nearest kin because he had the right of first refusal before marrying Ruth, and it is clear from the story that the nearest kin rejected Ruth because a child would have been entitled to the rights of inheritance because of the marriage.

I agree. My whole point was that the structure of rings-minister-families-ceremony-reception is a Western construct. Really all you need is to tell your community, and to make a covenant together with God (in biblical terms). I do not think that the Western construct is evil, but it doesn't make or break a marriage.


As long as it as done in the way the community accepts as a binding marriage, I would agree. In our country that means a marriage license issued by the government. In Jesus day, that meant a document issued by the Jewish rulers. Simply declaring a commitment when such a declaration is not binding does not make a marriage.

quote:

And I do notice you completely ignored Augustin's response to this issue; in his letter he completely rejected the idea that a marriage could take place without a covenant/oath.

There's a good reason why I did, and it was for the sake of brevity. I believe about 200 years earlier, a Roman historian noted that Christians never swore oaths, presumably citing Matt. 5:37 as their reasoning (I will double check this when I can get to my ancient sources book, it's in storage now). If you're Catholic and think that Augustine could make some sort of ex cathedra revision to Christ's words based on his doctoral status in the Church, that's fine, but I'm not going to concede that he was right on this point. Augustine is not God. Jesus is.

-Ross


I think the historian you are referring to is Josephus, and he was not a Christian and demonstrated often that he did not quite understand Christian views. While we can get hints of what early Christianity looked like from his writings, he is really not a credible source for establishing the details of Christian doctrine. Augustine is a far more reliable witness when it comes to conveying the doctrines of the early church than was Josephus. I think most Christians understand that Augustine was not inspired, and while many question some of the doctrines he espoused, the still look to his writings to understand the history of the church. In this case the question is not whether he was right or wrong, but what did the early church believe.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 8:03:10 PM)

Essentially, as a christian, the act of sex bonds you to that person for the rest of your life. So, in some perverted weird way, sex, as a christian "marries" you to that person forever.

So....pre-marital sex as a christian, is "impossible".

The more important sex is in your marriage, the more chance your marriage is built on sinking sand. If sex is so important to you that you SIN for it...better get some counciling.

In our sex saturated, excuse laden irresponsible society, promiscious sex, which is really the topic here, is not only accepted, it is celebrated in almost every tv show, movie and water cooler conversation.

Sex, is a gift from God to married people.

Sex, is not preached in our churches except the don't's.

My pastor did an excellent sermon series on sex..... www.thebarenakedtruthaboutsex.com



benelchi -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 8:14:20 PM)

quote:

Essentially, as a christian, the act of sex bonds you to that person for the rest of your life. So, in some perverted weird way, sex, as a christian "marries" you to that person forever.

So....pre-marital sex as a christian, is "impossible".


Is there a "bonding" power to sex. Absolutely.

However, the bible does draw a distinction between marriage and sex outside of marriage. So while sex is "bonding", outside of marriage it is damaging. Sex does not, in and of itself itself, make a marriage.



deermousie -> RE: Is Sex Before Marriage Wrong... and what saith the Scriptures? (2/6/2009 9:03:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1


In our sex saturated, excuse laden irresponsible society, promiscious sex, which is really the topic here, is not only accepted, it is celebrated in almost every tv show, movie and water cooler conversation.


Too true. Like a gorilla given a fine violin.

quote:

Sex, is not preached in our churches except the don't's.

My pastor did an excellent sermon series on sex..... www.thebarenakedtruthaboutsex.com


Well, the "do's" are preached in your church and preached in mine...

I went to a Presbyterian wedding once and was floored by the frank "sermon" to the couple (and the minister was the father of the bride). It upset me until I thought, "Hey, if it's not legit to talk about sex in a wedding, when would it be legit?" Then I relaxed and enjoyed the rest of the service.

They're still happily married. [:)]



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