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RE: Lent? - 4/3/2009 8:51:19 PM
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LBolt
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Hey bloggy,
The food isn't bad to the believer because he know that all food comes from the LORD.
This is a neat discussion about Lent.
Do you have any comments about it?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Lent? - 4/3/2009 9:16:17 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I think you now what I'm speaking of. When you take practices (customs) that are used to celebrate another deity, and insert them into your faith, this is idolatry. This is adding to and taking away from God's word. It's called sin. This is what I've been discussing at great lengths. It's also called adultery. The Custom was idolatrous.
That is your sincere impression of scripture apparently. But the custom WAS idol worship. IDOL worship. The insertion was...I D O L S. There are actual IDOLs in all of the, don't be like the heathen scriptures.
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RE: Lent? - 4/3/2009 9:30:06 PM
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SpongeBlog
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I haven't really been following it until the last few posts.
The one thing I wish you could understand about the church you resist so much today (being reluctant, even refusing(?) to call yourself a 'christian') is that this isn't about defending and condoning particular traditions and practices of the Catholic church. Surely, the foundation of their practices is a little misguided, but the point you're missing is it ain't about our external worship anymore. That's the thing that doesn't matter anymore the way it used to. We've been released from that and now worship in freedom and sincerity and focus on what really counts.
Don't misunderstand the heart of this contentious matter--being filled with the Holy Spirit and being the new creation you have been made in Christ is what counts, not what days you worship God on, and in what way.
I personally don't do anything for Lent (I'm not Catholic). But I know that what really counts has been fully revealed and made possible for the people of God and pleases God above all things, and that once commanded and required worship stipulations no longer carry the weight and ministry of law like they once did (and, yes, they were required--something about that death penalty that made them required). We have been released from that and are free to worship and acknowledge God in ways that were not stipulated in the law. We are not under the guidance and restraint of the law anymore. I can worship him on any day and not in just the ways commanded in the old covenant. Christ himself has become the method and procedure of my worship. Is there any greater worship that pleases God than believing on the Lord Jesus Christ?
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Lent? - 4/4/2009 7:15:33 PM
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angel_wings13
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LBolt
Have you checked out the other thread I started in relation to Lent?
It consists of Daily Reflections for Lent to help participate in it and understand it. Perhaps if you read some of them you it might help you understand why we "do Lent"
Just food for thought.
_____________________________
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
John 8:7
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RE: Lent? - 4/4/2009 7:53:17 PM
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LBolt
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Thank you, I'll look through it.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Lent? - 4/4/2009 8:04:00 PM
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LBolt
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I don't question the motives or the "why's"...I understand and know the tradition. It has evolve much over the years. I believe that we have been given an inheritance of which we as believers should freely partake.
Angel_wings, you probably are a beautiful sincere believer who desires to please your LORD. The Scriptures tell us that if we love Him, then we'll keep His commandments and that they aren't grievous.
I've posted a lot of information about lents origins. It's like looking at Passover and it's roots and then looking at Lent and it's roots. On is birthed from the mind of God the other from man. I respect your intentions...I would say go to a Pesach service where Christ is preach and you'll see boat loads.
You take care and be blessed!! 
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Lent? - 4/4/2009 9:32:54 PM
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LBolt
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I skimmed and read through this thread...very insightful, I enjoyed it!
Most of the adoption and inclusion of extra stuff was mostly a means of evangelism of those who were not Christian and the result of non-Jewish presence in leadership. Persecution had a big role. Unfortunately, this lead to a loss of our roots. DaveW provides a lot of good insights. My intend in posting in this thread was really by mistake. I knew what your intent was but was responding to another thread.
As crazy as my first post sounded, this was where this was birthed. After reading your post and they way you approached me and invited me to read, I read through it more thoroughly. My assessment of you as a person seems to be dead on. You are angel and you have a beautiful heart.
I will respectfully not observe Lent for the reasons I've given...I don't doubt your heart and motives. Which is 80% of the battle. Take care.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Lent? - 4/4/2009 9:55:24 PM
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angel_wings13
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LBolt
Thank you for the kind words. All I ask from anyone is that they respect my (and other's) decision to observe Lent. I also respect your decision and reasons not too.
May God be with you all forever and ever!
_____________________________
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
John 8:7
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RE: Lent? - 4/5/2009 10:34:26 AM
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LBolt
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quote:
As a lifelong protestant Lent I have never been taught about Lent. I know that Lent is the period of time between Ash Wednesday (also something I know nothing about) and Easter. While I know Catholics and some protestants celebrate the season of Lent and abstain from various things during the time, why? Where does this practice come from and why give up something? Are there scripture references that guide the belief that you have to give up something you love/enjoy during this period?
This was the quote I responded to. This was the specific question I answered "Where does this practice come from and why give up something? Are there scripture references that guide the belief that you have to give up something you love/enjoy during this period?
Then the statement I gave come from this followed. People were offended. I doubt very seriously that someone who is a Protestant or Catholic who practices Lent would actually teach or share what I shared. Most do know (and/or obviously don't care where) this practice came from. When I was Prostestant most of my Christian life I was never taught about this or Easter, for the reasons stemming from ignorance and suppression. Kind of what you don't know can't hurt you.
What really bothered me was my muslim grandmother who tried to convert me to Islam and me trying to witness Christ to her, kept telling me that my faith was a "borrowed religion" and sent me information that proved it. Didn't make me one bit happy. Thank God I was rooted in my faith and the authority of Jesus Christ and someone was brave enough to honestly tell me where our customs came from, which was very similar to the information "grandma muslim" pointed out.
Did it hurt and anger me? Yes!!
But it made me dig for myself and study the Scriptures better to find out why, how...
I don't have all the answers but I certainly got more than I had before.
I understand why God told the Israelites to not learn the way of the heathen. I don't believe He wants any mixture. I believe that when He shines light on an area we are faced with a choice. Whereas ignorance is not an excuse, it is less severe. I think our High Priest has been and will continue to make intercession for us for mercy and truth to be shown so that our iniquity may be purged.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Lent? - 4/5/2009 11:51:04 AM
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Corne
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We are not to worship false gods AND God, true.
The problem with trying to escape the borrowed religion accusation is that it is not just customs and traditions that fall into that claim. Paganism claims that the "tradition"/beliefs of: Creation, A "Son" of God, A virgin mother, the flood etc all came from paganism and predate Judaism and Christianity. The great pagan deception. This is taught in world religion and basic history classes too.
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RE: Lent? - 4/5/2009 3:14:37 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...What really bothered me was my muslim grandmother who tried to convert me to Islam and me trying to witness Christ to her, kept telling me that my faith was a "borrowed religion" and sent me information that proved it. Didn't make me one bit happy. Thank God I was rooted in my faith and the authority of Jesus Christ and someone was brave enough to honestly tell me where our customs came from, which was very similar to the information "grandma muslim" pointed out.
What your grandma is proving is that freedom of conscience can be a stumbling block to others, not that what freedom of conscience does is never right. Paul proves this. The man Paul speaks of, who eats the meat sacrificed to a false idol, by a real idol worshiper, in a real idol's temple, gives thanks for that meat. Paul does not condemn the activity nor the man's thankfulness to God connected with it (quite the opposite in fact). So where do we draw the definitive line on the partaking of things contaminated by idol worship but which are connected with our own worship and adoration of God in some way? We can't. That's why I've been saying all along these kinds of matters of law end up being a matter of personal conviction and preference. Only someone's definitive judgement above everyone else's can settle those matters. But you firmly resist the system of rabbi's that God ordained for that very purpose.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...I understand why God told the Israelites to not learn the way of the heathen. I don't believe He wants any mixture.
God talks about adopting things that are sinful in and of themselves into our worship of him. The two biggees being child sacrifice, and temple prostitution. One other is making sacrifices anywhere, instead of at the one designated and appointed place. The first two things are obviously contrary to God's will for his people in or out of our designated worship. With this in mind, read the passage that talks about this 'mixing' of things done in worship of God...
" 29 The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods." (Deut. 12:29-31)
Makes a lot more sense when you understand it the way I've just shared. And this matter of the 'appointed place' (a few verses earlier) is loaded with spiritual truth way, way above the mere literal. The appearing of Christ is the appointed time and place and method which there is no allowance for deviation given by God. This meeting and worshiping of Christ must be on the designated altar of God--which is now the human heart, not a literal place and it's asssociated methods that the law legislated. That's what John 4 and the conversation with the woman at the well is all about.
The big struggle you're having is with your own conscience, not truth. You have yet to see that it is possible to not be bound by conscience and to be able to do things that have the appearance of disobedience to those of weak faith and conscience (That's what Paul says about them). I was that way once. It's a growth process. As you grow you begin to realize things like 'it's not about the day I do it on, it's about the worship', or 'it's not even about a required procedure of worship, it's about a humble and thankful heart'. David testifies to this revelation in the Psalm.
The one thing you are neglecting out of all your research is the fact that the very earliest christians, who would probably have known what day Christ rose on, wanted to honor that day by meeting on Sunday's. And I think you do know that one reason the resurrection is not celebrated in accordance with Passover was to keep that annual celebration of the resurrection also on the historical day of the week Christ rose--Sunday. The Sunday thing seems to be where all this tradition you resist is rooted--not a desire to conform to pagan worship. I've shown you in other posts over the months how even the Bible uses the sun as the symbolism of the dawning of the revelation of grace in the coming of Jesus Christ. Surely God must have been aware that pagans also made the connection between the sun and their gods, right?
I personally think it is regrettable what the church has done with her freedom over the years, not because she doesn't have that freedom, but not too much later after the resurrection, this idea devoloped that observing Jewish timetables and methods (aka, keeping the law) was always a matter of trampling the blood of Christ. It's too bad that this freedom thing turned into a misguided resistance to Judaism instead of the genuine worship of God and the giving of the new birth it originally started out as. I can't change that, but I don't get my undies in a bunch about it because I know it doesn't matter. There is no more judgement connected with the worship requirements of the old covenant. The new creation is what matters. And besides, even if we did convert back to the time table and methods of the old covenant we'd still have to argue and decide whose interpretation of this timetable we'd all conform to. Nothing would be accomplished through that decision.
One last thing. I'm not Catholic, nor will I ever be, but several years ago it was a real eye opener when I learned many of the underlying truths to their traditions--traditions that look to the casual observer on the outside as deliberate attempts to subvert the Bible (not just the OT). Several posters have proven the beauty and sincerity of the meaning behind some of these traditions. I'm not saying the Catholics aren't wrong on some things. I'm saying it's a big step of maturity to be able to understand and respect the motives and intents of others hearts who don't worship the way we think they should be worshiping. There really is something that counts more than what worship style you believe in, now that we're in the new covenant. Paul speaks at length about this truth. Walking in the fruit of the Spirit is the unifying element of the church, not our denominational convictions.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 4/5/2009 3:29:29 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Lent? - 4/5/2009 3:19:11 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
But I'm told that I'm worshiping a false idol if I eat a colored egg from my refrigerator as part of my celebration of Christ's resurrection because centuries ago people used to paint their eggs and eat them in worship of their false god?
not if you peel it first, Spongie. Then it loses its pagan shell and becomes a regular, kosher, hard boil egg.
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RE: Lent? - 4/5/2009 3:31:05 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
One last thing. I'm not Catholic, nor will I ever be, but several years ago it was a real eye opener when I learned many of the underlying truths to their traditions--traditions that look to the casual observer on the outside as deliberate attempts to subvert the Bible (not just the OT). Several posters have proven the beauty and sincerity of the meaning behind some of these traditions. I'm not saying the Catholics aren't wrong on some things. I'm saying it's a big step of maturity to be able to understand and respect the motives and intents of others hearts who don't worship the way we think they should be worshiping. There really is something that counts more than what worship style you believe in, now that we're in the new covenant. Paul speaks at length about this truth. Walking in the fruit of the Spirit is the unifying element of the church, not our denominational convictions.
Amen. I vote for Lent, when people are truly doing it to glorify God.
I see nothing wrong with taking some time before the day when we celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and taming the flesh, mind, sinful desires and truly humbling ourselves.
I might do it next year, who knows, especially if i am still in US. Sounds like a beautiful tradition, and very, very enriching.
I appreciate people that celebrate Passover , etc whole deal, but with all its significance, it doesnt even come close to solemn celebration of the Resurrection to me, sorry.
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RE: Lent? - 4/5/2009 3:47:25 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
But I'm told that I'm worshiping a false idol if I eat a colored egg from my refrigerator as part of my celebration of Christ's resurrection because centuries ago people used to paint their eggs and eat them in worship of their false god?
not if you peel it first, Spongie. Then it loses its pagan shell and becomes a regular, kosher, hard boil egg.
Hmmm.....interesting.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Lent? - 4/6/2009 1:40:32 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
But I'm told that I'm worshiping a false idol if I eat a colored egg from my refrigerator as part of my celebration of Christ's resurrection because centuries ago people used to paint their eggs and eat them in worship of their false god?
not if you peel it first, Spongie. Then it loses its pagan shell and becomes a regular, kosher, hard boil egg.
Hmmm.....interesting.
 well, you know where I was getting with this smart- aleck-ing:
if outward action determines the inside substance, then, by the same logic,
-a wedding band on your left hand is what makes you married. Taking it off makes you a temporary bachelor for the time it’s off.
-Observing Lent makes one a pagan, but Passover or whatever – good ,pleasing to God person.
-Blue egg shell means you r pagan, white – you r good.
That spells legalism, for there are Lent observers that are million times more pleasing to God then I, or DaveW, or Lbolt, or Sponge. Its not the certain outward acts of this or that tradition what makes us pleasing..
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RE: Lent? - 4/6/2009 2:40:25 PM
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Lapidoth
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Problem is many times, we go to one extreme or the other.
And, of course, my extreme, if I have one, is the right one.
I asked myself, and I confirmed me that I was right. lol.
Just a note, personally, I prefer to follow what I know for
a fact is in the Bible, and not the denominational traditions.
Okay, back to kicking sacred cows..................lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Lent? - 4/6/2009 2:52:28 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
What really bothered me was my muslim grandmother who tried to convert me to Islam and me trying to witness Christ to her, kept telling me that my faith was a "borrowed religion" and sent me information that proved it .
But if truth be told, Islam borrowed and copied alot from our Bible with alot garbage and mess , which is something they may not tell you as well! 
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Lent? - 4/6/2009 9:11:36 PM
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prophet
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quote:
Just a note, personally, I prefer to follow what I know for
a fact is in the Bible, and not the denominational traditions.
AMEN!
Surely The Lord wants us to study His word and follow..... rather than follow mens traditions? No? Surely?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Lent? - 4/6/2009 9:44:43 PM
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Corne
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It would depend on the tradition.
If I celebrate Thanksgiving every November is that somehow a sin? If I go to church that morning and worship is that a sin?
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RE: Lent? - 4/7/2009 1:44:46 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It would depend on the tradition.
If I celebrate Thanksgiving every November is that somehow a sin? If I go to church that morning and worship is that a sin?
Going off on tangents never settles a discussion.
There are obvious violations, and then there are
the things that happen in the lives of humans.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Lent? - 4/7/2009 2:31:10 PM
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Corne
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where's the obvious in this thread?
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RE: Lent? - 4/7/2009 2:56:16 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Just a note, personally, I prefer to follow what I know for
a fact is in the Bible, and not the denominational traditions.
Jesus fasted for 40 days, wasn't that in your bible?
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RE: Lent? - 4/7/2009 6:58:08 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Just a note, personally, I prefer to follow what I know for
a fact is in the Bible, and not the denominational traditions.
Jesus fasted for 40 days, wasn't that in your bible?
Jesus also wept...So do I have an annual day of weeping a week or so before Passover? He wasn't establishing a custom for His disciples to fast 40 days once a year. Last I checked it was 40 days w/out food. Are we doing that?
However, I do see Him doing Passover, Unleavened Bread...heck, in John 10:22 it alludes to the Hanukkha. Do we do this? Probably not, the majority of us dismiss this as well.
I enjoy doing Yah's feast because it intrinsically connects me to the people (of which I'm grafted into), the covenant (which makes the first possible) and the land (which I hope to one day inherit).
O.K. I had to jump on this one! -LOL! I'll be nice. I meant no harm by my remarks.
As far as Thanksgiving, I've heard that this was a mini-Tabernacles celebration...I haven't verified this. My point is this, most of the customs practiced in Christianity are burrowed from pagan sun god worship systems so much so until Torah and the Biblical Feasts including Sabbath are either neglected and or rationalized or symbolized away. One of the Feast is an Denomination and the Pentecoste isn't even observe in it's time. Places where it clearly provide a "Thus saith the LORD" or the "The LORD said..."are in the minds or hearts of people as obsolete.
If a word is mentioned about where something comes from and why it is adopted, we throw up "strawman's" defense walls to justify our actions.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 4/8/2009 9:19:57 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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. They were intended to poke a jab at those who believe only the way they do things are correct.