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When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/17/2009 11:27:10 PM
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Romans16_20
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From: Jawja.... Yall
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A local mega church (over 2000 average attendees) which has been in existence for over 100 years, about 6-8 months ago got a new preacher, if I gave his name, some of you would recognize it, a lot of you have read his books. These people thought they knew him. He started going more with feelings and less from the Bible. I don't go to the church so I wasn't there when this happened. My friend was, this is a person I would trust with my life there and is an active member. I don't trust easily but if she told me the sky turned purple, I wouldn't have to look up, I would know it did.
Easter Sunday (lots of visitors, and C & E Christians {Christmas and Easter}), this guy stands up in the pulpit and says Jesus didn't die on the Cross, he passed out and woke up 3 days later.
- - - - PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A DEBATE ON WHAT HE SAID, WE KNOW ITS WRONG!!! - - - -
My question is, how should this have been handled?
Had I been there I would have stood up and said something right then because of the severity of the lie he told. I was shocked that several other strong men of God who attend there, didn't say anything that day. I have since found out that several of the Deacons (Elders) have gone to him and are trying to discuss this with him "Biblically" (go by yourself, then if that doesn't work take 2-3 then a group). I don't think the man needs to be back in the pulpit this Sunday to further the lies and confusion he has started. I would have said he didn't need to be back in the pulpit Sunday night but hes done away with Sunday night service.
Am I too harsh on him and the church? I know it doesn't really matter since I am not a member or attend there. But my friend has asked for my opinion on the matter.
I could see going to him and taking your time if he said something like if you listen to rock music your going to Hell. Thats a non foundation idea. But when a preacher stands up and says something that so completely undermines the very foundation of Christianity, that to me MUST be dealt with swiftly and decisively. Again, I could be wrong, too harsh, and lacking grace, if so, I would like to know.
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With every Mac startup chime an angel to get its wings; Windows gong sends an angel crashes into a tree... Vista sends it into a tree, rolling down a mountain, and headlong into a tractor trailer doing 80!
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/17/2009 11:41:50 PM
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Bro_Shane
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Not your church = not your problem.
To discuss it is gossip. Leave it alone.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 12:26:25 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
Had I been there I would have stood up and said something right then because of the severity of the lie he told.
That is exactly what I would have done if it happened in my church.
quote:
Am I too harsh on him and the church? I know it doesn't really matter since I am not a member or attend there. But my friend has asked for my opinion on the matter.
I think you are correct to share your opinion with your friend on this matter. While you cannot do anything yourself (and your post makes it abundantly clear that you know that), giving biblical advice to a brother or sister in Christ is part of how we support one another, and it is biblical.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 9:21:32 AM
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earthless
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Because of the deep severity of the lie, I would have waited a few seconds to see if anyone got up.. if not, I would have stood up from my seat and in my loud voice (which I can project VERY loudly) would have said he was an outright liar.
Also, if this man holds a stage that goes beyond those church's four walls.. his name needs to be named. To warn others of not paying heed to a false teacher.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 9:23:37 AM
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earthless
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I also want to add that what he is adhering to is known as the 'Swoon Theory', which is absurd in a time of scientific enlightenment. It's a theory held by some Islamic circles and atheist/agnostic circles.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 1:56:46 PM
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iluvatar
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I realize that your friend is trustworthy, but I wonder if there was some sort of misunderstanding. I can't see that flying in any church I've ever been.
EDIT: Nevermind, I missed the part about the deacons confronting him later.
-Dan.
< Message edited by iluvatar -- 4/18/2009 5:46:50 PM >
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 2:03:09 PM
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c_h_b
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The elders handled it correctly. If it happened in your church, it should be handled the same way. Standing up and trying to shout down the acknowledged leader of your church isn't the way to do thing. Even in error, there still needs to be respect for his position until he is no longer the pastor.
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Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 2:05:00 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Romans16_20
...about 6-8 months ago got a new preacher, if I gave his name, some of you would recognize it, a lot of you have read his books.
... this guy stands up in the pulpit and says Jesus didn't die on the Cross, he passed out and woke up 3 days later.
Well if he's well known and written books then he's already probably past this stage:
quote:
ORIGINAL: TITUS
3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
This teaching that Christ did not fully die is as much heresy as saying Christ never rose, and the man does not belong behind ANY pulpit.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 7:31:38 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Not your church = not your problem.
To discuss it is gossip. Leave it alone.
I love this wisdom. Thank you. I want to remember this -- for many reasons.
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 8:50:59 PM
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GodsMusic
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Heretic ARE the church's problem.
That's like saying a school has discovered a pedophile teacher is not YOUR school's problem. Not so. Every school needs to know about the pedophile so as not to let him keep cycling through different school systems for his/her entire career. That happens all the time, as does false teachers.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 8:53:17 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Heretic ARE the church's problem.
That's like saying one school has a pedophile teacher is not YOUR school's problem. Not so. Every school needs to know about the pedophile so as not to let him keep cycling through different school systems for his/her entire career. That happens all the time, as does false teachers.
That is why false teachers and false prophets are allowed to spread their lies and heresies.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 9:28:52 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Heretic ARE the church's problem.
That's like saying a school has discovered a pedophile teacher is not YOUR school's problem. Not so. Every school needs to know about the pedophile so as not to let him keep cycling through different school systems for his/her entire career. That happens all the time, as does false teachers.
As I understand it, this service was not broadcast so the only people that have any right to handle this is the local congregation in which the remarks were made.
Also, even though the OP trusts her friend implicitly, I do not. I have been a pastor long enough to have seen many "good" and "trustworthy" people lie through their teeth, or either pass along things where the perspective and context is so skewed by what that person thinks is right or not.
The OP was not there, the OP did not hear - firsthand - the remarks, and the OP is not a member of the church in question. Therefore, the OP should not speak about things that she (I'm assuming the OP is a she) can not say with absolute certainty are truth. To do so is gossip.
If this man is a heretic then that church, after thoroughly investigating and dealing with it, should be the ones to make the declaration and/or provide either audio or visual proof of the remarks to any other church that may call this man to either preach or pastor.
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<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 11:33:33 PM
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GodsMusic
Posts: 714
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From: Arkansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
As I understand it, this service was not broadcast so the only people that have any right to handle this is the local congregation in which the remarks were made.
Also, even though the OP trusts her friend implicitly, I do not. I have been a pastor long enough to have seen many "good" and "trustworthy" people lie through their teeth, or either pass along things where the perspective and context is so skewed by what that person thinks is right or not.
The OP was not there, the OP did not hear - firsthand - the remarks, and the OP is not a member of the church in question. Therefore, the OP should not speak about things that she (I'm assuming the OP is a she) can not say with absolute certainty are truth. To do so is gossip.
If this man is a heretic then that church, after thoroughly investigating and dealing with it, should be the ones to make the declaration and/or provide either audio or visual proof of the remarks to any other church that may call this man to either preach or pastor.
So your first instincts is that someone has lied to the OP?
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 11:44:20 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
As I understand it, this service was not broadcast so the only people that have any right to handle this is the local congregation in which the remarks were made.
Also, even though the OP trusts her friend implicitly, I do not. I have been a pastor long enough to have seen many "good" and "trustworthy" people lie through their teeth, or either pass along things where the perspective and context is so skewed by what that person thinks is right or not.
The OP was not there, the OP did not hear - firsthand - the remarks, and the OP is not a member of the church in question. Therefore, the OP should not speak about things that she (I'm assuming the OP is a she) can not say with absolute certainty are truth. To do so is gossip.
If this man is a heretic then that church, after thoroughly investigating and dealing with it, should be the ones to make the declaration and/or provide either audio or visual proof of the remarks to any other church that may call this man to either preach or pastor.
So your first instincts is that someone has lied to the OP?
Maybe. Maybe what the OP was told wasn't intended as a lie, but told from a point of view that might not be unbiased. The person who told the OP might also be a person easily swayed by others. Then again, the person that told the OP may be 100% right. Either way, the OP can not say with absolute certainty because they weren't there. It is also nto the OP's church.
Should something be done if this is true? You bet. If this is true it is no small matter, it is heresy of the rankest sort. But it is up to the church to deal with it. If this sermon was broadcast in any way and the message went beyond the walls of the church then I would have no problem with involvement of some sort. But as long as this was done within a specific church it is that church's right and responsibility to deal with it without outside interference. Depending what denomination the church is, there may be others that come in to investigate or mediate, but anything else would be making an already touchy and painful situation even more so.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/18/2009 11:51:41 PM
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stolar1962
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it's up to the local assembly that called him to remove him. if the deacons or elders have approached him and he refuses to repent, then it is up to them to call a meeting and bring his error before the church before he can do more damage.
To bring it to those not involved is nothing more than politicizing and gossip.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/19/2009 12:57:21 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Should something be done if this is true? You bet. If this is true it is no small matter, it is heresy of the rankest sort. But it is up to the church to deal with it. If this sermon was broadcast in any way and the message went beyond the walls of the church then I would have no problem with involvement of some sort. But as long as this was done within a specific church it is that church's right and responsibility to deal with it without outside interference. Depending what denomination the church is, there may be others that come in to investigate or mediate, but anything else would be making an already touchy and painful situation even more so.
The OP has been very discreet. Never divulged even a city in which this has allegedly occurred. It seems the OP was troubled because a fellow christian attends said Church and was asking whether people on this board felt is was handled properly.
Again, the OP was discreet. No slander/gossip. The OP felt it needed to be dealt with quickly and decisively, and was wondering if they (OP) was expecting too much. Simple question in this thread.
No need to accuse the OP of gossip. He/She is simply burdened. Are we our brothers keeper? or no? The OP felt certain that what had happened was true, and even stated that some church leaders had confronted the Pastor, so it does sound like there is some truth to it.
OP's final question is whether or not the OP is expecting too much. I say no.
No gossip is going on here.
Maybe a little apathy on the part of some, but I see no gossip.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/19/2009 6:01:45 AM
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Romans16_20
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Thanks for all your input, I really appreciate it. A little more info, the service is carried live over a local radio station, after a week, the video of the service is not up on the Churches web site (as of about 2 minutes ago), it seems no one can find it. It is also videoed for later airing on a couple of the local stations. Its a Baptist church so the denomination (from my understanding) pretty much stays out of local church issues.
If what I am doing here is gossip, I apologize. thats not my intent, thats why I have left the churches name, as well as the pastors name out. I am not trying to manipulate church procedure by remote. I know at the end of the day I don't have a dog in this fight, except about 20 friends who will go through a rough time.
Godsmusic you hit all the nails on the head with your last post. My friend has been a member of this church since she was a child, her parents have been members years before that. She came to me (BTW I am a man, my friend who was there is a lady) before all this and asked me to listen to a couple of his sermons and see what I thought. I gave an honest opinion, hes very dry and the sermon series I listened to was about an inch deep theologically. Then this week we talked, and she was very upset over what happened Easter morning. While she was telling me I asked about if the people I knew who attend there had spoke up when he 'allegedly' said that Jesus didn't die. She said no they hadn't but, she felt, it wouldn't have been anyones place to speak up in a service to correct the pastor. In a situation like this, I do think its ok to correct the pastor because if he did say it, hes not a Christian Preacher.
The Bible talks about Christians "falling away" in the last days and an increase in false teaching so while this may seem to be an isolated incident, there is a very real possibility other preachers could nut up in the pulpit as we get closer.
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With every Mac startup chime an angel to get its wings; Windows gong sends an angel crashes into a tree... Vista sends it into a tree, rolling down a mountain, and headlong into a tractor trailer doing 80!
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/19/2009 8:35:03 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Should something be done if this is true? You bet. If this is true it is no small matter, it is heresy of the rankest sort. But it is up to the church to deal with it. If this sermon was broadcast in any way and the message went beyond the walls of the church then I would have no problem with involvement of some sort. But as long as this was done within a specific church it is that church's right and responsibility to deal with it without outside interference. Depending what denomination the church is, there may be others that come in to investigate or mediate, but anything else would be making an already touchy and painful situation even more so.
The OP has been very discreet. Never divulged even a city in which this has allegedly occurred. It seems the OP was troubled because a fellow christian attends said Church and was asking whether people on this board felt is was handled properly.
Again, the OP was discreet. No slander/gossip. The OP felt it needed to be dealt with quickly and decisively, and was wondering if they (OP) was expecting too much. Simple question in this thread.
No need to accuse the OP of gossip. He/She is simply burdened. Are we our brothers keeper? or no? The OP felt certain that what had happened was true, and even stated that some church leaders had confronted the Pastor, so it does sound like there is some truth to it.
OP's final question is whether or not the OP is expecting too much. I say no.
No gossip is going on here.
Maybe a little apathy on the part of some, but I see no gossip.
Discreetness or truth does not exempt talk from gossip.
The OP said the message was broadcast via radio. There must be some proof. If so, then those that hear may have something to say. To all others it's gossip.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/19/2009 8:48:47 AM
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earthless
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The reason this all changes from just a local church's issue to a wider one is because the OP stated that this individual has books, radio series, etc.. that some of us may have read, may read, may pay heed to, etc..
That is why it is biblical to name names - to warn the brethren, to sound the alarm of the wolf in sheep's clothing.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/19/2009 10:38:55 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The reason this all changes from just a local church's issue to a wider one is because the OP stated that this individual has books, radio series, etc.. that some of us may have read, may read, may pay heed to, etc..
That is why it is biblical to name names - to warn the brethren, to sound the alarm of the wolf in sheep's clothing.
I agree, but that should begin with the church of which he is the pastor, and those that actually heard what was said. If this was broadcast then someone has proof of it, and it can be shown/played for others. Until then, it needs to stay within this church so the facts can be set straight before a couple thousand people start to muddy the water with opinion.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 4/19/2009 10:41:02 AM
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colliefan
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I agree with earthless: if this individual has a pulpit, that is a delivery system beyond the four walls of his church, a warning needs to be broadcast that the individual's teachings could be suspect.
If an examination proves the rumor to be false, there is no problem. But if an examination proves the rumor to be true, another false teacher has been revealed.
I would assume that any soliid teacher/preacher would welcome an exanination of his works. I always give copies of my lessons at womens prison to my church's pastors just be open and honest at what I am teaching.
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RE: When a preacher goes off the deep end in the pulpit... - 
