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RE: What is sin? - 5/12/2009 11:14:29 AM
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bob97
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quote:
Some say we only sin when we physically act on our thoughts, but Christ, the 10 commandments, and Scripture, all make it clear that we sin in our thinking as well as our actions.
Hi bj...
Yes of course the mind is the source of sin...acted out or not it is the wholesomeness of the mind that leads us to being sin free. If we are sinless in our thought we never allow that negative consideration to develop in the first place.
Bob
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RE: What is sin? - 5/12/2009 12:38:53 PM
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DaveW
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There are all kinds of sins. Not all start in the mind. Not all are a proactive choice.
If you do not know what the scripture says to do or not do, and you violate it in ignorance, you still sin even though you may not know you did.
For instance, eating strangled meat is a NT sin. (Acts 15) How many are taught that?
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RE: What is sin? - 5/12/2009 2:37:12 PM
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drmark
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quote:
You can start with Romans 4. Either I am justified in Christ completely, or I am seeking to be justified on my own merits.
As a believer in Christ, I am completely justified in Christ. I've read Romans 4 numerous times, crankius. It says nothing about Christ's righteousness serving as our own. Instead, it says that we are justified by our faith in Christ - huge difference!
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RE: What is sin? - 5/12/2009 2:47:16 PM
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bob97
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What we do not know to be sin cannot be sin to us. For example, I purchase my meat over the counter, how do I know how the animal was killed. But if we know and think it to be sinful then it is.
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14 ( KJV )
Bob
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RE: What is sin? - 5/12/2009 2:49:49 PM
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drmark
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Exactly right, Bob! That would be a sin of ignorance, in my view. No confession or repentance is necessary or even possible given that you did not know you sinned.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/12/2009 9:36:00 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
You can start with Romans 4. Either I am justified in Christ completely, or I am seeking to be justified on my own merits.
As a believer in Christ, I am completely justified in Christ. I've read Romans 4 numerous times, crankius. It says nothing about Christ's righteousness serving as our own. Instead, it says that we are justified by our faith in Christ - huge difference!
I’ll try to explain the imputed righteousness perspective.
2 Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Christ took our sin on the cross, and through faith in His atonement, we gain the righteousness of God in Christ.
Our faith is not a force in itself that justifies us. Our faith is in Christ (His work, His righteousness, His propitiation). In this way, we are justified through the redemption in Christ, not ourselves.
Romans 3:21-24 "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
Read Romans 4 closely, and you will see that Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who have faith, and righteousness is imputed "...apart from works."
As Abraham had righteousness imputed to him because he believed God, we also have righteousness imputed to us who believe God who made propitiation for us through Jesus.
Romans 4:23-25 "Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."
1 Cor 1:30 shows us that God made Christ become our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Our righteousness was filthy rags to God, so God gave us Christ’s righteousness that God might be both the Just and the Justifier.
Romans 5:17-21 explains that just as Adam gave all of us sin, in Christ we are given the gift of righteousness.
Romans 5:17 "For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."
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RE: What is sin? - 5/13/2009 9:18:46 AM
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drmark
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quote:
2 Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Christ took our sin on the cross, and through faith in His atonement, we gain the righteousness of God in Christ. The verse states we "become" the righteousness of Christ!
quote:
Our faith is not a force in itself that justifies us. Our faith is in Christ (His work, His righteousness, His propitiation). In this way, we are justified through the redemption in Christ, not ourselves. I'm not so sure it's that cut and dried in James chapter 2.
quote:
Read Romans 4 closely, and you will see that Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who have faith, and righteousness is imputed "...apart from works."
As Abraham had righteousness imputed to him because he believed God, we also have righteousness imputed to us who believe God who made propitiation for us through Jesus I've never denied this simple fact. Your post from last page implied (to me anyway), that Christ's righteousness serves as our own. Thank you for clarifying your position.
quote:
1 Cor 1:30 shows us that God made Christ become our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Our righteousness was filthy rags to God, so God gave us Christ’s righteousness that God might be both the Just and the Justifier So that we may also become wise, righteous, sanctified, and redeemed, not merely look like those qualities.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/13/2009 11:02:21 AM
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crankius
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I'm not going to debate you point for point on imputed righteousness drmark because that is not the topic of this thread. I briefly explained imputed righteousness because you asked.
I understand you have a different take on it.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/14/2009 8:33:37 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I understand you have a different take on it. Not at all, crankius. I'm merely pointing out that there is no imputed righteousness without imparted righteousness. Any system of soteriology which neglects this simple truth will then have a faulty definition of sin, which is the exact nature of the OP. Thanks for your patience.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/14/2009 1:44:43 PM
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rawr.ben
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Quoting myself from another thread:
quote:
Torah comes from the Hebrew root word that is used as an archery term meaning "to take aim, to shoot," such as shooting an arrow to hit a target. It is derived from the Hebrew verb yarah, "to cast, throw, shoot." The essence of this word then in "to hit the mark." The Torah is God's aim for us.
The opposite of Torah is chata which means "to miss the mark." Chata is the word translated as "sin" in our Bibles. Paul tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the mark. See it?
The Torah is the target for which we aim our arrow. When our shot misses and falls short of the target, we have sinned. Sin is missing the mark of the Torah.
"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness [Torahlessness]; and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4)
With that covered, let's talk about the end of the Torah.
There is a point at which the Torah aims. The bull's-eye of the Torah, the careful aim of Torah (yarah) is the perfect Messiah. This is why Paul wrote in Romans, "Messiah is the end of the law [Torah]." (Romans 10:4)
Unfortunately, traditional Christian interpretation misunderstood Paul's words to mean that Christ is the cancellation of the Torah. The Greek of Romans 10:4 is best understood to mean that Messiah is the "goal" of the Torah. The Greek word telos, which is translated as "end," is the same word we use in English words like telephone, television, and telescope. Telos implies arrival at a goal, such as one's voice reaching the other end of the telephone line. The reading fits the context of Romans 10:4. Messiah is the destination at which the journey of Torah arrives.
Paul also writes in Galations 3:24, "The law [Torah] has become our tutor to lead us to Messiah." In this sense, Messiah is the goal of the Torah. Is Messiah to be understood as ending the Torah then? No. He is the end, but not the ending. He is the goal of the Torah, but not the termination of it. In fact, He Himself said, "Do not think that I have came to abolish the law [Torah]." (Matthew 5:17)
To move in a little deeper, I should point out that there Torah does not equal Old Covenant.
The Torah is covenantal. A covenant is a contract specifying terms and conditions incumbent upon both parties. It is a list of obligations. But more than a simple agreement, a covenant is the definition of a relationship between two parties. Technically, Torah is not one single covenant. it contains several different covenants. Paul refers to the covenants in the Torah as the "covenants of promise." The Torah contains covenants God made with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, with Israel at Mount Sinai, with the house of Aaron and the descendents of Phinehas the priest. It contains covenant Moses made by the Jordan River, and it contains the definition of the "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31. It is not quite correct to think of the Torah as the "old covenant" but rather it is many covenants. On the other hand, it is fair, though not entirely accurate, to think of the laws of Torah as a covenant because of Mount Sinai.
The covenant God made with Israel is legally binding agreement between God and His people Israel.
In 2 Corinthians 3:14, Paul referred to the Torah of Moses as the old covenant as long as it was read without the realization of Messiah. He said that once we are in Messiah, the veil is "removed." The Torah remains, but the veil concealing Messiah within it is removed. Similarly, the book of Hebrews quotes the prophet Jeremiah to prove that in the new covenant, the Torah is written upon our hearts.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws [Torah] into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. (Hebrews 8:10, quoting Jeremiah 31:33)
It is not quite correct to equate the Torah and the old covenant because there is Torah in the new covenant too. Let's set up a proper definition:
- Old Covenant: The attempt to keep the Torah according to the covenant at Sinai without realization of Messiah, resulting in condemnation.
- New Covenant: The writing of the Torah on our hearts through the realization of Messiah, according tot he covenant in Jeremiah 31, resulting in salvation.
This is not to say that the Torah is a means to attain salvation.
Oftentimes, believers avoid Torah because they are afrain of falling into legalism. But obedience is not legalism. If keeping the Torah were necessary for salvation, we would all fail because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The Torah was never meant to be the means by which a person could earn His salvation. Legalism says, "I must obey God in order to be saved." Grace says, "I must obey because I am saved."
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RE: What is sin? - 5/14/2009 5:42:36 PM
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crankius
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Ben,
Thanks for your post.
I had a pastor years ago who explained sin that same way. The phrase "missing the mark" has always stuck in my head.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: What is sin? - 5/16/2009 8:45:31 PM
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Diolectic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Give your best Scriptural definition of sin, and provide the Scriptures to back it up.
All sin is:
Whatever is not of faith (being able to have faith) is sin. Romans 14:23
Knowingly transgressing the law is sin. 1John 3:4
Knowing to do good and not doing it is sin (within context). James 4:17
All (things in the category of) unrighteousness is sin. 1John 5:17
There is another concept of sin which is spoken of as in Romans 7; sin is the unlawful desires which are in the flesh (Romans 7:23,8:3b)
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RE: What is sin? - 5/18/2009 9:19:11 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Diolectic -- not many believe what you have quoted. Why not since it is Scriptural?
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 11:22:54 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
Diolectic -- not many believe what you have quoted.
I don't see a problem with his references, either. They seem to pretty much cover the definition.
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 4:10:33 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Diolectic -- not many believe what you have quoted. Why not since it is Scriptural?
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
Diolectic -- not many believe what you have quoted. I don't see a problem with his references, either. They seem to pretty much cover the definition.
Some believe the verses as they were intended by the Writer; some believe the verses as they they have been interpreted wrongfully.
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 4:32:48 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Some believe the verses as they were intended by the Writer; some believe the verses as they they have been interpreted wrongfully. Could you give us an example of "wrongful interpretation" of 1 John 3:4? It simply states: "in fact, sin is lawlessness". So anyone who breaks the law is sinning - how can that be misinterpreted?
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 4:36:45 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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No, Mark. That discussion belongs in another thread.
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 4:53:55 PM
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drmark
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Then it shouldn't have been brought up here in the first place.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 5:09:08 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Mark, you are something else. Do you write out every detail of everything you are thinking when you answer every simple question on a forum? I answered a simple post. It was YOU who tried to make it into something more than I intended to write here.
You know what I believe already. You have been both openly and tediously critical of my beliefs on Crosswalk, often taking your time to goad me. Does it irritate you that I don't respond in kind to you? -- that I even still like and respect you? Is it difficult for you that you make me smile when you write in this manner? Bless you, Mark, I still pray for your spiritual success when I see your name on CW.
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 5:13:33 PM
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drmark
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Abiyah, I asked a very simple request in response to your post #43. Your response is completely illogical (to me anyway) and now this most recent response is even more baffling! I'm sorry I appear to have offended you - it certainly has never been my intention (that would be deliberate sin, just to remain on-topic!).
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is sin? - 5/19/2009 5:30:52 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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:-)
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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