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Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 9:33:07 AM
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Skippy14
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I was reading the Crosswalk devotional on this site this morning (which I love), and today's scripture excerpt is Proverbs 3:5 - 7. My question is about verse 5, which states that we should "lean not on our own understanding."
What I struggle with is this: does this seem to de-validate the idea of prayer? A prayer comes from us recognizing some sort of injustice or request in our lives. We see someone suffering who doesn't deserve to suffer, so we pray for him / her. We are too overwhelmed with stress or responsibility, so we pray for an easier burden. We know someone who is about to be tested, so we pray for him to have the strength to overcome the test.
But all of these things stem from our own understanding of the state of things, do they not? We like so-and-so enough to pray for him to pass that test, or we feel that this person who suffers is a good person, something we have decided through our own judgment and understanding.
I feel like what this seems to say is that if we can't depend on our own understanding, then we have to believe that everything that happens in the universe, whether bad or good, is totally out of our control, because we don't really understand what's going on, so why are we allowed to pray on people's behalfs, or even our own?
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 10:03:56 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 524
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Skippy14
I feel like what this seems to say is that if we can't depend on our own understanding, then we have to believe that everything that happens in the universe, whether bad or good, is totally out of our control...
...and totally under the control of God.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 10:21:11 AM
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Skippy14
Posts: 15
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Skippy14
I feel like what this seems to say is that if we can't depend on our own understanding, then we have to believe that everything that happens in the universe, whether bad or good, is totally out of our control...
...and totally under the control of God.
Peace
Right, so why do we pray about anything?
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 10:43:47 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 524
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Skippy14
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Skippy14
I feel like what this seems to say is that if we can't depend on our own understanding, then we have to believe that everything that happens in the universe, whether bad or good, is totally out of our control...
...and totally under the control of God.
Peace
Right, so why do we pray about anything?
To know His will.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 11:03:18 AM
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Skippy14
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Joined: 5/17/2007
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The reason I struggle with this is because JUST LAST NIGHT I had discovered something that made a big difference for me, and now this morning I find a verse that seems to contradict what I thought I had learned.
I was studying Exodus 32, where Moses is on Mt. Sinai with God, and the Israelites turned to idols and sinful ways because they felt they had been abandoned with Moses being up there so long. God said he was going to punish the Israelites for their actions, but Moses asked God to change his mind, and indeed He did change His mind. He honored Moses' request, Moses being a human, one of us, someone who supposedly should not "lean on his own understanding".
It was originally God's will to destroy Israel, and a human convinced him to do otherwise. To me, this gives such great validation to prayer, that God seeks relationships with us and wants to know what we are thinking, because he really DOES take action on what we request of him. However, this requires us to have some sort of understanding of our own, and this verse from Proverbs tells us not to. I don't know how to reconcile this.
EDIT: On a side note, I feel some might be threatened by me asking this question. I want you to know that I AM a Christian and am not bringing this up as if to say "look, here's a contradiction, that means that the bible and Christianity is wrong!" I bring this up because I KNOW there is something I am missing. I prefer to hash out my disagreements and wrestle with the things I don't understand in order to grow to a greater understanding of Christian faith, something I try to improve as often as I can.
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 11:45:42 AM
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Skippy14
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Are there more thoughts on this? This has been bugging me all morning.....
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 12:02:15 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1519
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That's not what that verse means.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil." Prov. 3: 5-7
I think you have badly misunderstood the meaning and are perplexed for nothing. These verses should actually encourage a person to pray...there is nothing in these verses to suggest a person should not pray because God does whatever He wants anyway. Further, if that is your own understanding from reading them, I would suggest you do a more comprehensive study on prayer......the Bible has a lot to say about it...you cannot just go on a few verses and and think that you can build a doctrine on them.
First of all, Trust in the Lord with all your heart is just so beautiful...is there anyone on this earth we can trust that much? The most trustworthy person will fail at some point....lean not on your own understanding.....bring everything to God in prayer...that is what that means. In other words, don't make decisions and exclude God....do not think that your wisdom is better than God's......as you can see, if you continue with v. 7, that is made clear by Do not be wise in your own eyes.
There is much much more that can be said regarding these verses...I suggest you do a study yourself and you will find that no where at all in the entire Bible are we ever discouraged from prayer...just the opposite...in fact, Jesus said that we should always pray and not grow faint, or unbelieving if you will.
Hope that helps.
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 12:13:31 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1133
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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Proverbs 3:4-'...[then]you find favor and[show obedience]in the sight of God and of people. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart[to be vulnerable to Him]and do not rely on your own insight[rather then relying on one's limited perspective] 6 [then]you will be able to recognize[my]ways as inferior to His and acknowledge Him that He might make His paths be my paths. 7 Don't be fooled but fear the LORD and turn away from evil 8 [for] that's the path for healing in both your flesh and spirit.'
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 1:59:45 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 524
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Skippy14
The reason I struggle with this is because JUST LAST NIGHT I had discovered something that made a big difference for me, and now this morning I find a verse that seems to contradict what I thought I had learned.
I was studying Exodus 32, where Moses is on Mt. Sinai with God, and the Israelites turned to idols and sinful ways because they felt they had been abandoned with Moses being up there so long. God said he was going to punish the Israelites for their actions, but Moses asked God to change his mind, and indeed He did change His mind. He honored Moses' request, Moses being a human, one of us, someone who supposedly should not "lean on his own understanding".
It was originally God's will to destroy Israel, and a human convinced him to do otherwise. To me, this gives such great validation to prayer, that God seeks relationships with us and wants to know what we are thinking, because he really DOES take action on what we request of him. However, this requires us to have some sort of understanding of our own, and this verse from Proverbs tells us not to. I don't know how to reconcile this.
EDIT: On a side note, I feel some might be threatened by me asking this question. I want you to know that I AM a Christian and am not bringing this up as if to say "look, here's a contradiction, that means that the bible and Christianity is wrong!" I bring this up because I KNOW there is something I am missing. I prefer to hash out my disagreements and wrestle with the things I don't understand in order to grow to a greater understanding of Christian faith, something I try to improve as often as I can.
God is the Initiator, we are the responders...always and at all times. God has a purpose that He is working towards...do you suppose that there is something that He has not considered? Some request or objection from man that surprised Him, or some thing that He did not foresee?
Prayer doesn't change God....prayer changes us. That is why it is important.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 2:24:54 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1133
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: online
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quote:
Prayer doesn't change God....prayer changes us. That is why it is important.
'...The novelty is that prayer changes things. Prayer does not change things; we all know that but rarely admit it. It’s a sweet notion but prayer only changes our focus.
Elisabeth Elliot said, "Sometimes obedience means the willingness to do the useless thing in order that God may do the great thing."
Our prayer is a “useless thing”...'
Perhaps our prayer a “useless thing” but obedience in focus to Him can accomplish whatever He requires of us for His praise and honor.
Romans 9:20-'It’s selfish to assume life experience will proceed in our limited imagination 21 for a creator molds vessels designed for a specific use. 22 Some are designed to show even the Glory of God, some to be used and used up, to illuminate and make His Glory known in endurance with patience in wrath prepared for destruction. 23 He does so and makes the riches of His Glory vessels of His obedience which He prepared in advance for that very purpose. '
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 3:21:09 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1519
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
Prayer doesn't change God....prayer changes us. That is why it is important.
That's right. Prayer does not change God...this prayer changes us is not the whole truth. Prayer absolutely moves the hand of God...God absolutely does respond to our prayers...otherwise, really, why bother.
quote:
Perhaps our prayer a “useless thing” but obedience in focus to Him can accomplish whatever He requires of us for His praise and honor.
Perhaps our prayer is a useless thing? You actually might agree with that?
quote:
'It’s selfish to assume life experience will proceed in our limited imagination 21 for a creator molds vessels designed for a specific use.
And this means what exactly? 'selfish to assume'...how is that selfish...but more, how does this apply to prayer? Sounds like you are not sure prayer is worth the effort as God will do whatever anyway...please correct me if I'm wrong....but if not, then please give the verses from Scripture that tell us that prayer is a waste of time....
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 3:27:59 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1519
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
"look, here's a contradiction, that means that the bible and Christianity is wrong!"
There is no contradiction. Lack of comprehension, yes. Prayer is vital and encouraged by God Himself and He is not playing games with us.
Take Daniel for instance. He is told by the angel that God sent an answer to him (Daniel) right away...but that a satanic messenger stopped the answer. Daniel's prayers played a part in the angel getting through and bringing the answer to Daniel. The Bible does not say specifically how...only, that prayer .... continued, steadfast prayer....on Daniel's part enabled the answer he was seeking from God to reach him.
Nothing about selfishness or God doing whatever He wanted to there.
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 3:29:49 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1519
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quote:
Elisabeth Elliot said, "Sometimes obedience means the willingness to do the useless thing in order that God may do the great thing."
That's nice. Scripture does not teach anything like that that I am aware of.
If God can use what we do, in what way could it be useless? Bible verses to support what Mrs. Elliot says please.
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 3:53:58 PM
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Bluethread
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I do not believe this is talking about mysticism. This is practical advise. We are to trust that Adonai knows best. We may not always see things in the proper prespective. It is difficult to isolate the significant factors. We also may not have access to the significant factors. However, if in all our ways we defer to Adonai, He will keep us on the straight and narrow. We often like to set Adonai's ways aside in favor of the latest trends. Though, in the long run, it is Adonai's ways that prove to be the best for us and society as a whole.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 4:36:08 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 524
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Prayer doesn't change God....prayer changes us. That is why it is important.
That's right. Prayer does not change God...this prayer changes us is not the whole truth. Prayer absolutely moves the hand of God...God absolutely does respond to our prayers...otherwise, really, why bother.
Is it truly your prayer that causes God to move His hand? Do your prayers always move the hand of God?? I seem to remember a thorny issue that Paul prayed about several times?
If He does not always move His hand at your request, is it possible that He has a will of His own? And that His will may be the guiding force and not your prayer?
According to His will...
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 5:07:34 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1519
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
My point was that trusting in the Adonai is not a matter of doing nothing and expecting things to just mystically happen. The reason we pray is because we are told to and we are told to because this is good for us. When we do what is good for us, good things happen.
I am sorry, but I did not find the above evident in your previous post. This, clarifies what you meant further. You did drop the word mysticism out of thin air you know.
quote:
Why so defensive? We is first person plural. Therefore, it includes me. I have found when I heed the popular advise that is contrary to Adonai's ways, it does not turn out well. If you have never done that, then you are truly blessed. However, I personally know of few people who have not had this experience to one degree or another.
Well, you can include you in me, but not me. OK? I said I do not follow 'trends'...and there are plenty of them.
quote:
I also do not see that interpreting "in all your ways acknowledge Him" as give preference to His ways is off the OP.
No, that verse is actually very much in keeping with the OP. Where did I say it wasn't? Perhaps we have a crossed wire on this one?
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 5:30:37 PM
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Skippy14
Posts: 15
Joined: 5/17/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
That's not what that verse means.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil." Prov. 3: 5-7
I think you have badly misunderstood the meaning and are perplexed for nothing. These verses should actually encourage a person to pray...there is nothing in these verses to suggest a person should not pray because God does whatever He wants anyway. Further, if that is your own understanding from reading them, I would suggest you do a more comprehensive study on prayer......the Bible has a lot to say about it...you cannot just go on a few verses and and think that you can build a doctrine on them.
First of all, Trust in the Lord with all your heart is just so beautiful...is there anyone on this earth we can trust that much? The most trustworthy person will fail at some point....lean not on your own understanding.....bring everything to God in prayer...that is what that means. In other words, don't make decisions and exclude God....do not think that your wisdom is better than God's......as you can see, if you continue with v. 7, that is made clear by Do not be wise in your own eyes.
There is much much more that can be said regarding these verses...I suggest you do a study yourself and you will find that no where at all in the entire Bible are we ever discouraged from prayer...just the opposite...in fact, Jesus said that we should always pray and not grow faint, or unbelieving if you will.
Hope that helps.
Yes, that absolutely helps. Thank you so much, for this and everything else you've written in here. I will do more studying on the subject of prayer, as I do believe that man does have the power to "move the hand of God", just as Moses did on Mt. Sinai and on other occasions as well.
Where is this story about Daniel? I'd like to read it.
Thanks again!
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 5:39:02 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1519
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
Yes, that absolutely helps. Thank you so much, for this and everything else you've written in here. I will do more studying on the subject of prayer...I still contend that man does have the power to "move the hand of God", just as Moses did on Mt. Sinai and on other occasions as well.
Where is this story about Daniel? I'd like to read it.
Thanks again!
Daniel chapt 10...you can read it there.
There is also the prophet Elijah....he prayed the rain would stop and it did and he prayed it would start again and it did. Mind you, those prayers were specifically for God to be glorified, but Elijah is mentionned in the NT with regards to this as follows: James 5:17...Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
Now, do you think that would be in there if our prayers meant nothing?
God is faithful!
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RE: Proverbs 3:5 and prayer - 5/11/2009 5:55:54 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2933
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
My point was that trusting in the Adonai is not a matter of doing nothing and expecting things to just mystically happen. The reason we pray is because we are told to and we are told to because this is good for us. When we do what is good for us, good things happen.
I am sorry, but I did not find the above evident in your previous post. This, clarifies what you meant further. You did drop the word mysticism out of thin air you know.
It is a couplet. A common literary tool used in the proverbs. First, present what something is not in order to enphasize what it is in the following line. Maybe I should have made the connection before presenting the couplet, but the fact that it was there for contrast it seemed there was little need for further explanation. Sorry for any confusion.
quote:
quote:
Why so defensive? We is first person plural. Therefore, it includes me. I have found when I heed the popular advise that is contrary to Adonai's ways, it does not turn out well. If you have never done that, then you are truly blessed. However, I personally know of few people who have not had this experience to one degree or another.
Well, you can include you in me, but not me. OK? I said I do not follow 'trends'...and there are plenty of them.
OK, if you say so.
quote:
quote:
I also do not see that interpreting "in all your ways acknowledge Him" as give preference to His ways is off the OP.
No, that verse is actually very much in keeping with the OP. Where did I say it wasn't? Perhaps we have a crossed wire on this one?
That sentence was refering back to the point just prior to this and you did seem to be saying that was off topic. No reason to belabor our misunderstandings. The point is that following Adonai's direction, which prayer is, does not equate to leaning on one's own understanding.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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