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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:23:22 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthlessquote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Without beating around the bush or answering another question, do you believe the Orthodox Church is a cult? Yes or No? Ironically, the only one beating around the bush is you. Yes or No?
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Your assertion that only those in the EO organization are true Christians is an absolute lie. Where did I make this assertion? I said the Orthodox Church is the NT Church; lets' not twist what I said.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:26:01 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Yes or No?
If the EO organization claims anyone that is not a member of their membership records is not a true Christian? Yes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Where did I make this assertion? I said the Orthodox Church is the NT Church; lets' not twist what I said.
Go back just a few posts. I immediately called you out on it. Answer my question above and we will reach a simple conclusion.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:34:56 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Well Walter break out your map; those Chruches fall within the Eastern Orthodox purview. I don't recall denying this. What I said is that the Orthodox Church does not originate from these. It would be like picking the Assemblies of God in Reno, NV to the rest in the State and also the 49 other States. The logic is very weak.
Either way, the Church is not a few individuals or a few Churches; it is the whole Body. It is the Orthodox Church that wrote the NT bible, and it is the Orthodox Church that canonized them. If you have issues with the Orthodox Church, why do you use our bible? And from the Orthodox Church we also have the Nicene Creed, or do you object to this Creed?
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:37:22 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Does not follow, does not operate in what way?
When was the last time all the members of your church sold everything they owned and joined together in one community, so that none were in need?
Does your church meet in homes, as the NT church did?
I would bring up matters of authority structure, but that is up to much debate across the board, so we'll leave that one alone for now.
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:41:59 PM
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earthless
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Walter,
Do you say that a born-again Christian attending a Baptist church in a town outside of Atlanta is a true born-again Christian? A member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ?
Do you say that a born-again Christian attending a Pentecostal church in a burb outside of Chicago is a true born-again Christian? A member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ?
Do you say that a born-again Christian attending a Methodist church in the city of New York is a true born-again Christian? A member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ?
It's a yes or no question.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:43:48 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
If the EO organization claims anyone that is not a member of their membership records is not a true Christian? Yes. You keep adding ifs to skirt the question. Do you believe the Orthodox Church is a cult? Please, no ifs.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Where did I make this assertion? I said the Orthodox Church is the NT Church; lets' not twist what I said. Go back just a few posts. I immediately called you out on it. Answer my question above and we will reach a simple conclusion. I went back and did not find it anywhere; nor did I say anything about tithing member. Where did this come from?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:47:08 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
You keep adding ifs to skirt the question. Do you believe the Orthodox Church is a cult? Please, no ifs.
And you keep avoiding a simple and direct question of mine that will automatically answer your question if you would just answer it.
I asked you again in a more simple manner just a few minutes ago. Answer the question there and then you will have my answer. It's called common-courtesy, I asked you a question and would like it addressed before I am expected to address yours. Plus the kicker is that your question is answered if you would just man up and answer mine.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:49:14 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
When was the last time all the members of your church sold everything they owned and joined together in one community, so that none were in need? Where is this a commandment?
quote:
Does your church meet in homes, as the NT church did? Where is this a commandment? Especially when the Epistles was not necessarily written to the house of so and so, but that of Ephesus, Corinths, Thessalonians, etc...
quote:
I would bring up matters of authority structure, but that is up to much debate across the board, so we'll leave that one alone for now. The Holy Scripture talks about the Bishop, Elders and Deacons. Not sure what other structure you might be referring to.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:51:31 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Where is this a commandment?
Are you saying there was something wrong with the NT church that needed changing?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:54:21 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It's a yes or no question. You're not being fair. Like Jesus did with the Pharisees, neither will I answer your question.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:56:27 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
You're not being fair. Like Jesus did with the Pharisees, neither will I answer your question.
How are simple questions "not being fair"?
I asked you this question from the get and you refuse to be honest about answering it.
Walter, for the sake of an adult discussion, let's try this one more time:
Do you say that a born-again Christian attending a Baptist church in a town outside of Atlanta is a true born-again Christian? A member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ?
Do you say that a born-again Christian attending a Pentecostal church in a burb outside of Chicago is a true born-again Christian? A member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ?
Do you say that a born-again Christian attending a Methodist church in the city of New York is a true born-again Christian? A member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ?
They are yes or no questions and simple enough for a self-proclaiming Christian to answer.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:56:31 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Are you saying there was something wrong with the NT church that needed changing? How can there be a change when there was no commandment to change from?
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:57:23 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
You're not being fair.
How is his question not fair? He's asking if you believe Christians from denominations apart from yours are true born-again Christians, and members of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ?. It seems simple to me. What am I not understanding?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/22/2009 11:58:17 PM
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walterquez
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earthless, you're avoiding a direct question, and then you expect me to answer yours; that's what is not fair.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:00:18 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
How can there be a change when there was no commandment to change from?
But there was a clear example in Scripture on how the church was run. Is that example no longer worth following?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:02:55 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
earthless, you're avoiding a direct question, and then you expect me to answer yours; that's what is not fair.
Sigh.
Let's try this a fourth time, perhaps read my words a bit slower.
Firstly, I asked you a question before you ever did so towards me. Common adult courtesy shows that you, the one I asked the question of, should address it before expecting to dish out questions of your own.
Secondly, my questions are simple, direct, blunt and not unfair by any stretch of the English language.
Lastly, if your answer to my 'yes & no' questions is indeed in the negative (i.e. you say no, they are not true born-again Christians...) then you are not only in biblical error. But then my answer to your question is that whatever organization you claim to adhere to, if they believe as you do about my question, then yes it is a cult no different in error than Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses who claim no one outside of their organization is saved by the blood of Jesus.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:32:15 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But there was a clear example in Scripture on how the church was run. Is that example no longer worth following? I believe this is a stretch. They also didn't have cars. Does this mean we cannot drive them, because they didn't?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:33:56 AM
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earthless
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Walter,
I await your simple yes or no answer to my simple question. Thank you.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:35:04 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But there was a clear example in Scripture on how the church was run. Is that example no longer worth following? I believe this is a stretch. They also didn't have cars. Does this mean we cannot drive them, because they didn't?
Your response to his question is a stretch, making something walk on all fours.
The clear example in Scripture is one that could still be followed today. You're trying to excuse not doing it away by using an example that doesn't fit (cars).
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:38:34 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Firstly, I asked you a question before you ever did so towards me. Your questions are at post 105, mine goes back to at least post 90. If you're not willing to answer then there is no need to continue with these kinds of questions.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:40:23 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Your response to his question is a stretch, making something walk on all fours.
The clear example in Scripture is one that could still be followed today. You're trying to excuse not doing it away by using an example that doesn't fit (cars). Why would the Church be obliged to do something it was not commanded to do?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:45:49 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Your questions are at post 105, mine goes back to at least post 90. If you're not willing to answer then there is no need to continue with these kinds of questions.
All this wasted time and energy. It's disturbing to say the least.
If the EO organization you claim adherence to claims anyone that is not a member of their membership records is not a true Christian? Yes it is a cult on the same level as the Latter Day Saints organization and the Watchtower/Kingdom Hall organization.
So let's clarify all of this so that you cannot claim I am putting words in your mouth. And also so that for the sake of adult/honest discussion all the cards are laid out on table. I will do some hand-holding for all the readers..
You (Walterquez) are stating that a self-professed born-again Christian attending a Baptist church in a town outside of Atlanta is NOT a true born-again Christian. Is NOT a member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ, but dead in their sin and hell-bound.
You (Walterquez) are stating that a self-professed born-again Christian attending a Pentecostal church in a burb outside of Chicago is NOT a true born-again Christian. Is NOT a member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ, but dead in their sin and hell-bound.
You (Walterquez) are stating that a self-professed born-again Christian attending a Methodist church in the city of New York is NOT a true born-again Christian. Is NOT a member of the Christian Church, of the body of Christ, but dead in their sin and hell-bound.
Is that correct?
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:46:36 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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 Now, why did I know you were going to pull James 5:14-16 out...
So, explain to me where it says confess your sins to a priest, father, padre, etc. Verse 15 says, "And the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." Hmmm, no priest mentioned there...although it does speak of the Lord forgiving the sins...perhaps after he has prayed DIRECTLY TO THE LORD..?
Let's move on...verse 16 states, "Confess your faults to one another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed..." Hmmm, well, I don't see where it says 'confess your sins to a priest, a father, a padre, etc' there either. Now, it does state 'faults.' Are you presuming 'faults' are the same as 'sins..?' I don't think so. Confessing our faults to one another would be sharing with others our downfalls, weaknesses and such so that they can pray for us, encourage us, help us to draw closer to the only one who can truly lead and direct and lift us up (that would be the LORD if you were wondering...  ).
No 'hail mary's,' no praying to 'saints' (both of which are DEAD people who cannot help you...hmmm, idol worship..?), just plain ole' going TO THE LORD JESUS THE CHRIST for total forgiveness of sins. That is the reason He came, why do you want to put Him back on the cross..? I just don't get it...and, tell you the truth, maybe I don't want to. Unbiblical legalistic practices steeped in human superstition (tradition)...well, yes, maybe it is a cult...
Matthew
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 12:55:43 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
All this wasted time and energy. It's disturbing to say the least. Yes, it is disturbing, because you cannot find anywhere in this thread where I made such statements.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/23/2009 1:04:33 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Now, why did I know you were going to pull James 5:14-16 out...
So, explain to me where it says confess your sins to a priest, father, padre, etc. Verse 15 says, "And the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." Hmmm, no priest mentioned there...although it does speak of the Lord forgiving the sins...perhaps after he has prayed DIRECTLY TO THE LORD..? If you go back to my response, I said we confess our sins in the Church "to God". And the priest prays "to God" for us. Surely there is nothing wrong with praying to God for someone.
quote:
No 'hail mary's,' Where do you get the hail Mary from?
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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