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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 10/24/2009 5:16:19 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 680
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
I urge you to reread the pa
Yes, while they had every right to keep it they did they wouldn't be accepting the new inheritance. Thanks I'll stick to my pastors reformed more excellent teaching. 
Are you aware that, according to Galatians, the promise--the priveleged inheritance of the sons of Abraham, the adopted sons of God--is the Holy Spirit? It's the very essence of the declaration of righteousness (and all the benefits that go with it) given to us through believing. Why would not selling a piece of land in Israel by a natural Jew be a rejection of the inheritance he can have in Christ Jesus? Your pastor's reformed more excellent teaching is new to me. I'm curious.
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 10/24/2009 5:28:02 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2952
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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Don't you think it's odd that God would strick them dead for lieing? Do you really believe their the only ones who lied at that time? Think about it. It has to mean something deeper than lieing. Other gave their inheritance away? What about when Jesus spoke with the rich man, what did he tell him to do? Give up his inheritance and he chose not to. Same thing here. A & S didn't have the saving faith that the other had and God wouldn't have that impurity in His church.
_____________________________
Deb
I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality .... Acts 10:34
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 10/24/2009 7:11:01 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 680
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Don't you think it's odd that God would strick them dead for lieing?
Yes, it's odd, and out of the ordinary--the fact that God has not judged each one of us accordingly to the lies we've told and has allowed the church to continue to this day is proof of that, lol.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Do you really believe their the only ones who lied at that time?
No.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Think about it. It has to mean something deeper than lieing.
Sorta, but not in the way you're thinking. What it is has to do with is what God felt they were accountable to at that time. Apparently their lying, under these circumstances was inexcusable. If this were not so, each one of us would be struck dead everytime we told a lie. There comes a place and time in a christian's walk when certain sin becomes inexcusable and for which they become more accountable to not commit and are therefore more harshly judged for if/when they commit that sin. For Annaias and Saph. it was the sin of lying under the circumstances spoken about.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Other gave their inheritance away? What about when Jesus spoke with the rich man, what did he tell him to do? Give up his inheritance and he chose not to. Same thing here.
If it was not about lying for A & S as you say, then why was the loaded young ruler allowed to live when he clung to his literal inheritance like A & S did? A & S were judged for lying as a cover for their greed, not clinging to their national inheritance as you suggest. Nothing else. They were completely and totally entitled to sell the land and keep the money. That was not a secret and sinful way of hanging onto the literal inheritance and rejecting their spiritual inheritance in Christ.
Peter plainly says they were completely entitled to do what they wanted with the money they received from the land.
Acts 5
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
A & S didn't have the saving faith that the other had and God wouldn't have that impurity in His church.
I will definately agree it was important for God to protect the church during this early, formative time in her history. A & S were just plain greedy. They were under no obligation or threat of harm to either keep or give away the proceeds of the sale of their part of Israel. And apparently God felt they had gone over the line of his expectations for them personally by lying to Him about how much they got out of it.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 10/24/2009 7:18:05 PM >
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 10/24/2009 8:48:18 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2952
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Chain, we'll just have to agree to disagree .
_____________________________
Deb
I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality .... Acts 10:34
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 10/24/2009 9:54:21 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3040
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
I believe that the hereditary jews have been given custody of the land.
But their new inheritance is Jesus.
The true inheritance was always Adonai's Salvation. Yeshua is a more accurate transliteration of His name, which literally means Adonai's salvation. There are many clauses in HaTorah, eternal salvation is just one of them. Directions on how we are to live in the mean time is another. The Tanach tells us, (Eze 47:21) "So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD." What is meant by, "according to the tribes of Israel" and "among the tribes of Israel", if not the hereditary decendants of Yacov. Also, how can they an inheritance to "the stranger that sojourn", if they do not have physical custody of the land?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/24/2009 10:03:20 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 11/12/2009 12:05:55 AM
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Markie51
Posts: 34
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Dear Wanderinglamb,
The apostle Paul, when using the expression “the Israel of God,” shows that it has nothing to do with whether one is a circumcised descendant of Abraham or not, but refers to spiritual Israel rather than to racial descendants of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. (Genesis 32:28; Galatians 6:15, 16) The Bible speaks of “Israel in a fleshly way” (1Corinthians 10:18), as well as spiritual Israel made up of those for whom descent from Abraham is not a requirement.-Matthew 3:9.
With the passing out of the old, the new covenant was made with those who become spiritual Jews. This meant that not only natural-born Jews, but also non-Jews could be brought into this new covenant arrangement and thus become spiritual Jews. Fleshly descent from Abraham’s loins, consequently, does not reckon one as belonging to Abraham’s “seed”, to whom the promises are made. Not circumcision in the flesh, but circumcision of the heart proves a person to be a true Jew in God’s sight. (Deuternomy 10:16; 30:6; Jeremiah. 4:4) Righteousness was imputed to Abraham before he underwent any surgical operation on his flesh. (Genesis. 17:9-14, 23-27) So also, those that become spiritual Israelites, having the same faith Abraham had, are justified because of such faith. They are then begotten with God’s spirit, and thus become spiritual children, part of God’s new nation, indeed true Judeans, that is, praisers of Jehovah. The name Judah means “praise.”-Genesis. 29:35.
The prophet Hosea foretold that God, in rejecting the nation of natural Israel in favor of this spiritual nation, which includes Gentiles, would say “to those not my people: ‘You are my people.’” (Hosea 2:23; Romans 9:22-26) In due time, the Kingdom of God was taken away from the nation of natural Jews and given to a spiritual nation bringing forth Kingdom fruitage. (Matthew 21:43) To be sure, natural Jews were included in spiritual Israel. The apostles and others who received Holy Spirit at Pentecost in 33 C.E. (about 120), those added on that day (about 3,000), and those that later increased the number to about 5,000 were all Jews and proselytes. (Acts 1:13-15; 2:41; 4:4) But even at that, they were, as Isaiah described them, “a mere remnant” saved out of that cast-off nation.-Isaiah 10:21, 22; Romans 9:27.
Other scriptures elaborate on this matter. With the breaking off of some “natural branches” of the figurative olive tree, there was a grafting in of “wild” non-Israelite ones, so that there was no racial or class distinction among those that “are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” (Romans 11:17-24; Galatians 3:28, 29) “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’” “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.” (Romans 9:6; 2:28, 29) Natural Israel failed to produce the required number, so God “turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name” (Acts 15:14), concerning whom it was said, “You were once not a people, but are now God’s people.” (1Peter 2:10) The apostle Peter quoted what had been said to natural Israel and applied it to this spiritual Israel of God, saying it is in reality “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.”-Exodus 19:5, 6; 1Peter 2:9.
Markie51,
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 11/12/2009 4:40:12 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3040
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Markie51
With the passing out of the old, the new covenant was made with those who become spiritual Jews. This meant that not only natural-born Jews, but also non-Jews could be brought into this new covenant arrangement and thus become spiritual Jews. Fleshly descent from Abraham’s loins, consequently, does not reckon one as belonging to Abraham’s “seed”, to whom the promises are made. Not circumcision in the flesh, but circumcision of the heart proves a person to be a true Jew in God’s sight. (Deuternomy 10:16; 30:6; Jeremiah. 4:4) Righteousness was imputed to Abraham before he underwent any surgical operation on his flesh. (Genesis. 17:9-14, 23-27) So also, those that become spiritual Israelites, having the same faith Abraham had, are justified because of such faith. They are then begotten with God’s spirit, and thus become spiritual children, part of God’s new nation, indeed true Judeans, that is, praisers of Jehovah. The name Judah means “praise.”-Genesis. 29:35.
Emphasis Mine
You seem to differentiate between the people of times of the Tanach(OT) and the people of times of the Apistolic Scriptures(NT). Yet you use references from the Tanach and Avraham as examples of spiritual Israel. If the Tanach speaks of the spritual Israel, then why can't the spriitual Israel and the physical Israel exist at the same time, with the physical one acting as an object lesson with regard to the spiritual one?
quote:
The prophet Hosea foretold that God, in rejecting the nation of natural Israel in favor of this spiritual nation, which includes Gentiles, would say “to those not my people: ‘You are my people.’” (Hosea 2:23; Romans 9:22-26) In due time, the Kingdom of God was taken away from the nation of natural Jews and given to a spiritual nation bringing forth Kingdom fruitage. (Matthew 21:43) To be sure, natural Jews were included in spiritual Israel. The apostles and others who received Holy Spirit at Pentecost in 33 C.E. (about 120), those added on that day (about 3,000), and those that later increased the number to about 5,000 were all Jews and proselytes. (Acts 1:13-15; 2:41; 4:4) But even at that, they were, as Isaiah described them, “a mere remnant” saved out of that cast-off nation.-Isaiah 10:21, 22; Romans 9:27.
Emphasis Mine
I sense a bias that is not clearly stated in the passages you site. I think this comes from the acceptance of the rabbinic belief that natural Israel was spiritual Israel. As you pointed out in your sitations, that was not the case. Israel was to be light unto the gentiles. To the extent that the natural Israel has done that, it was the sprirtual Israel. However, access to the spiritual Israel was never meant to be denighed to anyone who called on the name of Adonai and those who rejected Adonai, even among the Israelites, were denighed the blessings of Adonai.
quote:
Other scriptures elaborate on this matter. With the breaking off of some “natural branches” of the figurative olive tree, there was a grafting in of “wild” non-Israelite ones, so that there was no racial or class distinction among those that “are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” (Romans 11:17-24; Galatians 3:28, 29) “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’” “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.” (Romans 9:6; 2:28, 29) Natural Israel failed to produce the required number, so God “turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name” (Acts 15:14), concerning whom it was said, “You were once not a people, but are now God’s people.” (1Peter 2:10) The apostle Peter quoted what had been said to natural Israel and applied it to this spiritual Israel of God, saying it is in reality “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.”-Exodus 19:5, 6; 1Peter 2:9.
Yes, the dried up dead branches were removed and the wild branches were grafted in, but the tree was not uprooted. Physical Israel has always been a flawed object lesson of sheep and goats, and spiritual Israel has always been made up of Adonai's people, regardless of their heredity.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/12/2009 4:47:57 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 11/12/2009 6:24:08 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1904
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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I think I have stated this before but the descendants of Isaac are God chosen people and will be saved along with all others who confess Jesus Christ as the Son of God and believe in His resurrection to life. They are a part of the elect of God whose names were written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world. If I have stated this before it deserves to be repeated. 
In Messiah,
Bob
< Message edited by bob97 -- 11/12/2009 6:30:10 PM >
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Who does the NT say Israel is? - 12/2/2009 3:29:25 PM
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mslv4gd
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/15/2005
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People often get mixed up on this.
Christians who say that they are Israel must want to be legalist.
The binding of Israel is the LAW of Moses.
Paul describes the Jews as those connected by the Law.Rom 2:17-18
Paul said the promises of the old Cavenat were for them and even the gospel was first for them.Rom9:1-4, 2:9-10
Being under the reign of Grace I don not need the Old Covenant. Rom 5:20-21, 7:1-5
Why would Jews and Gentiles be unified. If we just needed to be spiritual jews?
When Paul was talking about true Jews and true Israel, he was talking about devout verses non-devout Jews.
In Christ,
Matt
www.biblesmack.net
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