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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 12:42:49 AM
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agapist
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First, to my dear brother whether he believes it or not manimalx. You claim I am ignoring you--and you are right. You have made it quite--abundantly--clear that you have no rerspect for my views or for me as a person. To you, as you have stated, I am totally duplicitous--so why ask me questions? And following up on that point, why should I bother answering? And yes, that does not hurt my feelings. Which i suppose you think that makes me defective.
"Born again" 1John3:3...which means being "born from above." Heaven is the country of the Christian. Then read Galatians 3:29 and Hebrews 11:13-16.
Patriotism being the love of one's country and zeal for its interests is, for the Christian, an allegiance to heaven, to the rule of God. The spirit of this particular love can be nothing other than the Holy Spirit and not nationalism or party loyalty.
The Holy spirit creating the new creature and the new life is the source as well of our patriotism for God's kingdom. Please read 2Cor10:4-5 and Eph6:13-18. This is what it means to be a patriot of God's kingdom.
Here is an example of this country's criteria for becoming a citizen: "...took the oath to support the Constitution of the United States, and that he then did absolutely and forever renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to every foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whatsoever..." America insists on our sole allegiance. It views multitasking, loving and having zeal for the interest of other countries, as treason.
As Christians, we have a "prince" (Christ) that demands our total loyalty. As Christians, we have a potentate (Heaven) that demands our full zeal.
We are aliens in America or in any other government.
We are "citizens of heaven" and "ambassadors of God." How can sole allegiance to him and my "country" of heaven hurt the state or my neighbor? I, as a Christain, am to represent His interest and only obey his will. I stand for, as a Christian, his rule over ALL creation and His love for ALL humanity.
If I stand firmly in His truth and His love, in my sole allegiance to his kingdom, is there any way I can do an injustice to the government or my neighbor?
Preferring to stand in His truth alone, I will naturally conform and submit to the governing authorities, as He advised...unless it violates good conscience. One ruler, one law, one government: God's. How can any of us go wrong with that stance?
The only possible disappointment or harm I can do my government or my neighbor with this one allegiance to the kingdom of God is to stand against any interest counter to God's. I will be hated for this, as was Jesus. The citizens of any earthly government expect a love and zeal for that contry's interest, what will secure its preservation and prosperity. We have seen that even those under an oppressive and evil regime will love their country.
Can you see anything wrong with having a sole allegiance to the kingdom of God? With such an allegiance, isn't what is ultimately best for our government, family, friends, and neighbors more than adequately served?
If a Christian can in good conscience ("good conscience" meaning guided by the Holy Spirit or it could not be called "good") become a soldier for a nation and go to war, wouldn't it be best if he recognized that it is not for or out of zeal for an earthly government, no matter how obvious its cause of justice, but for the kingdom of God alone? Wouldn't it be best that he came to realize it was only the kingdom of God he served?
Any earthly government, which includes our own, is nothing more than we are: just an instrument of God's will. It is for His intrests and goals alone that we live...or die.
Should we love the instrument or the intelligence, justice, mercy, hand, and ends of the one using it? Is it the sword or the heart that wields it we love?
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 2:46:07 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
First, to my dear brother whether he believes it or not manimalx. You claim I am ignoring you--and you are right. You have made it quite--abundantly--clear that you have no rerspect for my views or for me as a person.
We are both blood bought saint of the Living God. Of course you are my brother. Please don't mistake my disagreement with your VIEWS as disdain for your PERSON. You can take my word for it or not, but I am definitely able to separate a person from their various philosophies and ideas 
quote:
To you, as you have stated, I am totally duplicitous--so why ask me questions? And following up on that point, why should I bother answering? And yes, that does not hurt my feelings. Which i suppose you think that makes me defective.
duplicitous: Given to or marked by deliberate deceptiveness in behavior or speech.
I don't think that of you at all. I think you hold and a certain philosophy which you promote as biblical when it is in fact not. That doesn't make you "deceitful" or a "liar", it just makes you mistaken! And, last I checked, being wrong about something doesn't make one "defective", it makes one normal.
Here is a sampling from the rest of your post:
quote:
Here is an example of this country's criteria for becoming a citizen: "...took the oath to support the Constitution of the United States, and that he then did absolutely and forever renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to every foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whatsoever..." America insists on our sole allegiance. It views multitasking, loving and having zeal for the interest of other countries, as treason.
As Christians, we have a "prince" (Christ) that demands our total loyalty. As Christians, we have a potentate (Heaven) that demands our full zeal.
We are aliens in America or in any other government.
We are "citizens of heaven" and "ambassadors of God." How can sole allegiance to him and my "country" of heaven hurt the state or my neighbor? I, as a Christain, am to represent His interest and only obey his will. I stand for, as a Christian, his rule over ALL creation and His love for ALL humanity.
Your mistake is STILL that you see it as an "either/or" option. In other words, you assert that being a "citizen of heaven" is mutually exclusive to supporting one's Earthly nation.
In many cases, this is the case. However, God's agenda and a government's agenda can overlap.
Consider Acts 17:38, "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place"
Then consider all of the other passages of Scripture that instruct Christians to be a blessing to the cities and nations they live in, to be honorable citizens, to obey one's government as far as that government isn't forcing one to sin, to pray for the leadership of one's government, etc.
It follows that there is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting and encouraging one's government when one's government is acting in a godly manner. It also follows that there is nothing wrong with being honored and excited to be a part of that. That is patriotism. Saying, "I am proud of the nation God planted me in when that nation is acting godly".
Christianity and patriotism are not mutually exclusive.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 3:22:07 AM
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Psalm30
Posts: 30
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From: northern california
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no sin for lovin the USA!! GOD BLESS AMERICA, land that I LOVE :)
_____________________________
UCDavis 05
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 3:32:46 AM
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agapist
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manimalx, I clearly stated this is how I see things, what works for me personally. I clearly stated that there is sufficient scriptural evidence for a more moderate view than mine. For you to insist that I make "the mistake" of an either/or view does not bear up under what I have said.
You said you can separate a person from their views: please re-read your posts and what you have said about me personally, such as my "usual modus operandi (duplicity)."
Everything I presented in my last post supports what you said in yours. How could we not be a blessing to cities being totally devoted, as I put forth, to God?
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 6:47:38 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1895
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From: my mom by God
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agapist....can you explain the difference between nationalism and patriotism?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 7:10:42 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
manimalx, I clearly stated this is how I see things, what works for me personally. I clearly stated that there is sufficient scriptural evidence for a more moderate view than mine. For you to insist that I make "the mistake" of an either/or view does not bear up under what I have said.
You said you can separate a person from their views: please re-read your posts and what you have said about me personally, such as my "usual modus operandi (duplicity)."
Everything I presented in my last post supports what you said in yours. How could we not be a blessing to cities being totally devoted, as I put forth, to God?
So, the fact that I am a patriotic American ISN'T sin? IOW, your view is that patriotism is not necessarily sinful?
If that is your position, then we are in harmony.
EDIT to add: The fact that I can identify your modus operandi (the way in which you usually do things) has nothing to do with being "duplicitous" (deceitful on purpose).
I think you are WRONG, not a LIAR. To be a liar you would have to have a knowledge of the truth and then purposely present the opposite as true. That isn't hwat you are doing. Stop playing the martyr! Nobody hates you! You don't have to go eat worms! I love you, which is why I spend time communicating with you!
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 11/6/2009 7:20:59 AM >
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 8:39:02 AM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapeflight
The highest love we can have for our country is to preach the gospel to it.
Actually this is not entirely correct. John 15:13 says "Greater love hath no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
That is what has taken place for years in this country.
Vietnam - over 58,000 laid down their life's for the people of South Vietnam.
I can provide the stats for the other wars the USA has been involved in if you like.
I can find no where in history where the USA was involved in a war that profited the USA. Every time it was in the defense of some group of people that was being abused and mistreated. Our country has not grown one bit from the accumulation of wealthor property from war.
Agapist I agree with Manimalx. I understand the point you are making I just do not agree with that point. I will also defend your right to have and express your own opinion just the same as I will those of opposing opinions.
I am a born again believer. I have a mansion made ready for me in Glory. However, I have yet to finish the job God has for me here on earth and take up residence in that mansion. So I own property in Heaven but I have never lived there and do not live there now. Until then I will support my country becuase IMHO after having lived in several other countries, it is still the best place to live.
Veteran's Day is approaching. I ask that we all put this aside for a few minutes on the 11th to say a prayer for those military men and women still serving, to honor those that have served, and to remember those that gave their life in the service of this country.
God bless you
And
God Bless the USA.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 1:19:29 PM
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agapist
Posts: 657
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manimalx, I suppose I should be grateful that you promoted me from "asinine" to merely "wrong." Thank you.
If I overlook calling me a "god-hating atheist skeptic" and your claim I tell "lies from the pit" and that my "pacifism is without morals" and that I "play" at being a martyr, which means my apology was insincere, a ploy I commonly use (modus operandi) to cover up for being soundly refuted, I can feel the love you claim.
God bless our troops. Happy Veterans Day.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 1:39:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Vietnam - over 58,000 laid down their life's for the people of South Vietnam.
I can provide the stats for the other wars the USA has been involved in if you like.
I can find no where in history where the USA was involved in a war that profited the USA. Every time it was in the defense of some group of people that was being abused and mistreated. Our country has not grown one bit from the accumulation of wealthor property from war.
Vietnam was far more about taking a stand against communism in the area than some crusade to rescue a people... When it was no longer in our best interest we pull the plug and the people of South Vietnam were left to defend themselves...
We only came to the defense of Kuwait because it was in our best interest... Not because we care about the people of Kuwait... Too many defenseless folks have perished in places like Rwanda without little or no regard for the anyone to believe we operate solely on the concept of defending abused and mistreated people... Our national interest is first and foremost....
The first war this country fought was in part over wealth...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 9:52:13 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1817
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quote:
Veteran's Day is approaching. I ask that we all put this aside for a few minutes on the 11th to say a prayer for those military men and women still serving, to honor those that have served, and to remember those that gave their life in the service of this country.
Great idea! Yes, let's remember our servicemen and women who faithfully serve!
But I don't think we need to put this (discussion) aside. This thread is representative of our country's greatness IMO. Diverse views can be discussed freely. I thank the Lord for this freedom we enjoy. But I also thank all the men and women who have contributed to the freedoms we enjoy in the U.S.A. Freedom came to us through Jesus at a great price---His life. All freedom has a price.
And I thank the Lord for the freedom I (we) enjoy in this country!
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/6/2009 11:20:50 PM
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dbark
Posts: 407
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From: Canada
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Vietnam - over 58,000 laid down their life's for the people of South Vietnam.
I can provide the stats for the other wars the USA has been involved in if you like.
I can find no where in history where the USA was involved in a war that profited the USA. Every time it was in the defense of some group of people that was being abused and mistreated. Our country has not grown one bit from the accumulation of wealthor property from war.
That really depends on how you define "profit". Most of the conflicts the U.S. has engaged in (same as other countries, not just the U.S.), has been to defend their interests. It's not surprising that a country would defend it's interests, but don't get too emotional holding up an altruistic ideal that supposedly represents the U.S. foreign policy - most of the time this is not the case.
The fact that the government has always been willing to sacrifice it's sons and daughters to pursue it's interests is also no evidence of righteousness. This is not a slam (in any way) against those who serve their country, but just to make the observation that sacrifices are not always made for the right reasons. Did the 58000 who died in Vietnam really die for the Vietnamese people or was it because the U.S. feared another communist stronghold in Asia? The soldiers themselves may have died for altruistic reasons, but the government's motivations were political and not borne out of their deep love for their Vietnamese neighbours.
< Message edited by dbark -- 11/6/2009 11:39:17 PM >
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/7/2009 1:32:45 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
manimalx, I suppose I should be grateful that you promoted me from "asinine" to merely "wrong." Thank you.
If I overlook calling me a "god-hating atheist skeptic" and your claim I tell "lies from the pit" and that my "pacifism is without morals" and that I "play" at being a martyr, which means my apology was insincere, a ploy I commonly use (modus operandi) to cover up for being soundly refuted, I can feel the love you claim.
God bless our troops. Happy Veterans Day.
I see you have an inability to separate comments about a position, idea, or philosophy from comments about your person.
My goal was to get you to take your idea of pacifism as a universal Christian mandate to its logical ends, to get you to see that such a claim is illogical and unsound when examined in light of Scripture. That position forces you to have to bend Scripture in order make claims about the character of God that aren't supported otherwise. That is ALWAYS the case when we try to make the Bible teach our own personal agendas.
As you haven't ONCE addressed any of my main points or answered my simple questions despite my repetition, I have no choice but to stop addressing you until you do so. I hope you choose to go back and answer some of my very valid questions or main arguments instead of continuing your non-required journey down Pity Boulevard.
Good day.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/7/2009 8:03:31 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1895
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From: my mom by God
Status: online
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A patriot will as often be against what his country does as for it.
A nationalist will only see his country as good.
I think agapist is a closet patriot, but definitly not a nationalist.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/7/2009 3:59:25 PM
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agapist
Posts: 657
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manimalx, I quote scripture and you say you have proven that scripture wrong. It is written, "Love does NO HARM to its neighbor." Romans13:10.
Your argument is with Paul, not me.
God uses all of what's wrong with this fallen world for his ends, which does not mean that war is His ideal of settling disputes or what He would have us do as part of faith. Do you favor pestilence? With love, of course?
Over and over I have answered your question--I just did not give an answer you liked or, perhaps, inderstood.
You say I put God in a box my "insisting" my nonviolence stance is for all Christians--I have never done that. Over and over and over I have merely stated my position.
If you read any reasonable apologetics on that topic, there is adequate support for my position, and room for those who choose differently and "fight for justice" on behest of established authorities. It is you, by your constant insistence I am wrong for my stance, that put God in the box of your beliefs.
I haven't really ignored you; you have simply not heard what I was saying. Your insistence on taking pacifism (your term) to its logical end is that it has no logical end; it has an end completely reliant on the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit. No logical scenario can include what is possible in Christ.
And the fact you do not know when you are being insulting is disappointing. Such comments as you made are unnecessary. I do not spit on your beliefs or you. However, it would be wrong of me to expect the same respect. So, insult away, my friend, I will stop "playing the martyr" and no longer take exception to your style of communication.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/7/2009 4:41:35 PM
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agapist
Posts: 657
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Whatever one chooses to do or think regarding a Christian's duty "to fight for his country," he must be led by the Holy Spirit. Of all areas in life that we should seek God's leading, it must be whether we should join an organization led by unregenrate mene that would require us to kill others. To enter into killing others on the basis of trust of men in government is to play loosely with our freedom in Christ.
When we become impassioned over the world's conflicts to the point where we are willing to kill others or to die merely upon the orders of government, we have lost sight of our Lord's calling upon our lives. And, more importantly, we've lost sight of His ability to control the destinies of nations without our involvement or interference.
In the face of the world's conflicts, we rightly discern that the destruction wreaked by a tyrant is evil; but we fail to perceive that the destruction may be God's will in order to work out His sovereign purposes. We do not fully understand God's plan in worldly conflicts. In some cases, He may want a tyrant to succeed. And we may find ourselves fighting against God's purposes.
To our reasonable and logical thought processes (which is not, by the way, the mind of Christ), this sounds wrong. Yet let us remember how God destroyed nations for benefit of Israel, then destroyed Israel for its failure to live in obedience to Him. Let us consider also His stern warning to Israel to submit to Nebuchadnezzar, the pagan king of Babylon. "Would God do such a thing, command His people into the captivity of paganism?"
God has sovereignty in the affairs of nations; failure to recognize this leads ot many "well-intentioned" errors.
In our finite do-good minds we might think confronting a tyrant with military force is acting with just cause--even with God's blessing. (The taste of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is so sweet. Have a bite.)
It seems so crystal clear to our limited reasoning. It seems "pure" to defend a country's way of life or to preserve it's so-called God-given liberties.
Yet true patriotism is love of people--love for all humanity--and not governmental systems. Democratic, dictatorship, Communist, monarchy or whatever, governments exist for their own benefit. This world system is inder the direction of Satan. Governments do not look out for the welfare of people; that is the job of Christians.
Love for people compels us to minister God's grace--to the world! There is one side in this: truth, Jesus Christ.
We are to first die to self before we go and kill for the government. Yet I feel once we have done that, once we have completely abandoned ourselves to His will, once we have realized "total forgetfulness of self," we will embrace family, neighbor, and enemy with equal love.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/7/2009 4:59:40 PM
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agapist
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I have observed a blind eye in many posts regarding the history of our country. I do not want to tear down America; people take that as a comment of the personal intentions of those who died in wars. Soldiers are usually highly honorabale men.
As most veterans here know (and, btw, I am one of those from Nam), in battle we fight to survive ourselves, so we can return to our families and with the idea we are somehow guaranteeing their survival, and for the others in the unit. We sacrifice and die not for the government but for the guy next to us. Many a soldier lost their life to save a guy they did not even like. It is the life of a soldier. Loyalty.
But America is not that honorable. Its history is highly checkered. Yet just like family, we can take its faults and look to care for it anyway. Turning it into an ideal challenges our faith.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/7/2009 9:10:03 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1895
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Perception is 99% of reality.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/7/2009 10:19:39 PM
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agapist
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And, soninme1? What does that mean?
Is this a relativistic philosophy you are espousing? What each person sees is reality, minus 1%?
Are you saying that perfect discernment from the Holy Spirit is impossible?
Are you saying all mankind is condemned to a personal view only on life and no chance of seeing clearly, no chance of apprehending truth but only what they perceive of as truth?
Is this perception of reality-viewing always at 99% for everyone? Are the mentally ill and mentally challenged guaranteed 99% of reality under this adage of yours?
Did you mean to put quotes around the word "reality" to indicate that we "see" by our past experiences, beliefs, and desires what we want to see?
You need to expound, soninme1, what you said is 99% unclear.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/9/2009 12:01:16 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1895
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: online
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It means...with your perception of how evil america is, it is no doubt why you are not nationalistic.
KNOWING, what you do of this country would suggest some effort so its not that you don't care about this country...so I propose youa re a patriot asnd not a nationalist.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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