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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/3/2009 6:26:55 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Last I checked, everyone still dies Everyone since Enoch and Elijah... What do you think was different about them, WL, since they sinned just like us?
Okay, you got me. There have been a few exceptions!
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/3/2009 6:29:44 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
quote:
So, one must believe in hell to be saved? Can't one just recognize that compared to Adonai Yeshua our works are fithy rags?
If one believes in heaven, then one must believe there is a hell.
What would you equate the Wrath of God to mean? If there is no fear of the Lord, why believe?
If there is no hell for one to believe in, why is it talked about in the Word?
There are many who do not believe in a literal place where men will be punished for all eternity. There is a rather long thread on that subject. Those who do not believe in hell, would say that an eternity with Adonai is sufficient for them to believe in The Promise. Are you saying that those people are not saved?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/3/2009 8:10:16 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1779
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quote:
Are you saying that those people are not saved?
NO!
I'm saying it doesn't make sense to me.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/4/2009 6:53:43 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1779
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SIH: Don't take my word for it......
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same {yourself,} that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
The temporal and eternal do not nullify each other. It's the exact opposite-you can't have one without it affecting the other.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 1:00:30 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
SIH: Don't take my word for it......
I don't.... Nor do I accept your view of scripture...
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same {yourself,} that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
The temporal and eternal do not nullify each other. It's the exact opposite-you can't have one without it affecting the other.
Temporal judgement, even up to death wasn't done away with at the cross... The he theif who was justly put to death for his deed and yet was as well granted eternal life by Christ says you are wrong... You said Christ did away with people having to pay with their life(temporally), and you have not supported that statement and others like it...
And if folks have to truly answer for the deeds heaven will be empty...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 11/6/2009 1:06:46 AM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 1:54:26 AM
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agapist
Posts: 657
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sovereignishe, i believe you think you are rebutting what DD said, but none of your comments thus far have come even close to responding to her points. In point of fact, a few of them you presented as rebuttal served more as support.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 10:59:49 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
sovereignishe, i believe you think you are rebutting what DD said, but none of your comments thus far have come even close to responding to her points. In point of fact, a few of them you presented as rebuttal served more as support.
Yes, because Christ did away with the punishment of death at the cross... Because He said that very thing... Christ NEVER said such a thing.... No wait, DD did... Just like your love the sinner, hate the sin comment which like DD's view, is not found anywhere in the bible... The Doctrine of Clichés...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 3:06:25 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
sovereignishe, i believe you think you are rebutting what DD said, but none of your comments thus far have come even close to responding to her points. In point of fact, a few of them you presented as rebuttal served more as support.
Good point. Also let's not forget the fact that everyone still has to die.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 3:13:08 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
[Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. ...10...love is the fulfillment of the law.
No one has said a word about this, so it bears repeating.
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 11/6/2009 3:19:30 PM >
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 4:47:17 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2719
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
[Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. ...10...love is the fulfillment of the law.
No one has said a word about this, so it bears repeating.
What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make with it?
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rawr.ben
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 4:52:16 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1779
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
[Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. ...10...love is the fulfillment of the law.
No one has said a word about this, so it bears repeating.
WL, nobody said anything, probably because there is no point of contention and no one has misused that particular verse (which is a good thing!  )
The problem we run into in a thread like this is people have favorite scriptures that support their view. Looking at the whole of scripture ruins favorite views, so people don't like to do that. they would rather argue than let the Holy Spirit guide them into truth and understanding. We all do it, depending on what the topic is. Hopefully we can each get to a place where we get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit teach us what He wants us to know!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 7:07:33 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
[Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. ...10...love is the fulfillment of the law.
No one has said a word about this, so it bears repeating.
WL, nobody said anything, probably because there is no point of contention and no one has misused that particular verse (which is a good thing! )
The problem we run into in a thread like this is people have favorite scriptures that support their view. Looking at the whole of scripture ruins favorite views, so people don't like to do that. they would rather argue than let the Holy Spirit guide them into truth and understanding. We all do it, depending on what the topic is. Hopefully we can each get to a place where we get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit teach us what He wants us to know!
Right, I see a lot of arguing going on in this thread. My hope was that Scripture would shed light on the discussion. "CommonSense" came along with a question which I suspect was meant to stir things up, and it looks like he has succeeded in that.
I am not trying to use Scripture to support my particular view. I am still exploring how I view this issue. I just hope we can go to the source of light and direction to help resolve conflicting views. I thought it would be helpful to post a Scripture passage that may point us in the right direction.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/6/2009 7:55:20 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
I guess my thing with the Roman's verses, is that it looks totally different when you read the proceeding chapters and the chapters that follow. I personally get a very different picture in light of the "whole". Does that make sense?
Can you elaborate on this please? I would like to know what you are talking about. Thanks
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/7/2009 6:01:04 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1779
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
I guess my thing with the Roman's verses, is that it looks totally different when you read the proceeding chapters and the chapters that follow. I personally get a very different picture in light of the "whole". Does that make sense?
Can you elaborate on this please? I would like to know what you are talking about. Thanks
will try my best to explain it. I am not always eloquent in my speech. 
To view Rom 13 as far as subjection to government, is limited, it is a narrow view denying the whole of scripture.
We must consider the previous chapter and the the chapter following chapter, if we really want to digest what Paul is telling us.
Most people get hung up on a few verses in Rom 13 and base their beliefs regarding the death penalty and other "laws" on a few of these verses.
Let's look at vs 3: " For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same."
Rulers in the vs refers to Rom 1:5-Jesus Christ as the Ruler.
Why? the answer is found in Rom 14;12- "So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
Rom 13:4: " for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil be afraid: for it does not bear the sword for nothing: for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."
Is this saying the government is the avenger? Nope- let's refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:6 to see who the avenger is.
"{and} that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is {the} avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned {you.} "
Paul is telling us to what is right in the eyes of the Law. What laws are being referred to? See vs 9 in chap 13.
In Chap 14, he moves on to begin scolding us for judging others-why? Because people are investing too much time in trying to adhere to the law and judge others by a law they do not understand. See vs 13.
I have done the best I could while trying to keep this post at a reasonable length. I hope I have clarified where I was confusing before.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/7/2009 6:31:21 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
I guess my thing with the Roman's verses, is that it looks totally different when you read the proceeding chapters and the chapters that follow. I personally get a very different picture in light of the "whole". Does that make sense?
Can you elaborate on this please? I would like to know what you are talking about. Thanks
will try my best to explain it. I am not always eloquent in my speech.
To view Rom 13 as far as subjection to government, is limited, it is a narrow view denying the whole of scripture.
We must consider the previous chapter and the the chapter following chapter, if we really want to digest what Paul is telling us.
Most people get hung up on a few verses in Rom 13 and base their beliefs regarding the death penalty and other "laws" on a few of these verses.
Let's look at vs 3: " For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same."
Rulers in the vs refers to Rom 1:5-Jesus Christ as the Ruler.
Why? the answer is found in Rom 14;12- "So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
Rom 13:4: " for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil be afraid: for it does not bear the sword for nothing: for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."
Is this saying the government is the avenger? Nope- let's refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:6 to see who the avenger is.
"{and} that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is {the} avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned {you.} "
Paul is telling us to what is right in the eyes of the Law. What laws are being referred to? See vs 9 in chap 13.
In Chap 14, he moves on to begin scolding us for judging others-why? Because people are investing too much time in trying to adhere to the law and judge others by a law they do not understand. See vs 13.
I have done the best I could while trying to keep this post at a reasonable length. I hope I have clarified where I was confusing before.
I'm sorry but that still doesn't make sense to me. Paul was clearly talking about human government. He mentions paying taxes in verse 7. Are you saying that these verses refer to Jesus or the church? We don't pay taxes to Jesus or the church.
quote:
Romans 13
1.Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2.Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3.For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4.For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5.Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6.This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7.Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
The fact that 1 Thess 4 mentions God avenging for men's sins does not mean that Romans 13 cannot be referring to the government.
To me it is very plain that Paul is talking here about the secular human government. I don't see any reason to see it in any way except the plain meaning. But that doesn't mean that verse three can't also be referring to Jesus because He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and the government will be upon His shoulders. And that's not to say that the governing authorities always uphold righteous law and never opress people. Obviously they can and they do.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/7/2009 9:04:33 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1779
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
Romans 13
1.Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2.Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3.For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4.For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5.Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6.This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7.Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
The fact that 1 Thess 4 mentions God avenging for men's sins does not mean that Romans 13 cannot be referring to the government.
To me it is very plain that Paul is talking here about the secular human government. I don't see any reason to see it in any way except the plain meaning. But that doesn't mean that verse three can't also be referring to Jesus because He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and the government will be upon His shoulders. And that's not to say that the governing authorities always uphold righteous law and never opress people. Obviously they can and they do.
Vs 1-4 are talking about Jesus.
5-7 are explaining that there are authorities established by God under the leadership of Jesus. He is also explaining that these are the right things to do and that by doing them, we are fulfilling the Law.
Check out the postscripts as you are reading through the verses. One of them refers to king, but when you look it up, it literally means Caesar himself. (that one is often used out of context).
The 1 Thess verse defines avenger based on the postscript. I didn't make it up, I promise.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/8/2009 2:58:17 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
Vs 1-4 are talking about Jesus.
5-7 are explaining that there are authorities established by God under the leadership of Jesus. He is also explaining that these are the right things to do and that by doing them, we are fulfilling the Law.
Check out the postscripts as you are reading through the verses. One of them refers to king, but when you look it up, it literally means Caesar himself. (that one is often used out of context).
The 1 Thess verse defines avenger based on the postscript. I didn't make it up, I promise.
By post script, I guess you mean footnotes and cross references? Are you refering to this:
quote:
1 Peter 2
Submission to Rulers and Masters
13.Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,
14.or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.
15.For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
16.Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
17.Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
18.Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
19.For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
20.But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
This is referring to authority "instituted among men". It says to "show proper respect to everyone" listing three categories: 1. the brotherhood of believers, 2. God, and 3. the king. It also tells slaves to submit to their masters. Clearly that is talking about men. It even refers to unjust suffering from masters. This can't be just referring to Jesus and the church as authorities.
Do you not believe that we are to obey our human government, as long as we can do so and be obedient to God?
Are you saying that Jesus is the agent of wrath to bring punishment, so that government is not supposed to do that anymore? No one should be punished by human government for their crimes? Just wait until the day of Judgement? So when people steal, kill and destroy, we are supposed to just pray that Jesus will avenge and expect the governing authorities to do nothing?
The 1 Thess. verse is a cross reference. Does that mean that Romans 13:4 can't be referring to human govt?
I still don't think I quite get what you're saying. Maybe I'll have to think about it some more.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/8/2009 6:10:52 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1779
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
This is referring to authority "instituted among men". It says to "show proper respect to everyone" listing three categories: 1. the brotherhood of believers, 2. God, and 3. the king. It also tells slaves to submit to their masters. Clearly that is talking about men. It even refers to unjust suffering from masters. This can't be just referring to Jesus and the church as authorities.
Well, I didn't refer to 1 Peter at all. But, I will certainly check them out!
ok, I see where you are getting 1 Peter. Yes, that is the vs that means Caesar when it says king!
quote:
Do you not believe that we are to obey our human government, as long as we can do so and be obedient to God?
I do to a point. They scripture that says we are to obey God and not man, supersedes any other scripture regarding human authority, to me.
quote:
Are you saying that Jesus is the agent of wrath to bring punishment, so that government is not supposed to do that anymore?
No, Jesus isn't the avenger, God is.
quote:
No one should be punished by human government for their crimes? Just wait until the day of Judgement? So when people steal, kill and destroy, we are supposed to just pray that Jesus will avenge and expect the governing authorities to do nothing?
No. I'm saying that we do not have the authority to kill. Consequences will naturally come from our actions-be them good or bad.
We have guidelines set before us to help us along our way. We have consequences for certain actions laid out. The bible is quite clear that if we do this...this ______is what will happen.
We rely on ourselves to institute justice and to right wrongs. God tells us that vengence is His. We are to trust that. Look what He did all those years for Israel. He did exert vengeance for them many times. Yet, they kept turning their back on Him. We are no different today. The same issues exist-we want what we want, and we want it now.
Our trust in God is limited to what we can see Him do. If He doesn't move fast enough or lets us wallow in our pain too long, we jump ship and rely on ourselves to fix the problem.
Discipline must occur. God is of order-so we must have order, but you know what, our system of justice is very chaotic and not really all that just! Is it better than some? Not sure about that. Many other nations have a much lower crime rate than ours. Why? They have instituted swift penalties and eliminated the option of rescuing people from their crimes. The penalties are much harsher than ours and then they have to live the rest of their lives with the consequences, ever reminding them of their offense.
quote:
Does that mean that Romans 13:4 can't be referring to human govt?
I do not believe that it is referring to human government.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/8/2009 11:32:51 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
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ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
[Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. ...10...love is the fulfillment of the law.
No one has said a word about this, so it bears repeating.
WL, nobody said anything, probably because there is no point of contention and no one has misused that particular verse (which is a good thing! )
The problem we run into in a thread like this is people have favorite scriptures that support their view. Looking at the whole of scripture ruins favorite views, so people don't like to do that. they would rather argue than let the Holy Spirit guide them into truth and understanding. We all do it, depending on what the topic is. Hopefully we can each get to a place where we get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit teach us what He wants us to know!
Ok... So what does the SWORD represent in the verse? A time out in the corner?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/8/2009 11:38:39 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
Let's look at vs 3: " For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same."
Rulers in the vs refers to Rom 1:5-Jesus Christ as the Ruler.
Why? the answer is found in Rom 14;12- "So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
Huh? The verses is speaking to earthly rulers.... Their authority stems from in God... Christ told Pilate this...
quote:
Rom 13:4: " for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil be afraid: for it does not bear the sword for nothing: for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."
Is this saying the government is the avenger? Nope- let's refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:6 to see who the avenger is.
er... God is using that which He ordained, the civil government as His minister on His vengeance...
You can't replace verses with OTHER verses...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/8/2009 11:47:08 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
I do to a point. They scripture that says we are to obey God and not man, supersedes any other scripture regarding human authority, to me.
The bible says we are to obey God before man.... In that what God commands supersedes what man commands... Yet if there is no conflict one is bound, by God's word to obey man as if God commanded the very thing... Human authority is granted authority by God...
quote:
No, Jesus isn't the avenger, God is.
Interesting to say the least...
quote:
No. I'm saying that we do not have the authority to kill. Consequences will naturally come from our actions-be them good or bad.
We have guidelines set before us to help us along our way. We have consequences for certain actions laid out. The bible is quite clear that if we do this...this ______is what will happen.
We rely on ourselves to institute justice and to right wrongs. God tells us that vengence is His. We are to trust that. Look what He did all those years for Israel. He did exert vengeance for them many times. Yet, they kept turning their back on Him. We are no different today. The same issues exist-we want what we want, and we want it now.
Our trust in God is limited to what we can see Him do. If He doesn't move fast enough or lets us wallow in our pain too long, we jump ship and rely on ourselves to fix the problem.
Discipline must occur. God is of order-so we must have order, but you know what, our system of justice is very chaotic and not really all that just! Is it better than some? Not sure about that. Many other nations have a much lower crime rate than ours. Why? They have instituted swift penalties and eliminated the option of rescuing people from their crimes. The penalties are much harsher than ours and then they have to live the rest of their lives with the consequences, ever reminding them of their offense.
Justice isn't vengeance... How can you say, "Discipline must occur...", when you smear punishment as vengeance?
quote:
I do not believe that it is referring to human government.
Wow.... Beyond words...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 11/8/2009 12:56:47 PM
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fallenstar
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline
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I think that stoning is a disgusting, uncivilized act of ignorance. I would be ashamed to live in a country that allowed that kind of primitive behavior. We have risen above that to be able to think and reason, to have intellignet minds and use them.
I am not saying I don't believe in punishement, I do, but I favor rehabilitation instead. We need to help everyone, even the people you may think don't deserve it.
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