RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of the Peace?
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/7/2009 5:36:33 AM
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agapetos
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No. There have probably been sheep in the field (on and off through the year) for several hundred years, so they were there first.
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Maggie
September 09
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/7/2009 9:11:49 AM
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kohls356
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I think ringing the church bells on Sunday is fine. It wouldn't matter to me if they changed it to every hour I wouldn't want to hear them. Although over time one would get used to them and notice I would imagine, but I don't see what the point is to ring them every hour during the week. Like what was said they used to be rang to let people know it was time to go to church. People aren't going to church every hour of every day and I imagine most people own a clock and know what time it is.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/7/2009 9:42:23 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3106
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: coolfamily6
Church bells are very different than a recording of church bells. Canned music is no where near as nice as the real thing.
Most carillons these days are recordings.
quote:
A decibel reading was taken at the property line and it was 67db. The traffic noise on the road was louder than the bells.
That may be, but the SPL reading never tells the whole story. Was that A-weighted or C-weighted? Slow or fast response? Traffic noise has a very broad spectrum with fairly smooth/even dynamics (i.e. no sharp attack), which makes it easy for the brain to tune out. Bells are just the opposite: they have a very strong attack and are heavy on the mid-range frequencies which makes them stand out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jdshingl
You do realize that 67 db is in the range of a normal conversation?
Since there is no set standard for what constituted a noise violation the ordinance is so vague that any sound that you make that I don't like is in violation of the law, The ordinance is in violation of the first amendment. Now if there wasn't an exemption for ice cream trucks and if there was a set standard to follow then we would have followed that.
As an audio engineer, I'll be the first to agree that a lot of town noise ordinances are vague, ill-conceived, poorly written, and inconsistently enforced. Maybe your bells aren't very loud - maybe the volume is perfectly reasonable.
I will also say that foam is not sound-proofing. Foam is used to tame reflections inside a venue, to cut down on the reverberations and help improve intelligibility. Foam is not effective at keeping sound from getting in or out. True soundproofing requires construction. Re-aiming the speakers could help, but how much depends on the specs of the particular speaker. I'd guess it was only a few dB at most.
More broadly, as a church, what is your goal in having these bells? Rather than trying to have your way and complaining about the letter of the law, wouldn't it be better to try to work within the spirit of the law? The spirit of the law is to keep people from annoying each other. Obviously your neighbors wanted no bells at all. Wouldn't it have been better to suck it up and stop the bells?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/7/2009 6:12:31 PM
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ThursdaysChild
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
Every 1/2 hour is a bit much.
Even mosques going off isn't as annoying as every half hour. I'd much rather hear church bells (enjoy them here, in fact) but every half hour? Ay chihuahua!
_____________________________
"…you often hear pastors preach, 'You are saved if you believe.' What they should be saying is, 'You are saved so that you might believe."[ C.F.W. Walther
Thursday's Musings
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/7/2009 11:40:50 PM
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quietpeace
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In a 1999 U.S. Census report, Americans named noise as the number one problem in Neighborhoods: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/ahs/ahs99/tab28.html
A Voice to End the Government's Silence on Noise; Arline L. Bronzaft, Ph.D. Hearing Rehabilitation Quarterly; VOLUME 23, NUMBER 1, 1998: http://www.lhh.org/noise/archives/23-1/voice.html
Arline L. Bronzaft is a Professor Emerita at Lehman College, City University of New York and serves as a member of the Council on the Environment of New York (non-paid volunteer, appointed by Mayor Bloomberg as well as the three previous Mayors). Dr. Bronzaft does research, writes, lectures, and advises anti-noise groups, in the U.S. and abroad, on the hazards of noise to health and well-being.
In the past, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) coordinated all federal noise control activities through its Office of Noise Abatement and Control (ONAC). From 1972 to 1981 ONAC aided states in developing effective noise control programs, provided funds for noise research, and produced public educational materials on the harmful effects of noise and ways to control it. In 1981, as ONAC was preparing to establish noise standards for transportation sources, its funding was abruptly cut off. Federal oversight of transportation noise is now filled by agencies whose core mandates are often at odds with quiet communities. Dr. Bronzaft points out that “By relying on methods that underestimate the numbers of people affected by airport-related noises and dismissing the growing evidence that aviation noise is harmful to health, quality of life and children’s development, United States aviation transportation policies largely ignore the impacts of airport-related noises on residents.” The bottom line is that current U.S. noise policy regulates peoples’ lives, and the sanctity of their homes on behalf of irresponsible industries—citizens subsidize these moneyed corporations in the currency of diminished quality of life
The Noise Control Act and the Quiet Communities Act were not rescinded by Congress and remain in effect today, although essentially unfunded. Succeeding administrations Democrat and Republican have failed to restore funding. I hope President Obama will make good again the federal government’s promise to “promote an environment for all Americans free from noise that jeopardizes health or welfare” by executive order.
United States aviation transportation policies ignore the hazards of airport-related noise Arline Bronzaft, Ph.D.; World Transport Policy & Practice, Volume 9, Number 1, (2003) 37–40 http://www.areco.org/US%20denies%20noise%20harm.pdf
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 4:08:57 AM
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jdshingl
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Should the church ignore the 100's in the neighbor hood that wrote to the church saying they love the bells and give in to the 4 who don't like the bells? The problem with most christians today is that they won't stand up and fight for their rights and meekly let others walk all over them. I personally am sick and tired of so called Christians telling me that I need to back down when someone is attacking the Church or my religion I will never back down when defending my God or my Country.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 4:47:13 AM
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Kath
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jdshingl
Should the church ignore the 100's in the neighbor hood that wrote to the church saying they love the bells and give in to the 4 who don't like the bells? The problem with most christians today is that they won't stand up and fight for their rights and meekly let others walk all over them. I personally am sick and tired of so called Christians telling me that I need to back down when someone is attacking the Church or my religion I will never back down when defending my God or my Country.
You really look at this as an attack on your faith?
quote:
"To me, it is one of the ways that we express praise and worship to God. And it is also one of the ways that God speaks out and says to the community that there is somebody here that cares," said Bishop Rick Painter, rector of the Cathedral of Christ the King, a local Charismatic church affiliated with the Anglican Church in North America.
I find it curious that on one hand he says he cares, but on the other doesn't seem to care that the neighbors do not want this.
quote:
He argues that the noise ordinance is unconstitutionally stifling the church's freedom of religion.
I wonder how so?
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 4:59:30 AM
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quietpeace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
ORIGINAL: jdshingl
Should the church ignore the 100's in the neighbor hood that wrote to the church saying they love the bells and give in to the 4 who don't like the bells? The problem with most christians today is that they won't stand up and fight for their rights and meekly let others walk all over them. I personally am sick and tired of so called Christians telling me that I need to back down when someone is attacking the Church or my religion I will never back down when defending my God or my Country.
You really look at this as an attack on your faith?
quote:
"To me, it is one of the ways that we express praise and worship to God. And it is also one of the ways that God speaks out and says to the community that there is somebody here that cares," said Bishop Rick Painter, rector of the Cathedral of Christ the King, a local Charismatic church affiliated with the Anglican Church in North America.
I find it curious that on one hand he says he cares, but on the other doesn't seem to care that the neighbors do not want this.
quote:
He argues that the noise ordinance is unconstitutionally stifling the church's freedom of religion.
I wonder how so?
I encourage anyone who cares about Freedom & Liberty, about their neighbors, their community & their Christian Testimony, to read this article. Link to entire article provided:
Noise, Sovereignty, and Civility. By Les Blomberg Hearing Rehabilitation Quarterly - Volume 25, Number 1 (2000)
Noise is unwanted sound. It causes hearing loss, stress, high blood pressure, sleep loss, lost productivity, and a general reduction in the quality of life and opportunity for personal and collective tranquility. Noise is caused by people and businesses claiming rights, usually property rights, to emit noise into the air, and by people who do not possess the civility to be good neighbors. While its effects are an environmental health issue, its causes are tied to the issues of sovereignty (who owns the air?) and civility (how should we treat our neighbors?).
Entire article is at:
http://www.chchearing.org/noise-center-home/noise-archives/noise-sovereignty-and-civility
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 5:02:48 AM
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quietpeace
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For those of you who care about Children:
Vital information about the effects of noise on your child's health, hearing and development. Learn what you can do to minimize the noise your child is exposed to at home and in the classroom.
http://www.chchearing.org/noise-center-home/children-and-noise
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 7:01:03 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3106
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quietpeace
Noise is unwanted sound. It causes hearing loss
67dB at the property line isn't going to cause hearing loss.
quote:
For those of you who care about Children:
Vital information about the effects of noise on your child's health, hearing and development. Learn what you can do to minimize the noise your child is exposed to at home and in the classroom.
http://www.chchearing.org/noise-center-home/children-and-noise
I clicked the first link on that page, "Noise and Children's Hearing" and found this:
quote:
The National Hearing Conservation Association reported that in a survey of 110 children, ages 6 to 14, the average noise level during the day was 90 decibels, about the level of city traffic. On the playground, these levels reached 115 decibels, similar to that of a noisy subway or rock music.
B-A-L-O-N-E-Y
I didn't get an 8-hr average over 90dB when I was working rock concerts; no way on earth is a kid going to get that. I could see a playground momentarily peaking at 115 if someone's yelling right at you from a foot away, but there's no was that's an average. At 115, you and I would have to shout in others' ears in order to have a conversation. Sure, the band kids mentioned on that page have hearing problems - they have horns blasting in their ears all the time, but to portray them as the norm is disingenuous. I have a dips in my left ear around 3-4KHz and 8KHz not because I work(ed) with loud music, but because I drive with the window open.
I'm all for people protecting their hearing and for sensible regulations to protect people, but we don't have to make stuff up to make the case.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 7:27:52 AM
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quietpeace
Posts: 126
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: quietpeace
Noise is unwanted sound. It causes hearing loss
67dB at the property line isn't going to cause hearing loss.
quote:
For those of you who care about Children:
Vital information about the effects of noise on your child's health, hearing and development. Learn what you can do to minimize the noise your child is exposed to at home and in the classroom.
http://www.chchearing.org/noise-center-home/children-and-noise
I clicked the first link on that page, "Noise and Children's Hearing" and found this:
quote:
The National Hearing Conservation Association reported that in a survey of 110 children, ages 6 to 14, the average noise level during the day was 90 decibels, about the level of city traffic. On the playground, these levels reached 115 decibels, similar to that of a noisy subway or rock music.
B-A-L-O-N-E-Y
I didn't get an 8-hr average over 90dB when I was working rock concerts; no way on earth is a kid going to get that. I could see a playground momentarily peaking at 115 if someone's yelling right at you from a foot away, but there's no was that's an average. At 115, you and I would have to shout in others' ears in order to have a conversation. Sure, the band kids mentioned on that page have hearing problems - they have horns blasting in their ears all the time, but to portray them as the norm is disingenuous. I have a dips in my left ear around 3-4KHz and 8KHz not because I work(ed) with loud music, but because I drive with the window open.
I'm all for people protecting their hearing and for sensible regulations to protect people, but we don't have to make stuff up to make the case.
-Dan.
Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar:
You are jumping to conclusions. Noise does cause hearing loss, but that is beside the point. Why do you stop at hearing loss and do not consider the impact of unwanted sound on: “stress, high blood pressure, sleep loss, lost productivity, and a general reduction in the quality of life and opportunity for personal and collective tranquility?” I think, perhaps, I might have touched on a topic that is dear to you in terms of livelihood or professional craft. I do not mean to frighten you in that way.
I take you for a man of good will and understanding. Educate yourself on the effects of noise on human beings:
Noise Pollution: A Modern Plague: Lisa Goines, RN and Louis Hagler, MD. Southern Medical Journal, Volume 100: March 2007, pages 287-294. http://www.nonoise.org/library/smj/smj.htm
Former U.S. Surgeon General William H. Stewart said in 1978, “Calling noise a nuisance is like calling smog an inconvenience. Noise must be considered a hazard to the health of people everywhere.”
Abstract
Noise is defined as unwanted sound. Environmental noise consists of all the unwanted sounds in our communities except that which originates in the workplace. Environmental noise pollution, a form of air pollution, is a threat to health and well-being. It is more severe and widespread than ever before, and it will continue to increase in magnitude and severity because of population growth, urbanization, and the associated growth in the use of increasingly powerful, varied, and highly mobile sources of noise. It will also continue to grow because of sustained growth in highway, rail, and air traffic, which remain major sources of environmental noise. The potential health effects of noise pollution are numerous, pervasive, persistent, and medically and socially significant. Noise produces direct and cumulative adverse effects that impair health and that degrade residential, social, working, and learning environments with corresponding real (economic) and intangible (well-being) losses. It interferes with sleep, concentration, communication, and recreation. The aim of enlightened governmental controls should be to protect citizens from the adverse effects of airborne pollution, including those produced by noise. People have the right to choose the nature of their acoustical environment; it should not be imposed by others.
Hell: The Effects of Living in a Noisy World; Chepesiuk, R (2005) Environmental Health Perspectives (PDF) http://www.noiseoff.org/media/ehp.113.pa34.pdf
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 8:07:40 AM
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Consecrated2God
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I guess if there was something biblical about bell ringing I could see the point, but it's a man-made tradition. There's so many things that are much more important that are worth fighting for. It's not a hill I think anyone should die on.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 4:35:26 PM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jdshingl
The problem with most christians today is that they won't stand up and fight for their rights and meekly let others walk all over them. I personally am sick and tired of so called Christians telling me that I need to back down when someone is attacking the Church or my religion
Granstanding doesn't really help.
1) People are complaining about a chuch, not THE church.
2) Most who commented are Christians, so it would be odd, if they attacked the religion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jdshingl
I will never back down when defending my God or my Country.
Neither was under attack.
You do realise, that if your church can use the religious freedom to do this, then the pagans in the vicinity can play their "blowing the horns", the mosques can respond with calls to prayer and the atheists can play recordings of Dawkins at all hours.
Everybody loose.
WormHeart
EDITED to fix stupid typo.
< Message edited by WormHeart -- 11/8/2009 4:41:52 PM >
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Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 5:14:36 PM
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stellaluna
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Huh...this makes me curious about the church I used to live near. Its bells rang out once for every hour on the hour, and then one ring at the half hour. But I know for a fact that the bells didn't ring at night. I'm thinking they probably rang between 8:00 am and 8:00 pm.
It seems to me this church and its neighbors could find a way to compromise.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/8/2009 7:31:08 PM
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JustaFan
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There is a church right around the corner from me that has bells that ring on the hour. I enjoy them, that is when I even notice them.
If these neighbors would relax, and untwist their knickers they wouldn't even notice the bells after a bit. I can't help wondering if there is some other reason they are hostile to this church.
On the other hand, some make a good point that annoying the neighbors is not a good way to reach out to the community.
Perhaps a community meeting should be arranged where those neighbors who dislike the bells, and those neighbors who like the bells could meet with the church members to iron out a comprimise.
_____________________________
Judith
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/9/2009 2:27:44 AM
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jdshingl
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The story on abc was mis leading the bells only rang every half hour between 7am and 9 pm the first 2 days, after that it was 1 time an hour from 8am to 8pm the bells rang the hours and at noon a short hymn. It was 30 seconds each hour except noon it was 1 min and 30 seconds, the total time rang for the whole day was less than 8 min.The Church tried to compromise with the neighbors but the were not willing to compromise and walked out of the meeting and stated they want abolutely no bells. What they said to the press is total bull.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/9/2009 3:11:54 AM
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tacitus
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I told you before, you poisoned the well by doing it every half-hour without proper consideration and consultation with the neighbors. (Posting fliers is not a proper consultation.)
Too right those affected didn't want to compromise. If I had a neighbor who suddenly bought a dog that barked twice an hour for 12 hours a day, then the last thing I would agree to is a compromised where he only let the dog out into the yard for only 6 hours a day to bark just as much. Same with bells, music, calls to prayer, or any other disturbance that wasn't there *at* *all* before.
As for your earlier comment. Nobody is attacking "the Church" or even "a church". They are objecting to noise being introduced on the hour every hour every day for the rest of their lives. If you can't see that as a reasonable objection then I don't know what else to say.
What sort of message is your church sending to these people who are objecting if you tell them to suck it up and stop complaining? Methinks you doth protest too much.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/9/2009 7:37:00 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3106
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jdshingl
The story on abc was mis leading the bells only rang every half hour between 7am and 9 pm the first 2 days, after that it was 1 time an hour from 8am to 8pm the bells rang the hours and at noon a short hymn. It was 30 seconds each hour except noon it was 1 min and 30 seconds, the total time rang for the whole day was less than 8 min.The Church tried to compromise with the neighbors but the were not willing to compromise and walked out of the meeting and stated they want abolutely no bells. What they said to the press is total bull.
Is it 30 seconds of music + chimes for the hour or does the 30 seconds include chimes for the hour?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/9/2009 7:37:01 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaFan
Perhaps a community meeting should be arranged where those neighbors who dislike the bells, and those neighbors who like the bells could meet with the church members to iron out a compromise.
Since the pastor is now suing the City of Phoenix for violating his civil rights and religious discrimination, I don't see a community meeting between the neighbors and the church happening any time in the near future.
That's true. They are making it into a battle and complaining that people are attacking them. I think this could have been solved easily if diplomacy were introduced before they drew battle lines.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/9/2009 10:53:09 AM
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agapetos
Posts: 9866
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From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jdshingl
The story on abc was mis leading the bells only rang every half hour between 7am and 9 pm the first 2 days, after that it was 1 time an hour from 8am to 8pm the bells rang the hours and at noon a short hymn. It was 30 seconds each hour except noon it was 1 min and 30 seconds, the total time rang for the whole day was less than 8 min.The Church tried to compromise with the neighbors but the were not willing to compromise and walked out of the meeting and stated they want abolutely no bells. What they said to the press is total bull.
I used to start work at 5am. I was frequently trying to get to sleep before 9pm. I suspect I'm not alone in that. Having church bells ring every half hour (or even hourly) in such a way would not sit well with me. Nor would I appreciate being woken up by church bells on my day off.
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
My blog
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/10/2009 4:35:23 AM
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jdshingl
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Its 30 seconds for the hours at the top of each hour at noon it 1 min and 30 seconds for the hymn + the hour
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/10/2009 8:25:15 AM
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Sayen
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I used to live in Tempe, which is just south of Phoenix and really part of the same city. The church across the street from us started the same thing. The bells used to only play hourly in the evenings, then suddenly with more volume and every half hour starting early in the day. Forget the fact that I worked nights and tried to sleep in during the morning, the attitude of the church was arrogant and rude. Many people in the surrounding communities complained, and it became a legal issue until the church was forced to stop the bells entirely. They were not pleasant musical tones from a cast bell, it was an obnoxious and intrusive recording.
When the bells were finally stopped, all the church accomplished was making themselves look bad and hurting the image of Christians. The bells didn't serve as a witnessing tool, and they certainly didn't inspire God's love. Ordinances and such aside, the church showed a lack of consideration and courtesy for the neighborhoods.
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RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/10/2009 5:24:40 PM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sayen
When the bells were finally stopped, all the church accomplished was making themselves look bad and hurting the image of Christians. The bells didn't serve as a witnessing tool, and they certainly didn't inspire God's love. Ordinances and such aside, the church showed a lack of consideration and courtesy for the neighborhoods.
I'd call that losing more than they ever hope to gain. It is not necessary for any church to have bells in this day and age. And a church is there to serve the community, not the other way around.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"Freedom comes with an educated mind." - Jacqueline Rushing
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MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT 
PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS! 
This is turning into the war of the bells. 
"And those carillons keep tolling along...." [Sung to the melody "The Cassion Song"]