Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Bible



Message

Bluethread -> Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 11:47:13 AM)

It has been suggested that not understanding the significance of the rending of the veil is an extreme detriment to the life of the believer. If we accept that to be the case, it is important that this understanding be defined and clearly communicated. Paul speaks to this in Hebrews chapter 9. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the role of The Temple in Adonai's eternal plan and the siginificance of the rent veil.

Heb. 9:1 "Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order. 11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"



Eutychus -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 11:52:06 AM)

The rent veil suggests to me that we are no longer separated from God's presence by elaborate ceremonies and an exclusive human priesthood but that we now have direct access to the Father through Jesus, our High Priest, and His righteousness applied to us.



rcjames -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 12:53:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

The rent veil suggests to me that we are no longer separated from God's presence by elaborate ceremonies and an exclusive human priesthood but that we now have direct access to the Father through Jesus, our High Priest, and His righteousness applied to us.



[sm=thumbsup.gif]

Thanks
RC



stampinlady -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 1:05:14 PM)

[sm=thumbsup.gif][sm=thumbsup.gif] Me too. Can you imagine what it must have been like if you were in the Temple at that moment. Wow.



LCannon -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 1:21:00 PM)

Someone has suggested among the issues raised here another was to reveal the ark of the Covenant was no longer present thus the source forgiveness and true sacrifice. Jesus was(is)the True sacrifice and Victory.



Liveloved -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 1:26:29 PM)

Thanks, Bluethread, for this most needful thread.

One of the most meaningful verses of scripture in my personal walk with the Lord comes from Exodus 25. There God is instructing in the building of the tabernacle and these are God's words to Moses on the place of meeting between God and man.

And there I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel. Ex 25:22

Above the mercy seat, between the cherubim, is the meeting place between God and man. . . Jesus is the mercy seat and this is the place where we meet with God and hear His whispers of mercy.

The veil has been rent through Christ's sacrifice for us and by His righteousness we are able to meet with God. This is the place of intimate fellowship where He speaks to us personally, one on one.

Oh, how very important this is to know. This is the place where oneness takes place, our sin swallowed up in His mercy. The heart of God longs for this kind of fellowship with His beloved children.

Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:19-25



Bluethread -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 3:13:43 PM)

So, do I hear people saying that everyone has access to th Holy of Holies, even those who hate Adonai?



Corne -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 4:24:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

So, do I hear people saying that everyone has access to th Holy of Holies, even those who hate Adonai?

That's not what I hear at all. What gave you that impression?



Bluethread -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 4:27:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

So, do I hear people saying that everyone has access to th Holy of Holies, even those who hate Adonai?

That's not what I hear at all. What gave you that impression?


There has not been a differentiation.



Corne -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 4:30:16 PM)

reread.



ChainSaw -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 4:35:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon

Someone has suggested among the issues raised here another was to reveal the ark of the Covenant was no longer present thus the source forgiveness and true sacrifice. Jesus was(is)the True sacrifice and Victory.

Jesus is the Ark of the Covenant, and as Livedloved points out, is where man and God meet in Holy peace and reconciliation. As the priesthood of a New Covenant, we carry Jesus, the Ark of the Covenant, around in the Temple of our bodies during this wilderness journey on earth until the day we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling. Until then, as appointed stewards of the Temple of God, we are careful to keep it pure and undefiled so that the glory of God within it can appear for all to see.



ChainSaw -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 4:39:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

So, do I hear people saying that everyone has access to th Holy of Holies, even those who hate Adonai?

According to the law, you have to be clean, and you have to be born in the line of the High Priest. Both requirements are satisfied for all who believe. Those who believe are the only one's who are qualified to approach God and not die.



Bluethread -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 4:44:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainSaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon

Someone has suggested among the issues raised here another was to reveal the ark of the Covenant was no longer present thus the source forgiveness and true sacrifice. Jesus was(is)the True sacrifice and Victory.

Jesus is the Ark of the Covenant, and as Livedloved points out, is where man and God meet in Holy peace and reconciliation. As the priesthood of a New Covenant, we carry Jesus, the Ark of the Covenant, around in the Temple of our bodies during this wilderness journey on earth until the day we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling. Until then, as appointed stewards of the Temple of God, we are careful to keep it pure and undefiled so that the glory of God within it can appear for all to see.


Where do you get that extrapolation? Scriptures please. It does have a nice ring to it, but how do you know it is an accurate portrail of what Adonai intended with regard to the Temple and the Ark.



Bluethread -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 4:53:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainSaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

So, do I hear people saying that everyone has access to th Holy of Holies, even those who hate Adonai?

According to the law, you have to be clean, and you have to be born in the line of the High Priest. Both requirements are satisfied for all who believe. Those who believe are the only one's who are qualified to approach God and not die.


So, you are saying we are all the high priests? Isn't that Yeshua's job? With regard to the Scriptural requirement for Cohen HaGadol, this is not a herditary designation. Yes, on earth, one must be of the line of Aharon, but one need not be a direct decendant of the last Cohen HaGadol.



Eutychus -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 5:00:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

So, do I hear people saying that everyone has access to th Holy of Holies, even those who hate Adonai?

That's not what I hear at all. What gave you that impression?


There has not been a differentiation.

I qualified my first post with, "through Jesus, our High Priest, and His righteousness applied to us." One must be born again and made righteous in Jesus Christ to have access. Nobody else can enter into the Holy of Holies, the presence of God.



Bluethread -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 6:12:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

There has not been a differentiation.

I qualified my first post with, "through Jesus, our High Priest, and His righteousness applied to us." One must be born again and made righteous in Jesus Christ to have access. Nobody else can enter into the Holy of Holies, the presence of God.


Good, it is important to get this clearly stated. There are some who obfiscate so they can maintain their positions should things not appear to be going as they wish.

So, there is a barrier of sorts between those who hate or who are indifferent to Adonai and those who acknowledge Adonai. What about those who believe in Adonai, but are not annointed with the blood of the lamb? Do they also have access to the Holy of Holies? Also do you acknowledge there is a significant difference between the first group and the second group?



Liveloved -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 6:58:23 PM)

quote:

Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:19-25


Bluethread, I quoted this scripture from Hebrews 10 because it made clear that we have the confidence to enter God's presence through the blood of Jesus, through the veil, hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and bodies washed with pure water.

This scripture makes clear that it is the blood of the Lamb, Jesus, applied to our hearts that gives us access to the Holy of Holies. This is the only group that will be found in Him.



Bluethread -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 7:35:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:19-25


Bluethread, I quoted this scripture from Hebrews 10 because it made clear that we have the confidence to enter God's presence through the blood of Jesus, through the veil, hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and bodies washed with pure water.

This scripture makes clear that it is the blood of the Lamb, Jesus, applied to our hearts that gives us access to the Holy of Holies. This is the only group that will be found in Him.


Good, let me recap. Humanity can basically be divided into three groups. First, there are those who hate or are indifferent to Adonai and those have no hope of entering into Adonai's presence, in their present state. Second, there are those recognize Adonai, but do not know how to properly approach Him. Finally, there are those who are properly prepared by the blood of the lamb and the instructions of Adonai to approach Adonai Yeshua, who is our High Priest.

Have I gotten this correct?



Corne -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 8:08:03 PM)

There are two groups. Believers saved by grace through the blood of Jesus. And those that are not. God is able to divide the unbelieving group into those that will eventually, and those that will never. But we don't have that knowledge.



teacher1982 -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 8:28:22 PM)

quote:

The rent veil suggests to me that we are no longer separated from God's presence by elaborate ceremonies and an exclusive human priesthood but that we now have direct access to the Father through Jesus, our High Priest, and His righteousness applied to us.


This thought is one of the greatest blessings in the Bible. To think that we ourselves can communicate directly with Jesus, and He is our advocate with God the Father!

What an amazing thing!



Liveloved -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/3/2009 10:53:54 PM)

quote:

Good, let me recap. Humanity can basically be divided into three groups. First, there are those who hate or are indifferent to Adonai and those have no hope of entering into Adonai's presence, in their present state. Second, there are those recognize Adonai, but do not know how to properly approach Him. Finally, there are those who are properly prepared by the blood of the lamb and the instructions of Adonai to approach Adonai Yeshua, who is our High Priest.

Have I gotten this correct?


Nope. And I'd take you to the parable of the marriage feast in Matthew 22. There was only one distinquishing feature that made one suitable for attendance, being dressed in wedding clothes.

Only those dressed in the robe of righteousness given by Jesus or found dressed in wedding clothes as the parable says are the chosen. So we're down to two groups, the 'haves' with the right clothes (wedding clothes/robe of righteousness given by Jesus) and the 'have nots' without.

I don't understand how you are arriving at 'three' groups.[8|]



Bluethread -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/4/2009 3:01:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

Good, let me recap. Humanity can basically be divided into three groups. First, there are those who hate or are indifferent to Adonai and those have no hope of entering into Adonai's presence, in their present state. Second, there are those recognize Adonai, but do not know how to properly approach Him. Finally, there are those who are properly prepared by the blood of the lamb and the instructions of Adonai to approach Adonai Yeshua, who is our High Priest.

Have I gotten this correct?


Nope. And I'd take you to the parable of the marriage feast in Matthew 22. There was only one distinquishing feature that made one suitable for attendance, being dressed in wedding clothes.

Only those dressed in the robe of righteousness given by Jesus or found dressed in wedding clothes as the parable says are the chosen. So we're down to two groups, the 'haves' with the right clothes (wedding clothes/robe of righteousness given by Jesus) and the 'have nots' without.

I don't understand how you are arriving at 'three' groups.[8|]


I am reluctant to go down the road of mixing metaphors or parables. Not all have the same purpose and therefore may not match perfectly. That said, Matthew 22 does speak to a third group. vs 5-6 "But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them." These had no interest in attending at all, let alone wearing the proper clothes. In fact, the case of the man without the proper clothes fits well into an understanding of the temple and the veil.

Be that as it may, I will use the two group approach in looking at the temple and the veil. It has been agreed that those who have not been consecrated by the blood, would not be able to approach the Holy of Holies. Then one could say these are not permitted into the temple at all correct?



rcjames -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/4/2009 9:42:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Good, let me recap. Humanity can basically be divided into three groups. First, there are those who hate or are indifferent to Adonai and those have no hope of entering into Adonai's presence, in their present state. Second, there are those recognize Adonai, but do not know how to properly approach Him.


I would think that neither of the above groups can approach God in thier present state; for they are rejecting Christ.

Or maybe you could expand on your interpretation of "Properly approaching God"?

Thanks
RC

Thanks
RC



ChainSaw -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/4/2009 9:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

Good, let me recap. Humanity can basically be divided into three groups. First, there are those who hate or are indifferent to Adonai and those have no hope of entering into Adonai's presence, in their present state. Second, there are those recognize Adonai, but do not know how to properly approach Him. Finally, there are those who are properly prepared by the blood of the lamb and the instructions of Adonai to approach Adonai Yeshua, who is our High Priest.

Have I gotten this correct?

...I don't understand how you are arriving at 'three' groups.[8|]

I think I do.

I believe he's referring to those who believe in Christ but do not observe the Mosaic requirements for approaching God in worship (feasts/ Sabbaths, etc.).



ChainSaw -> RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil (11/4/2009 10:02:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Good, let me recap. Humanity can basically be divided into three groups. First, there are those who hate or are indifferent to Adonai and those have no hope of entering into Adonai's presence, in their present state. Second, there are those recognize Adonai, but do not know how to properly approach Him.

...maybe you could expand on your interpretation of "Properly approaching God"?

I'm confident he's going to say keeping the Mosaic law regarding worship.

It's interesting how much meaning comes out of the following passage when you think of the veil that covers the heart as representative of the veil that hid the glory of God from the people of God behind the curtain (veil) of the Holy of Holies:


2 Cor. 3

9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.



For those of MJ persuasiion, it's hard for MJ to see the glory and reality of what we've been talking about here because to them the veil still remains because they keep looking at the shadow and not the reality that cast that shadow. They keep looking at the curtain! A constant emphasis on the glory of the old covenant (as glorious as it surely was) will effectively keep the veil in place and keep one from seeing the full glory of the new covenant.

To me it's very hard to try to embrace and exalt both the glory of the old covenant and the new. It seems one of 'em invariably has to give way to the other. Kinda like that 'old wine/ new wine' thing.



Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI