The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is no evidence of transitional fossils.
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The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is no e... - 11/16/2009 12:59:16 AM
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StephenJ
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So for a long time growing up in Christian schools, on Christian television, and in Christian books I was told that there is absolutely no evidence of evolutinary transition. Basically I was sold the idea that scientest have never found clear evidence of one creature turning into another one.
Many Y.E.C creationist request...actually demand... that evolutionist present examples of transition in the fossil record. I use to be like that until I discovered something as I started really digging into the mammalian fossil record.
I discovered that there is strong evidence that some of the small Eocene creatures called Hyracotherium (also known as Eohippus) changed and adapted until it became the modern genus equus (horses, zebras, donkeys etc.) What suprised me even more was the fact that scientest have basically bridged the gap by finding complete or near complete fossils of all the steps along the way. Ancient horse fossils are actually pretty common as far as fossils go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_Evolution
The big changes that scientest point out are the toes and the teeth. Hyracotherium had several toes, but as the fossil record goes on we see those toes gradually reduce until they become the one extended toe or hoof of our equistrian friends.
There's also the teeth demonstrating clear dental transition, so we can see that as the climate changed so did the teeth of these animals until they became mouths perfectly adapted for grazing on grass. Many of these diffrences between species are slight diffrences, which evolutionist believe show gradual change. Others appear to be much more rapid.
Some Y.E creationist claim that since some of these horse like animals are known to have coexisted proving that one couldn't have turned into the other. However, what must be understood is that not all of a given population of animals must change in order for macroevolution to happen. Only certain animals in a particular location where enviromental changes occur that neccecitate a change in anatomy need to evolve. In other words these changes happen because they have to or go extinct, not just for random reasons. I question the idea that animals "ascend" to superior animals, I think they just adapt because there is a need.
So anyway, on this board some Y.E.C advocates have been clamoring for evolutionist to present evidence of transition. I believe the horse family presents a fairly good argument for macroevolution.
Thank you in advance for discussing this in a civilized manner.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/16/2009 6:32:26 AM
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schtumpy
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Yes, the horse is a lovely, clear example that scientists use.
I think the whale is even more elegant.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/16/2009 3:16:03 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
So for a long time growing up in Christian schools, on Christian television, and in Christian books I was told that there is absolutely no evidence of evolutinary transition. Basically I was sold the idea that scientest have never found clear evidence of one creature turning into another one.
Many Y.E.C creationist request...actually demand... that evolutionist present examples of transition in the fossil record. I use to be like that until I discovered something as I started really digging into the mammalian fossil record.
.....
So anyway, on this board some Y.E.C advocates have been clamoring for evolutionist to present evidence of transition. I believe the horse family presents a fairly good argument for macroevolution.
It's been a long time since anyone brought up horse evolution! As is typical when discussisng any scientific topic, it's important to realize that the topic is never as simple as it's displayed in a high school text book. Electrons don't spin in circles around the nucleus. Plants don't just bend their stems in order to face the sun. Strawberries and raspberries are not berries, but bananas and tomatoes are. And horse evolution did not follow a straight line from a dog-sized predecessor to the modern day horse. Stephen, if there's one thing that has been especially emphasized in this forum, it's that fossil evidence demonstrates one of two things: 1) every hypothesis or 2) no hypothesis whatsoever.
What we typically see in the fossil record is stuff that pops up suddenly in explosions with everything else, stays the same for forever, then mysteriously disappears in mass extinctions. I'm ok with the idea that the horse kind is represented by all the various species that we see in the fossil record, a baraminologist could do research on this topic. The problem that I have is that the fossil record is assumed to represent a gradual process from one species to another, often times despite the fact that the norm is as I described. We then come up with excuses to explain the particulars as though they were the exception! We find excuses like "not everything dies" and "the niche must not have changed" or "there was no selection pressure" or "I'm not a geologist". I think that, of all the excuses, the last one is the most reasonable answer.
< Message edited by DanJames -- 11/16/2009 3:23:55 PM >
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/16/2009 8:00:42 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I'm ok with the idea that the horse kind is represented by all the various species that we see in the fossil record, a baraminologist could do research on this topic. Which has already been done and published:
Horse Fossils and the Nature of Science
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/16/2009 9:37:40 PM
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AnalystsAreUs
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No one is arguing that existing structures do not change. What never happens is that a new structure appears were one never existed before. For example, horses have always had 4 legs. They did not start with just one, two or three. They have always had 4. Horses do not have wings. They never have and never will. Horses do not have fins. They never have and they never will.
Given that you can classify animals according to a kind is a good indication that evolution never happened. If it did, you should not see the distinct differences that you do today because animals shared the same environment.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/16/2009 10:02:44 PM
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schtumpy
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Do you think chickens ever had teeth, or a longer tail?
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 2:35:28 AM
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StephenJ
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Good point Dan I should have included your 1st point.
It is noteworthy that horse development wasn't in a straight line. That's something that textbooks sometimes get wrong. Many would argue that genus equus wasn't even the "goal", but that the ancestors of modern zebras and horses just happened to be the one group that survived.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/17/2009 2:44:33 AM >
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 7:57:19 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
Given that you can classify animals according to a kind is a good indication that evolution never happened. If it did, you should not see the distinct differences that you do today because animals shared the same environment.
Given that evolution predicts a nested hierarchy and we observe a nested hierarchy at all levels is strong evidence for evolution.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 10:43:30 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Many would argue that genus equus wasn't even the "goal", but that the ancestors of modern zebras and horses just happened to be the one group that survived. Uhh, I thought all evolutionists argue that modern descendants just "happened to survive"!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 10:54:16 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Given that evolution predicts a nested hierarchy and we observe a nested hierarchy at all levels is strong evidence for evolution. Given that intelligent design predicts a nested hierarchy and we observe a nested hierarchy at all levels is strong evidence for intelligent design.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 11:16:52 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Given that evolution predicts a nested hierarchy and we observe a nested hierarchy at all levels is strong evidence for evolution. Given that intelligent design predicts a nested hierarchy and we observe a nested hierarchy at all levels is strong evidence for intelligent design.
Designed objects do not tend to fall into a nested hierarchy. The observed nested hierarchy is a big problem for design proponents.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 11:38:51 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Designed objects do not tend to fall into a nested hierarchy. Indeed, they are made into nested hierachies through economy of design. Witness the hammer clade - claw, ball pein, sledge, mallet, etc. The observed nested hierarchy is no problem at all for design proponents!
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 1:07:28 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Designed objects do not tend to fall into a nested hierarchy. Indeed, they are made into nested hierachies through economy of design. Witness the hammer clade - claw, ball pein, sledge, mallet, etc. The observed nested hierarchy is no problem at all for design proponents!
Design objects tend to use systems from one group in an unrelated group.
How would you put the following into a nested hierarchy:
Hand saw
Electric saw
Hand drill
Electric drill
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 1:32:04 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Given that evolution predicts a nested hierarchy and we observe a nested hierarchy at all levels is strong evidence for evolution. Given that intelligent design predicts a nested hierarchy and we observe a nested hierarchy at all levels is strong evidence for intelligent design.
Designed objects do not tend to fall into a nested hierarchy. The observed nested hierarchy is a big problem for design proponents.
While there wasn't necessarily a need to place things into nested hierarchy, it's a good thing they were. Medical research would be extremely difficult if there was no nested hierarchy.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 1:47:44 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
While there wasn't necessarily a need to place things into nested hierarchy, it's a good thing they were. Medical research would be extremely difficult if there was no nested hierarchy.
Medical research would certainly be radically different if we didn't have animals related to us for study.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 1:52:19 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Medical research would certainly be radically different if we didn't have animals related to us for study. Yes, isn't it wonderful that God used common design features to create His living organisms!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 1:58:17 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Medical research would certainly be radically different if we didn't have animals related to us for study. Yes, isn't it wonderful that God used common design features to create His living organisms!
It's wonderful that we have animals closely related to us for study.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 3:13:20 PM
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drmark
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Why do you find that "wonderful", veritas? I thought a good evolutionist like yourself would consider RM + NS to be completely devoid of any wonder. You know, just uniformitarian naturalistic processes at work... 
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 3:51:30 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Medical research would certainly be radically different if we didn't have animals related to us for study. Yes, isn't it wonderful that God used common design features to create His living organisms!
It's wonderful that we have animals closely related to us for study.
It is, although I wouldn't say "related" except in the sense that we are similar. I'm not saying that it's necessarily evidence positive for design, but I would say that it is a decent explanation for Nested Hierarchy from the Christian worldview.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 3:53:28 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Why do you find that "wonderful", veritas? I thought a good evolutionist like yourself would consider RM + NS to be completely devoid of any wonder. You know, just uniformitarian naturalistic processes at work...
The sciences and the math behind have always filled me with awe and wonder. It's sad that not everyone can see the awe and wonder that I see.
So... How are you coming along with placing hand saw, electric saw, hand drill and electric drill into a nested hierarchy?
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 3:59:36 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
It is, although I wouldn't say "related" except in the sense that we are similar. I'm not saying that it's necessarily evidence positive for design, but I would say that it is a decent explanation for Nested Hierarchy from the Christian worldview.
Evolved systems naturally fit into a nested hierarchy. A nested hierarchy is unexpected in designed systems.
What do you propose is the "decent explanation for Nested Hierarchy from the Christian worldview"?
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 4:04:07 PM
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drmark
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quote:
It's sad that not everyone can see the awe and wonder that I see. It's even sadder that not everyone can see the wonder of Creator God displayed throughout His living world!
quote:
So... How are you coming along with placing hand saw, electric saw, hand drill and electric drill into a nested hierarchy? Oh, about as well as you would placing an earthworm and a tube worm and a mole and a whale in a nested hierarchy.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 4:04:25 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
It is, although I wouldn't say "related" except in the sense that we are similar. I'm not saying that it's necessarily evidence positive for design, but I would say that it is a decent explanation for Nested Hierarchy from the Christian worldview.
Evolved systems naturally fit into a nested hierarchy. A nested hierarchy is unexpected in designed systems.
What do you propose is the "decent explanation for Nested Hierarchy from the Christian worldview"?
Just what I said. It makes the world in which we live more knowable. I don't know that this is why God did it that way, but I can at least see the wisdom in His doing so.
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 4:16:55 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So... How are you coming along with placing hand saw, electric saw, hand drill and electric drill into a nested hierarchy? Oh, about as well as you would placing an earthworm and a tube worm and a mole and a whale in a nested hierarchy.
In other words, you got nothing. I expected as much.
It is well established that life fits into a nested hierarchy. It is also the case a nested hierarchy is totally unexpected in designed systems.
< Message edited by Veritas -- 11/17/2009 4:23:21 PM >
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RE: The horse family and the Y.E.C claim that there is ... - 11/17/2009 4:19:51 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
It is, although I wouldn't say "related" except in the sense that we are similar. I'm not saying that it's necessarily evidence positive for design, but I would say that it is a decent explanation for Nested Hierarchy from the Christian worldview.
Evolved systems naturally fit into a nested hierarchy. A nested hierarchy is unexpected in designed systems.
What do you propose is the "decent explanation for Nested Hierarchy from the Christian worldview"?
Just what I said. It makes the world in which we live more knowable. I don't know that this is why God did it that way, but I can at least see the wisdom in His doing so.
If life were designed and didn't fit into a nested hierarchy, we would still have medical research. Science studies lots of things that do not fit into a nested hierarchy.
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