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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/1/2010 11:56:36 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 416
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
The problem with the Ellis Theory which you adhere to. The temple in Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70 AD and has never been rebuilt. So no A/D is possible, not even in 70 AD. An arbitrary usage of the date 688AD makes no sense, because there was no temple. You're just blindly following someone else s idea, so there is no originality on your part.
Marv…just a thought; the temple mount itself (Mt. Moriah) is holy to God. Always has been and always will be.
If the Dome wasn’t there today, what would exist? Of course the Jews would have reconstructed another temple there. So I could make an argument that the temple mount itself is made desolate and will remain so until the object that denies the Son of God is removed. Daniel 12 doesn’t say that the temple itself is made desolate, only that an object will cause desolation.
In Messiah,
Bob
Bob
You could make an argument.
But, then you need to confront Daniel. Dan 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. Now how long is a full seven. According to Daniel, it is seven years, as were the prior 69 weeks of sevens. In the middle of the seven, he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple, he will set up the abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on HIM.
Bob, now how does the Dome of the Rock have anything to do with this last Seven. This is a full seven year period. The Dome went up because there was nothing else there. Do you see the problem - What happened 3 1/2 years prior to the building of the Dome? And then what happened for the next 3 1/2 year period. Was this the 70th week of Daniel? I think not.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/1/2010 11:11:46 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 796
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Wayne I just raise a question for consideration because I don't think you can deny that the Dome has made desolation to the temple mount.
I continue to question all things when it comes to our interpretation of prophecy and everyday I learn something new. In some things there is great danger in blindly accepting the teaching of any man and I think Gods word holds great mystery yet not understood. After all we were told in Daniel that understanding would be locked up until the time of the end.
There was a point during the Babylonian era when sacrifice was abolished and it does appear to be around 583BC. 1271 years later the Dome was started...coincidence, maybe but I think one has to consider the possibility when taken in light of the fact that the Dome did make desolate.
In Messiah,
Bob
I know you've written this to Wayne, but I just wanted to bring things back to the OP.
First, I don't think that you can equate Dani'el's PROPHECY with things that happened in Dani'el's PAST. If Dani'el is where you are getting the opinion that sacrifice would be abolished, then why would you equate that with Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar when Dani'el survived past that point and was shown the prophecy of Dani'el 9:24-27 well after that point while he was in Medo-Persia under Darius son of Xerxes? (Dan. 9:1)
The introduction of the Dome to Mount Moriah is an example of Islam taking advantage of the fact that the Romans had destroyed the Temple, left it in ruins, and dispersed Isra'el throughout the Roman Empire. It was their chance to take Isra'el's land unlawfully and put up their own shrine to Avraham. They claimed YHVH'S land as their own! The Dome is NOT part of the prophecy. It is an abomination to be sure, but it is NOT what Dani'el had recorded of Gavri'el's prophecy. It NEVER made the desolation; it strictly took advantage of the desolation that already existed!
As appealing as the numbers may have been, the truth is that it is WRONG to equate a year with 360 days! PERIOD! Even the Jewish calendar (new or old) does NOT give one these numbers! They are numbers for convenience. Without the conversion to 360-day "years," there's no way to get to 688 A.D. from 583 B.C., but these 360-day "years" are not real years! There's just no way to physically, concretely, meteorologically justify these fractions-of-years as REAL, WHOLE YEARS! One thing is necessary to understand: 360/364.2422 = 0.9856473 IS A FRACTION BY DEFINITION! Thus, 360-day "years" are FRACTIONS of real years. Since the YEAR, by definition, is normally the path the earth takes around the sun to make one complete revolution, from the beginning of Spring (Hebrew: Aviv) to the beginning of Spring, it is based on the earth's position to the sun. Thus, the true year is solar, not lunar. God knows this better than any human being; so, why would He speak through Gavri'el and use a false, "lunar year," a mere fraction of a true, solar year? If one were going to use the Jewish lunar year, one MUST also include the leap months of Adar II (and sometimes Adar III) and bring the figures back to a true, solar year.
Therefore, I believe that it is best to see a year as a year, a day as a day, and to understand that these periods of so many days are just that! 1260 days are 1260 days! 1290 days are 1290 days! 2300 days are 2300 days! 42 months are 42 months! A "time, times, and a half a time" (Hebrew: l-mow`eed mow`adiym vaacheetsiy = "to-a-festival-(singular) festivals-(dual) and-its-halfway-point/and-its-middle") is a "time, times, and a half a time," or 3.5 "times" or 3.5 "festivals." If a gap has been introduced, then a gap should be accepted, but under NO circumstances should one try to stretch out the time by using the "1 day = 1 year" approach.
(By the way, "its" is a third-person possessive meaning something "belongs to it," and "it's" is a contraction of "it is." If you cannot substitute "it is" in place of the word you mean to write, then you should use the possessive "its," not "it's." ONLY when one CAN substitute the words "it is" in the sentence, making sense to the reader, should one use the contraction.)
As I've said at the beginning of this topic, I strongly believe that there is a gap and that the gap is based upon YESHUA` leaving Isra'el "desolate" because of their own abominations!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/2/2010 1:16:21 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 796
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I'm not sure if one can say for sure that a season is six months or three months. I believe that a season in Isra'el is and has pretty much always been based on the changes in the weather patterns. The prevailing temperature variations (hot/cold) and the prevailing rainfall variations (wet/dry) as well as the wind directions and their interactions are going to change the weather patterns. Today, in our country, we have basically adopted the FOUR seasons, but in Egypt, for instance, they have 18 different words for different kinds of winds and their weather patterns, and that extends to the Sinai Penninsula, as well. I'm not saying they've always had four seasons; they may have MORE, but I really don't believe that it's right to limit the number of seasons to two; however, if you feel that's important, I really would have no objections.
I assure you it isn't a vanity thing, some prophecies mention 'season', that makes it important to define it as much as possible. If winter is mentioned then it gives you the information that winter is also a wet season and making an escape across a muddy landscape is harder than if it was in the summer. A season is also associated with the sun rather than the moon so it would be 1/2 of a solar year rather than being associated with 6 lunar months. The sun is also said to be the marker of years, 1,000 years should be 1,000 solar years to the day without any adjustments. During that 1,000 years the moon could still be used as a marker for months.
Yes, and I'm just trying to inform YOU that you must be careful with the word "season." Is it indeed a "season" as a given period of time within a year, OR does it mean "an undetermined amount of time (as in the Greek word 'chronos')?" Do NOT think that the English word "season" must always be one of the six-month periods known as "summer" or "winter!" Nor must it be the one of the three-month periods known as "seedtime," "summer," "harvest," or "winter!" It may just mean "an abbreviated period of time," as it does in Revelation 20:3.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
And, yes, I believe that means that the "living waters" (constantly flowing waters) would be a year round flow. They understand wadis that dry up during the dry season and stagnant water such as that in the Dead Sea. So, these rivers that flow from Yerushalaim in the Millennium will flow east to the (once) Dead Sea and west to the Mediterranean Sea all year around.
To further complicate matters, the Greek word translated "season" in Rev. 20:3, "chronon," a form of "chronos," simply means a "space of time" and has no direct link to a formal season of the year. Thus, "mikron chronon" just means "a brief time."
Re:6:11:
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were,
That should be a reference to the two witnesses (fellowservants that will be killed).
Perhaps; that is one possibility. You need to be aware, though, that the SAME WORDS used in Rev. 20:3 are also used here in Rev. 6:11: "chronon mikron" meaning a "short time." The words do NOT mean a definite "season," as one of the four (or two) seasons.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
'They' would arrive with the Armies, and the 24 Elders and whoever else. I think 'they' refers to people, the Apostles, and some from the OT that were prophets or some other role in Scripture. Once they arrive, they will 'reclaim their earthly bodies' so everybody has the 'form.'
This is also a possibility. The resurrection, followed by the rapture and the transporting, and then by the return and the rescue, takes TIME to accomplish! However, I have to admit that, for now, the "jury is out" on this matter. I have not quite decided whether this resurrection of the two witnesses HAS to be the same as the resurrection of all the saints. While I am leaning that way, I've not yet proved it to myself one way or the other.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I'm basically in agreement with you. The earth did not gain additional water in the composition of the mass of the earth. I'm of the opinion, however, that there used to be a canopy of water vapor in the outer reaches of the atmosphere. Water vapor is invisible. Only when water in the atmosphere condenses on dust particles in the air do clouds form, and only in its condensed form would it block the light from celestial objects, such as the sun, moon and the stars. The Bible is clear that there was no rain before the Flood of Noach's time. Instead, there was a mist that rose with the sun (Gen. 2:5-6). I also believe that there were oceans or seas (although smaller than today's oceans, Gen. 1:9-10) in which the fish thrived (Gen. 1:20-23) and the four rivers mentioned in Genesis 2:10-14. However, God specifically said that what started the Flood was both the fountains of the deep being broken open and the rain which fell for 40 days and 40 nights (Gen. 7:11-12). Thus, initially, it was NOT the water cycle of evaporation/condensation/precipitation that caused the Flood, although for the next year, it certainly was a contributing factor.
And, by the way, 21 feet is a MINIMUM for the amount of rainfall; that is the height over which the mountains were covered (Gen. 7:20 - 15 cubits x 18 inches/cubit x 1 foot/12 inches = 22.5 feet)! Thus, however high the highest mountain was at the time, the waters prevailed 22.5 feet higher than that! I also believe that the weight of the water and the water pressure in longer columns of water would force areas which were once valleys on the earth's crust to buckle and sink. As a counterweight, areas with shorter columns of water above the earth's crust nearby would be pushed upward forming mountains, like on a seesaw. Thus, it is believed through the principles of hydrodynamics and fluid mechanics, that ocean beds became deeper and mountains rose close to the shore lines of those oceans during the aftermath of the Flood.
Some people think Psalm 104 is talking about the Creation. It's really talking about the RE-Creation after the FLOOD!
Ps 104:1-9
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: (There were no clouds before the Flood.) who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. (The earth's crust WAS moved during the Flood.)
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. (Gen. 7:20)
7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; (Literally, "the mountains go up.") they go down by the valleys (Literally, "the valleys go down.") unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (Gen. 9:11)
KJV
Ok 22.5ft Let's hope that is the right choice.
* 6 palms = 24 digits, i.e. ~45.0 cm or 18 inches (1.50 ft)
* 7 palms = 28 digits, i.e. ~52.5 cm or 21 inches (1.75 ft)[1]
* 8 palms = 32 digits, i.e. ~60.0 cm or 24 inches (2.00 ft)
* 9 palms = 36 digits, i.e. ~67.5 cm or 27 inches (2.25 ft)
Would it matter that much which choice we make on how long the "cubit" was in Gen. 7:20? This is a MINIMUM height (the 22.5 feet); the others are going to be deeper than that!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Anyway, could columns of water be from the rain coming down but then staying just where it landed (seeping into all cracks) but just getting deeper until the full 40 days of rain. Even then it would appear the water stayed that way for 150 days and then the runnoff started and it took some months to complete (gentle lowering of the water rather than a flash-flood rampage to the sea) I'll wait for an appropriate thread to get into greater detail (defending that statement)
Mist is the same as fog, it is visible, prior to the flood there would have been that mist on the whole earth. No shadows because the light would have been diffused. It is even possible that the mist lifted from ground level as long as the mist (ground level cloud) remained unbroken and no blue sky was visable from any point on earth.
Apparently, you believe in the "tranquil flood" theory. If this Flood was global in scope (and I believe there is evidence to support that conclusion, both internal to Scriptures and external in geology and archaeology), then it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Flood to be a tranquil flood! The whole earth was covered by this body of water, to the point that the highest mountain was covered by 22.5 feet (at least) of water, burying all land masses in water. The earth would have suffered tremendous upheavals as the "fountains of the deep were broken up." You need to get a full picture of the scope of this Flood: The Scriptures tell us of SEVERAL things about this Flood....
Gen. 7:17-24
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Gen. 8:1-14
1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;
2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
KJV
The Flood wasn't just the rain which lasted for 40 days and nights; it was also the "fountains of the deep" being broken up. The waters PREVAILED (INCREASED) for 150 days! The waters weren't even beginning to abate until 150 days had passed! Verses 6 through 12 are parenthetical and go back to just after the 40 days and nights of rain stopped.
Noach opened the window and sent out the raven, but he made a mistake in sending the raven, because the raven was too strong and was able to fly back and forth until the waters dried up enough for it to land.
Then, he sent out a weaker bird, the dove. Since the dove could not find a place to land, she returned to the ark.
The next week, he tried again. Again, the dove came back, but apparently the tops of the trees were visible because she had picked off a single olive leaf to bring back.
Another week passed, and this time, when Noach sent out the dove, she did not come back; she had found a place to land.
It was not until ONE FULL YEAR had passed that Noach looked out and saw the SURFACE of the ground was drying, but it was not until another month and 27 days, almost 2 lunar months had passed, that they were able to walk out on SOLID ground again. But, REMEMBER! The ark had landed in the Ararat Mountains in Turkey! The water was STILL abating, because they were still close to sea level!
Also, you seem not to have a good understanding of the vastness of the earth! Living in Florida, I can go to Epcot Center and see the 360-degree movies of the vastness of this planet Earth! If indeed this was a global Flood, and all of this water was abating in just over a year, don't you think there would be some MAJOR run-offs and erosion?! What do you think carved the Grand Canyon?! What do you think initially carved the Norwegian and Swedish fiords?! What do you think carved out the hollows of the Carlsbad Caverns, the Fantastic Caverns, the Luray Caverns, the Diamond Caverns, the Howe Caverns, the Natural Bridge Caverns, and the Meramac Caverns, to name just a few?! Some geologists believe that India "snapped back" into the mainland of Asia creating the mountains of Tibet and Nepal where Mt. Everest is found. Look at the mountain chains of the world and notice how they are almost always to be found within a given distance of the nearest oceans: the Rockies are along the coast of the Pacific, the Appalachians are along the coast of the Atlantic, The mountains of Peru and Chile are along the coast of the southern Pacific, and the list goes on.
One can repeat this process by performing an experiment: Take a bucket of water and pour it into the center of a patch of dry dust or loose sand. Then, look at the edge of the pool one makes with the bucket of water. One will find small "mountains" surrounding the pool, as the dirt or sand is pushed upward being displaced by the water. This is a demonstration of Psalm 104:8, and it's what happened in just a couple of years after the initial rains of the Flood!
No, this was not a local flood nor a tranquil flood; this was a GLOBAL FLOOD of MASSIVE proportions!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yes, I believe that they are the same covenant (Hebrew: b'rit), and they can be the same one and the last half of the 70th week (or even the whole of the 70th week) can be future, because 9:27 does not say that he MAKES the covenant with many, but rather that he CONFIRMS (or RATIFIES; makes it STRONGER) the covenant with many!
There was a prior one given to Abraham that said all families of the earth would be blessed through his seed. There is also the prophecy about their being a witness (John the Baptist) to the arrival of the Messiah. The Gospel was taken to many Nations shortly after the cross.
That IS the covenant I'm talking about! The Avrahamic covenant, passed down to Yitschak (Isaac), Ya'acov (Jacob), and to the twelve tribes of Isra'el. And, yes, the Gospel was taken to the Gowyim (Gentiles) after the cross, but that was made possible by the temporary blindness of the Jews brought on by the desolation from Yeshua`s pronouncment of Matthew 23:37-39.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
I'm sure I could make a case for the above assumption being correct. With God being the confirmer wouldn't it also mean His 'appearance' at the time of Stephen's death
Ac:7:56:
And said,
Behold,
I see the heavens opened,
and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Later
Yes, knowing you a little, I'm sure you could make such a case, but does that mean that the time of Stephen's death is the end of the 70 Sevens? I don't think so, because not all six of the purposes for the 70 Sevens have been completed, yet.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/2/2010 5:24:46 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Morning Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The introduction of the Dome to Mount Moriah is an example of Islam taking advantage of the fact that the Romans had destroyed the Temple, left it in ruins, and dispersed Isra'el throughout the Roman Empire. It was their chance to take Isra'el's land unlawfully and put up their own shrine to Avraham. They claimed YHVH'S land as their own! The Dome is NOT part of the prophecy. It is an abomination to be sure, but it is NOT what Dani'el had recorded of Gavri'el's prophecy. It NEVER made the desolation; it strictly took advantage of the desolation that already existed!
Unlawfully??
God took the land back when He had Neb sack the Temple. Romans had control of the land when Jesus was here. Jerusalem had it's Temple though and it played a role in Jesus's time. It isn't given back to them until the wicked are about to be sent to hell.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
As I've said at the beginning of this topic, I strongly believe that there is a gap and that the gap is based upon YESHUA` leaving Isra'el "desolate" because of their own abominations!
That would have to be a continuation of that same covenant, only this time the prophecies being fulfilled would be His coming as King. 3 1/2 years would have to pass before before a new covenant could be brought in. It is mentioned in Hebrews and this is part of the details.
Jer:31:31:
Behold,
the days come,
saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah:
Jer:31:32:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them,
saith the LORD:
Jer:31:33:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days,
saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yes, and I'm just trying to inform YOU that you must be careful with the word "season." Is it indeed a "season" as a given period of time within a year, OR does it mean "an undetermined amount of time (as in the Greek word 'chronos')?" Do NOT think that the English word "season" must always be one of the six-month periods known as "summer" or "winter!" Nor must it be the one of the three-month periods known as "seedtime," "summer," "harvest," or "winter!" It may just mean "an abbreviated period of time," as it does in Revelation 20:3.
Still in verses like the one below I would like to be able to 'visualize the intended time-frame' as being a certain length. The Bible doesn't give me any reason to take it to be less than 6 months. Certainly in some verses it is a generic word for an unspecified period of time that can still be roughly estimated.
Lu:4:13: And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Perhaps; that is one possibility. You need to be aware, though, that the SAME WORDS used in Rev. 20:3 are also used here in Rev. 6:11: "chronon mikron" meaning a "short time." The words do NOT mean a definite "season," as one of the four (or two) seasons.
I'm not trying to include 'short time' as being associated with 'season'. The verse below should be the length of the time of the iron/clay kingdom of Daniel. The Beast's 42 months is the length of 'short time', Satan releases the Beast and they are dealt with on the day Christ returns.
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This is also a possibility. The resurrection, followed by the rapture and the transporting, and then by the return and the rescue, takes TIME to accomplish! However, I have to admit that, for now, the "jury is out" on this matter. I have not quite decided whether this resurrection of the two witnesses HAS to be the same as the resurrection of all the saints. While I am leaning that way, I've not yet proved it to myself one way or the other.
The breath of life comes with Christ and that would be for all people that will be resurrected for life as well as the living that will also be there. Everybody stays on earth until after Satan is sent to the lake and then everybody goes to the Great White Throne which is the first time anybody sees the face of God. The sequence for the two witnesses is death, resurrection, ascension to the clouds (with Christ) witness the effects of the vials, descend to earth and the resurrection of Israel and the Church begins. By the end of the day that it begins it is finished.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Would it matter that much which choice we make on how long the "cubit" was in Gen. 7:20? This is a MINIMUM height (the 22.5 feet); the others are going to be deeper than that!
It matters not to me, perhaps I should just have said slightly more than 20 ft. I'm quite sure I have used 22.5 in the longer flood threads, the rain piling up was the important part.
Tranquil flood .... now I'm sure that is a term I have never used and never will. ABOUT 6" rain per day for 40 straight days, then that 22.5' of water stays right where it landed for the rest of the 150 days. The sequence I laid out is in the verses you posted. Using some numbers that are rounded off the earth has a mountain that is 30,000 ft ends up receiving 22.5 ft of rain. A high hill at 10,000 ft also receives 22.5 ft of rain, that is how much water would cover the high hills, it would not have 20,022.5 ft of water covering it. It's been a few years since I have been on this subject, and there were still some unanswered question that wasn't covered by any Scripture anyone could find, so we 'guessed'. One was could the animals have been the very young rather than adult beasts (taking up much less room per pair). Using the longest measurement for cubit the Ark could be made quite a bit larger, and does the Bile supply two accounts of the same period of time, I'll post it below. At the present I'm inclined believe they cover the same 40 days it rained. Ge:8:6:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Apparently, you believe in the "tranquil flood" theory. If this Flood was global in scope (and I believe there is evidence to support that conclusion, both internal to Scriptures and external in geology and archaeology), then it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Flood to be a tranquil flood! The whole earth was covered by this body of water, to the point that the highest mountain was covered by 22.5 feet (at least) of water, burying all land masses in water. The earth would have suffered tremendous upheavals as the "fountains of the deep were broken up." You need to get a full picture of the scope of this Flood: The Scriptures tell us of SEVERAL things about this Flood....
Gen. 7:17-24
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Gen. 8:1-14
1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;
2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
KJV
The Flood wasn't just the rain which lasted for 40 days and nights; it was also the "fountains of the deep" being broken up. The waters PREVAILED (INCREASED) for 150 days! The waters weren't even beginning to abate until 150 days had passed! Verses 6 through 12 are parenthetical and go back to just after the 40 days and nights of rain stopped.
Those two words mean two different things when they are used in the same sentence. Prevailed means the water stayed on the land, during the 40 days they increased means they got deeper.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Noach opened the window and sent out the raven, but he made a mistake in sending the raven, because the raven was too strong and was able to fly back and forth until the waters dried up enough for it to land.
The raven was sent because it was a bird of prey, the dove needed trees/plants to survive. The raven would have kept returning until the tops of the mountains were visible, at least.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Then, he sent out a weaker bird, the dove. Since the dove could not find a place to land, she returned to the ark.
The next week, he tried again. Again, the dove came back, but apparently the tops of the trees were visible because she had picked off a single olive leaf to bring back.
Another week passed, and this time, when Noach sent out the dove, she did not come back; she had found a place to land.
Or a new tree that was bearing it's first leaves, it would not be large enough for a nest.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
It was not until ONE FULL YEAR had passed that Noach looked out and saw the SURFACE of the ground was drying, but it was not until another month and 27 days, almost 2 lunar months had passed, that they were able to walk out on SOLID ground again. But, REMEMBER! The ark had landed in the Ararat Mountains in Turkey! The water was STILL abating, because they were still close to sea level!
The flood started on 600.2.17
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Also, you seem not to have a good understanding of the vastness of the earth! Living in Florida, I can go to Epcot Center and see the 360-degree movies of the vastness of this planet Earth!
To get 20ft of water to cover 25% of the Earth's surface would mean the 75% would have to drop 1/4 of the total height, about 5'6"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
If indeed this was a global Flood, and all of this water was abating in just over a year, don't you think there would be some MAJOR run-offs and erosion?!
Sure and if most buildings were some form of mud-brick then they would have dissolved as well as being swept out to sea.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What do you think carved the Grand Canyon?!
Looks more like a crack. Say the inner portion of the crust is 'bendable without breaking' (ie red hot iron) Land masses have gained elevation over the eons. Say the crust is 25 mi deep, at that depth the mantle has become 'un-bendable' without cracking. As that crust rose closer and closer to the surface it also had to adjust itself to a 'new diameter. If it cannot bend it will crack, then water started to do it's work. There is another similar crack in the NW of the US, the explanation for how a river cut across a mountain range is quite fantastic, lol. I can re-find the name of that river if you like, perhaps there is even a vid available. Anyway they do not allow for a rift joint that started and then stopped, if you put on lots of weight in a hurry you will get stretch marks. Because the continents are being elevated the crust has to adjust itself, cracks do that. Those same stretch marks are quite visible in GoogleEarth version 5. Look at the Ocean floor off the coast of California, those are spreading cracks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What do you think initially carved the Norwegian and Swedish fiords?!
The original uplifting would have been about the same time the Atlantic Rift started spreading, about 170M years ago. Add several ice-ages and glaciers would have done some sculpting as well as normal weathering in warmer times. Off hand I forget how many there have been in that time.
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What do you think carved out the hollows of the Carlsbad Caverns, the Fantastic Caverns, the Luray Caverns, the Diamond Caverns, the Howe Caverns, the Natural Bridge Caverns, and the Meramac Caverns, to name just a few?!
The melting ice from the last ice-age has raised sea-level by about 400', a great deal of that could have been glacial lakes breaking free and creating areas like the scab-lands of the Pacific NW.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Some geologists believe that India "snapped back" into the mainland of Asia creating the mountains of Tibet and Nepal where Mt. Everest is found. Look at the mountain chains of the world and notice how they are almost always to be found within a given distance of the nearest oceans: the Rockies are along the coast of the Pacific, the Appalachians are along the coast of the Atlantic, The mountains of Peru and Chile are along the coast of the southern Pacific, and the list goes on.
If you reference a map of the age of the ocean-floor you will also see most are along rifts (spreading crust) rather than subduction zones. Unfortunately that map also shows that the rift that creates the backbone of the Americas is from upcoming magma rather than being from a subduction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
One can repeat this process by performing an experiment: Take a bucket of water and pour it into the center of a patch of dry dust or loose sand. Then, look at the edge of the pool one makes with the bucket of water. One will find small "mountains" surrounding the pool, as the dirt or sand is pushed upward being displaced by the water. This is a demonstration of Psalm 104:8, and it's what happened in just a couple of years after the initial rains of the Flood!
Would the effect be the same if the water came out of a sprinkler over a period of time?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, this was not a local flood nor a tranquil flood; this was a GLOBAL FLOOD of MASSIVE proportions!
When have I ever called it tranquil?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
That IS the covenant I'm talking about! The Avrahamic covenant, passed down to Yitschak (Isaac), Ya'acov (Jacob), and to the twelve tribes of Isra'el. And, yes, the Gospel was taken to the Gowyim (Gentiles) after the cross, but that was made possible by the temporary blindness of the Jews brought on by the desolation from Yeshua`s pronouncment of Matthew 23:37-39.
At that time Jesus was referencing OT Prophets who had been killed by the Temple elite. I don't believe it was a prophecy about Stephen.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yes, knowing you a little, I'm sure you could make such a case, but does that mean that the time of Stephen's death is the end of the 70 Sevens? I don't think so, because not all six of the purposes for the 70 Sevens have been completed, yet.
Stephen's death was an example of what the 'overspreading of abominations' included. They way Stephen was chosen also seemed to include knowing whoever did the speech would also die because of it. That would also include the money-changers tables being in the Temple after the cross and right up to it's destruction. Even after that the Gospel was still for Israel only, it took Peter's vision for that part to change. Any from the 12 Tribes that became believers after that would be classified as belonging to the Church.
Which of the 6 do you think have not been fulfilled. To anoint the most holy I would point to Jesus being anointed 3 times, once in the Temple when He was a month old, the anointing of the Holy Spirit at the River Jordan and by Mary the night before He was arrested. Being glorified by God on the 1st day of His resurrection is also something I would promote as being anointed. To seal up the prophecy is talking about events mentioned in the 70 weeks. It does not include restoration of things that were being made desolate. The others have similar explanations.
Later
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/2/2010 12:43:54 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline
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Wayfaring Stranger,
Not to get off topic but where does Scripture say that Mary anointed Jesus the night before He was arrested? I don't remember seeing that. Thanks.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/2/2010 3:06:15 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Wayfaring Stranger,
Not to get off topic but where does Scripture say that Mary anointed Jesus the night before He was arrested? I don't remember seeing that. Thanks.
Sorry,that should be a few nights before His arrest rather than the night before.
Joh:12:1:
Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany,
where Lazarus was which had been dead,
whom he raised from the dead.
Joh:12:2:
There they made him a supper;
and Martha served:
but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Joh:12:3:
Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard,
very costly,
and anointed the feet of Jesus,
and wiped his feet with her hair:
and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
Joh:12:4:
Then saith one of his disciples,
Judas Iscariot,
Simon's son, which should betray him,
Joh:12:5:
Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence,
and given to the poor?
Joh:12:6:
This he said,
not that he cared for the poor;
but because he was a thief,
and had the bag,
and bare what was put therein.
Joh:12:7:
Then said Jesus,
Let her alone:
against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
Joh:12:8:
For the poor always ye have with you;
but me ye have not always.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/2/2010 10:25:31 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Wayfaring Stranger,
Not to get off topic but where does Scripture say that Mary anointed Jesus the night before He was arrested? I don't remember seeing that. Thanks.
Sorry,that should be a few nights before His arrest rather than the night before.
Joh:12:1:
Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany,
where Lazarus was which had been dead,
whom he raised from the dead.
Joh:12:2:
There they made him a supper;
and Martha served:
but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Joh:12:3:
Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard,
very costly,
and anointed the feet of Jesus,
and wiped his feet with her hair:
and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
Joh:12:4:
Then saith one of his disciples,
Judas Iscariot,
Simon's son, which should betray him,
Joh:12:5:
Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence,
and given to the poor?
Joh:12:6:
This he said,
not that he cared for the poor;
but because he was a thief,
and had the bag,
and bare what was put therein.
Joh:12:7:
Then said Jesus,
Let her alone:
against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
Joh:12:8:
For the poor always ye have with you;
but me ye have not always.
Oh, sorry, lol. I'm such a dummy. Whenever someone says "Mary", unless they specify which one, I always think of Jesus' mother. Sorry.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/2/2010 10:34:57 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Roy after spending some time researching your assertion that half the week was over with the crucifixion of Christ I just might be coming around to your way of thinking. This would be based on the fact the Daniel 9:27 describes Christ and not some future antichrist.
That being said I find little evidence that the early church understood that there would be a gap between the 69th and 70th week. Certainly Matthew Henry didn’t as evident from this commentary of his:
quote:
Note this excerpt from the respected Presbyterian minister Matthew Henry's Commentary, dated 1708-1710:
The book of Daniel, Verses 20-27
An answer was immediately sent to Daniel's prayer, and it is a very memorable one. We cannot now expect that God should send answers to our prayers by angels, but if we pray with fervency for that which God has promised, we may by faith take the promise as an immediate answer to the prayer; for He is faithful that has promised. Daniel had a far greater and more glorious redemption discovered to him, which God would work out for his church in the latter days. Those who would be acquainted with Christ and his grace, must be much in prayer. The evening offering was a type of the great sacrifice Christ was to offer in the evening of the world: in virtue of that sacrifice Daniel's prayer was accepted; and for the sake of that, this glorious discovery of redeeming love was made to him. We have, in verses ( 24-27 ), one of the most remarkable prophecies of Christ, of his coming and his salvation. It shows that the Jews are guilty of most obstinate unbelief, in expecting another Messiah, so long after the time expressly fixed for his coming. The seventy weeks mean a day for a year, or 490 years. About the end of this period a sacrifice would be offered, making full atonement for sin, and bringing in everlasting righteousness for the complete justification of every believer. Then the Jews, in the crucifixion of Jesus, would commit that crime by which the measure of their guilt would be filled up, and troubles would come upon their nation. All blessings bestowed on sinful man come through Christ's atoning sacrifice, who suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Here is our way of access to the throne of grace, and of our entrance to heaven. This seals the sum of prophecy, and confirms the covenant with many; and while we rejoice in the blessings of salvation, we should remember what they cost the Redeemer. How can those escape who neglect so great salvation!
In fact I find little evidence of an early expectation of a long gap and it seems that maybe the argument for a gap originated in 1591AD, when the Jesuit Ribera invented a futurist view. He claimed that Revelation would not be fulfilled until the end of the Christian era. From there it was embellished by Darby then picked up by Skofield and taught to the Church in the early part of the last century.
So if I accept your 3 ½ year conclusion why shouldn’t I also accept the fact that the 70 week ended with the stoning of Stephen, when Christ set Israel aside and started building His church?
So tell me where I’m going wrong here.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/2/2010 10:51:35 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Oh, sorry, lol. I'm such a dummy. Whenever someone says "Mary", unless they specify which one, I always think of Jesus' mother. Sorry.
This is how Mary his mother had Him blessed.
Lu:2:22:
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished,
they brought him to Jerusalem,
to present him to the Lord;
Lu:2:23:
(As it is written in the law of the Lord,
Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
Lu:2:24:
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord,
A pair of turtledoves,
or two young pigeons.
Lu:2:25:
And,
behold,
there was a man in Jerusalem,
whose name was Simeon;
and the same man was just and devout,
waiting for the consolation of Israel:
and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Lu:2:26:
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,
that he should not see death,
before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Lu:2:27:
And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus,
to do for him after the custom of the law,
Lu:2:28:
Then took he him up in his arms,
and blessed God,
and said,
Lu:2:29:
Lord,
now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace,
according to thy word:
Lu:2:30:
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Lu:2:31:
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Lu:2:32:
A light to lighten the Gentiles,
and the glory of thy people Israel.
Lu:2:33:
And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/6/2010 11:28:21 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Here is a brief history of the early Church’s thoughts on the 70th week of Daniel and how this process changed in the 20th century American Church.
The early Church Fathers did not understand a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9. With few exceptions the understood the 70 weeks to be continuous; some seen the week ending in 70AD but many understood the week ended with the stoning of Stephen, at which time God set aside Israel, enlisted Paul and started building the Church.
There were a couple of exceptions and they were Irenaeus and Hippolytus who were contemporaries of Clements of Alexandria, while Clements taught that the blessings of the New Covenant required the end of biblical Judaism within the 70 weeks of Daniel.
It was not until the mid 1500’s that this view started to change when Martin Luther set the wheels in motion. Luther became convinced that the prophecies of Daniel were about the Roman Catholic Church and that Papal Rome was indeed the antichrist of the Bible prophecy. Hundreds of thousands of people left the RCC. In retaliation the RCC began a campaign to counter the claims of Luther at the Council of Trent. The Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the RCC. Francisco Ribera, a Jesuit priest published a commentary on Revelation as a counter-interpretation in 1590. Ribera applied all of Revelation except the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild the temple. “Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of God—asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers. He set on an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God.
For almost 300 years the Jesuit Futurism remained largely inside the RCC but in the 1800s the process of adoption into the Protestants began. There were many steps to this adoption but it really all came to a head with Nelson Darby when he became a strong promoter of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture followed by a one man antichrist; this teaching became the hallmark of Dispensationalist. It was Darby who laid much of the foundation for the present popular removal of Daniel’s 70th week away from history and applied it to a future tribulation after the rapture. Cyrus Ingerson Scofield later adopted the teaching of Darby into his Scofield Reference Bible and this doctrine became firmly established inside the 20th century American Church
These are the facts as I see them from my research.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/6/2010 12:29:15 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
The early Church Fathers did not understand a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9. With few exceptions the understood the 70 weeks to be continuous; some seen the week ending in 70AD but many understood the week ended with the stoning of Stephen, at which time God set aside Israel, enlisted Paul and started building the Church.
For a moment lets assume that the Apostles all knew the truth and the NT is what they 'left the Churches'. There would also have been lots of oral things that would have been 'discussed but not written down'. If that view didn't change for 1500 years then perhaps it was the correct version and later 'discoveries were paths explored but not meant to be followed'. It would seem that what was not contested back then should be viewed as being correct rather than them being from them being 'not quite as bright as we are'.
I'm not saying there was a huge number in the early Church but the ones that were there were very dedicated (and correct) if it included being a 'teacher, etc'. Look at the many doctrines that branch off on just that one chapter from Daniel. Most (if not all) stem from belief of how the 70 weeks are viewed. I believe they are completed in time and what was determined by the end of that time is what is left to be un-done before eternal life comes to the Earth. The Temple was taken away, Christ will build a new one.
Part of that means a person has to find a way to blend the times given in Revelation with 7 years (from Daniel), it isn't as easy as it sounds and I have yet to read one proposal that can account for the Beast being kept out of Jerusalem for all but 3 1/2 days before his time is over as fitting in a 7 year period. The witnesses would not allow then in, those are the only two Saints on the world during that time.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 10:34:29 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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Excellent research, Bob. 
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 11:40:49 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 416
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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Bob
So when did Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) fulfill the 6 decrees, if this 70th Week is now complete. I don't see them fulfilling any of them.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 2:19:24 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
So when did Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) fulfill the 6 decrees, if this 70th Week is now complete. I don't see them fulfilling any of them.
Maybe that is the point Marv…Israel was given to the end of the 70th week to accomplish all these things, to repent, to fulfill the prophesies and to anoint the Messiah. They failed to do what God had laid out for them to accomplish. Christ was cut off in the mists of the week but they still had 3 ½ years to comply.
At the stoning of Stephen, 3 ½ years later Israel was given one last chance and what did they do; then they put their hands over their ears and began shouting. They rushed at him and dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. His accusers took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:57-58
I think it is not coincidence that Paul is introduced here because with the rejection of Stephen’s finial plea Israel is set aside and the quest for the salvation of the gentile is passed to Paul.
I’m not sure about the direction of my studies here Marv but I’m really starting to get the feeling that the 70th week ended when Israel rejected what God had offered, He had given them to the end of the 70 week to comply and they failed. Kind of like each of us individually, we are given a certain amount of time to accept Christ and if we don’t we are out. In the case of Israel, true Israel will still be saved but that will not occur until the very end of the age.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 2:44:16 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 416
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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Bob
The decree was for them to do them. Not that they should not do them. They have 70 sevens to accomplish the 6 tasks. Since the decree came from the Godhead and Daniel wrote what he was to write. Looks like either Daniel missed the boat and is a false prophet.... But, Christ in Matt 24 states that Daniel is a prophet. Must be right 100 percent of the time. If so, then the 70th Week has not begun as yet. It all depends how you view Daniels writings as being False or True.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 6:29:19 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Marv you are attempting to argue the merits of the 70th week being historical as opposed to being future but it was my intent to disclose to the board what the early church father’s understood about the subject. There are many examples of the thinking that it was historical; for example here is an excerpt from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown…
quote:
Notes for Verse 27
Verse 27. he shall confirm the covenant -- Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa 42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Lu 22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Mal 3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jer 31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full. Contrast Da 11:30, 32, "forsake the covenant," "do wickedly against the covenant." The prophecy as to Messiah's confirming the covenant with many would comfort the faithful in Antiochus' times, who suffered partly from persecuting enemies, partly from false friends (Da 11:33-35). Hence arises the similarity of the language here and in Da 11:30, 32, referring to Antiochus, the type of Antichrist.
with many -- (Isa 53:11 Mt 20:28 Mt 26:28 Ro 5:15, 19 Heb 9:28).
in . . . midst of . . . week -- The seventy weeks extend to A.D. 33. Israel was not actually destroyed till A.D. 79, but it was so virtually, A.D. 33, about three or four years after Christ's death, during which the Gospel was preached exclusively to the Jews. When the Jews persecuted the Church and stoned Stephen (Ac 7:54-60), the respite of grace granted to them was at an end (Lu 13:7-9). Israel, having rejected Christ, was rejected by Christ, and henceforth is counted dead (compare Ge 2:17 with Ge 5:5 Ho 13:1, 2), its actual destruction by Titus being the consummation of the removal of the kingdom of God from Israel to the Gentiles (Mt 21:43), which is not to be restored until Christ's second coming, when Israel shall be at the head of humanity (Mt 23:39 Ac 1:6, 7 Ro 11:25-31 15 Ro 15). The interval forms for the covenant-people a great parenthesis.
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 8:19:58 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Marv, just to make my position clear; I have always been one who seen the 70th week as be future. Suddenly lately it started to have some holes, actually has always had some holes because much of the prophecy we read seems to have many aspects that were historical. As an example much of Mat 24 seems to have already occurred and then there is Revelation and the seals which seem to be largely historical. Then there is Daniel 9:27, which I’ve always understood to be the antichrist that would make a covenant for the finial week. Then Roy started teaching that it was in fact Christ who made the covenant; at first I rejected that but now I agree. This opened up the question of the finial week to me, so I started to do research just to see when that theology came onto the scene. What I have posted is some of the things that I find that seem to ring true.
Another passage of scripture which I’ve always seen to be future has been 2 Thessalonians 2:4; this was always the antichrist setting in a new temple in the future. We have always had the argument about the new temple, some saying it would not happen and some saying that the temple of the future was in the hearts of believers, so this has always been an argument difficult to flesh out.
Now let me ask you a question…has there ever been in the past a person or several persons setting in the house of God whom have called themselves god or that they take Gods place on earth, or anyone with references to their deity. Anyone whom has the authority to grant salvation or condemn one to hell, a person whom is supreme without error? I think there has been and this is what Luther was referring to.
At this point I am only exploring some of these inconsistencies but I am starting to see another possibility.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 8:29:36 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 64
Joined: 1/6/2008
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Half the week is not over. In fact it hasn't even begun. For one thing the 70th week of Daniel is a literal period of 7 years. The word translated as week in the KJV simply means a group of seven. In this case it means 7 years instead of seven days. If you'll recall, in Daniel 9 when talking about the 70th week he said, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation the cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate even until the consumation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate,"
The "he" here is the antichrist. The last 7 years of world history will begin with the antichrist signing a peace pact or "covenant" with many countries. It will be kind of a religious peace treaty which which is why it is sometimes called a "holy covenant". It will bring a semblance of peace in the mid-east which will allow the jews and muslims and christians to live together in peace. This will be accepted world-wide as a wonderful thing because the world will see it as averting a nuclear holocaust as things heat up in the mid-east with Iran getting nuclear weapons, etc. So the antichrist will go back to his own country, (Russia) a hero. But because it doesn't work out and the different factions continue to fight with each other and with the US and GB getting in on the act and sending their armies to the mideast, the antichrist becomes really angry and heads back to Isreal and wipes out the armies of the west. Then he breaks the covenant and "causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease". Meaning he forbids the jews and others to make religious sacrifices anymore and forbids religious worship. This starts the last 3 1/2 years of history known as the great tribulation. The abomination of desolation is set up in the temple: "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." This is the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet" that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24. And as Jesus said, this signals the start of the great tribulation. The antichrist sets himself up as God and tells the whole world to worship him, and everybody has to recieve his mark in their right hand or in their forehead or they won't be able to buy or sell anything. So those who don't want to worship the AC because they know and love Jesus, the ones who keep the commandments of God and have the terstimony of Jesus, will have to flee into the wilderness during this time of great persecution. Where they have a place prepared of God that they should feed them there during the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation.
"even until the consummation" means even until the end when Jesus comes back to rescue and resurrect His saints of all ages, which happens immediately after the great tribulation as Jesus said.
"And that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" is talking about the wrath of God which is going to be poured out upon the wicked people who took the mark of the beast and worshipped the antichrist. This wrath of God happens after the rapture and resurrection of the just.
So the 7 years or the one week of Daniel 9 is a continuous 7 years with out any gap between the first half and the second half. Since we know that no peace pact or covenant has been signed yet we know that the first half of the 7 years hasn't started yet.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/7/2010 10:15:01 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Interesting...here is what a few of the more popular commentary's say about Dan 9:27.
Geneva Bible Comments (Calvin) (1599)
9:27 And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
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Matthew Henry's comments (1662-1714)
it was to atone for our sins, and to purchase life for us, that he was cut off. [6."> He must confirm the covenant with many. He shall introduce a new covenant between God and man, a covenant of grace, since it had become impossible for us to be saved by a covenant of innocence. This covenant he shall confirm by his doctrine and miracles, by his death and resurrection, by the ordinances of baptism and the Lord�s supper, which are the seals of the New Testament, assuring us that God is willing to accept us upon gospel-terms. His death made his testament of force, and enabled us to claim what is bequeathed by it. He confirmed it to the many, to the common people; the poor were evangelized, when the rulers and Pharisees believed not on him. Or, he confirmed it with many, with the Gentile world. The New Testament was not (like the Old) confined to the Jewish church, but was committed to all nations.
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John Wesley's comments (1703-1791)
9:27 He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, 1,By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. 2, By his preaching. 3, By signs and wonders. 4, By his holy life. 5, By his resurrection and ascension. 6, By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.
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Adam Clarke (1762-1832)
From the coming of our Lord, the third period is to be dated, viz., "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week," that is seven years, ver. 27.
This confirmation of the covenant must take in the ministry of John the Baptist with that of our Lord, comprehending the term of seven years, during the whole of which he might be well said to confirm or ratify the new covenant with mankind. Our Lord says, "The law was until John;" but from his first public preaching the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation, commenced.
These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty- three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter.
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Jamieson Fausset and Brown (1871)
9:27. he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isaiah 42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luke 22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Malachi 3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jeremiah 31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full. Contrast Daniel 11:30,32, "forsake the covenant," "do wickedly against the covenant." The prophecy as to Messiah's confirming the covenant with many would comfort the faithful in Antiochus' times, who suffered partly from persecuting enemies, partly from false friends (Daniel 11:33-35). Hence arises the similarity of the language here and in Daniel 11:30,32, referring to Antiochus, the type of Antichrist. with many--(Isaiah 53:11, Matthew 20:28, 26:28, Romans 5:15,19, Hebrews 9:28). in . . . midst of . . . week--The seventy weeks extend to A.D. 33. Israel was not actually destroyed till A.D. 79, but it was so virtually, A.D. 33, about three or four years after Christ's death, during which the Gospel was preached exclusively to the Jews.
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Nave's Topical Bible (1900)
Lists Daniel 9:27 in relation to the New Covenant of Christ.
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It seems they all think it to be the Christ that made the 7 year covenant.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/8/2010 12:08:22 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 416
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Marv, just to make my position clear; I have always been one who seen the 70th week as be future. Suddenly lately it started to have some holes, actually has always had some holes because much of the prophecy we read seems to have many aspects that were historical. As an example much of Mat 24 seems to have already occurred and then there is Revelation and the seals which seem to be largely historical. Then there is Daniel 9:27, which I’ve always understood to be the antichrist that would make a covenant for the finial week. Then Roy started teaching that it was in fact Christ who made the covenant; at first I rejected that but now I agree. This opened up the question of the finial week to me, so I started to do research just to see when that theology came onto the scene. What I have posted is some of the things that I find that seem to ring true.
Another passage of scripture which I’ve always seen to be future has been 2 Thessalonians 2:4; this was always the antichrist setting in a new temple in the future. We have always had the argument about the new temple, some saying it would not happen and some saying that the temple of the future was in the hearts of believers, so this has always been an argument difficult to flesh out.
Now let me ask you a question…has there ever been in the past a person or several persons setting in the house of God whom have called themselves god or that they take Gods place on earth, or anyone with references to their deity. Anyone whom has the authority to grant salvation or condemn one to hell, a person whom is supreme without error? I think there has been and this is what Luther was referring to.
At this point I am only exploring some of these inconsistencies but I am starting to see another possibility.
In Messiah,
Bob
Bob
Only one person has met that condition. He was Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. It has not happened since then. Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel ..... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Both parts must be fulfilled; When you see standing, Then those in Judea are to Flee.
This did not happen at Christs death, for no one fled to the mountains. Christ did not ascend until 40 days later. His Disciples were instructed to Stay until they were to be filled with the Holy Spirit. So this one is out.
The next possibility is 70 AD. But the Romans were removing the Hebrews out of Israel from 66 AD to about 73 AD. They (Romans) had control of the land. No place for those of Judea to flee. They were already be removed. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD by fire. This fire made it possible for the Gold in the Temple to melt, and thus the soldiers tore the Temple apart to get to this Gold. No one was able to sit or stand in the Temple. So here neither of the two conditions could be met. So this one is out.
Now no Temple since 70 AD, therefore the two conditions cannot be met at anytime. They can only be met by a future Temple being built.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/8/2010 2:13:52 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Marv you ask me if the 6 requirements laid out by Christ in Daniel 9:24 for the nation of Israel had been accomplished by the end of a historical 70th week and I will try to respond.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Dan 9:24
To Finnish the transgression: What does this mean? It would seem the thought here is one of bringing the transgressions of the people to the full; as Christ says: And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (Mat 23:30-32) When they have killed the Messiah they have finally past the point of no return and “Behold your house is left unto you desolate” This fulfilled the Master's prophecy, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21: 43).
To make an end of sin: When Christ made His offering at the cross, the true Sacrifice, He brought an end to the ceremonial sin offerings; Daniel says “He shall cause the sacrifice and oblations to cease”. This is just what happened…there was no more temple sacrifice that had any meaning, God was done with that phase.
To make reconciliation for iniquity: Messiah shed His blood for the redemption of the world; He reconciled the world to Himself. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And He gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. (2Co 5:19)
To bring in everlasting righteousness: The death of Christ would bring righteousness to all that would believe. He saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. (Tit 3:5)
To seal up the visions and the prophecy: Christ in His death at the cross and the rejection of the holy people did seal up the prophecy of the 70th week, but in a specific sense this prophecy, this period of 70 weeks, constitutes the seal of the whole vision of the 2300 year-days. The sealing of the whole vision is additional evidence that the prophecy of Daniel 9 is a continuation of the literal explanation of the vision of Daniel 8.
To anoint the most holy: Once each year the high priest of Israel sprinkled the blood of a bull and a goat on the Mercy Seat in order to make final atonement for the high priest and for Israel; to cleanse the sanctuary of the accumulated sins of the nation over that past year (Leviticus 16). In doing this the high priest was bringing "before the Lord" the evidence that an atoning sacrifice had been made............ that the price for sin ("the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23) had been paid. On the strength of the acceptance of this sacrifice, Israel and the sanctuary were cleansed of sin.
The blood of Christ was either actually or symbolically sprinkled upon the Mercy Seat to fulfill this responsibility upon his death. In this case the blood of anointment was for all who would believe, not just for Israel and it was a finial act of atonement. Many say the blood was actually sprinkled on the seat but we have no proof of this happening.
I think one would have to say…yes they have been accomplished.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/8/2010 2:34:56 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 416
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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Bob
Very Good.
But who are the six tasks for. Christ is not mentioned. Only Daniels people and Daniels holy city and the ones decreed or told to fulfill the six. If Daniels people and holy city have not done these; you have only two choices, One - they are for a future time, or Two - that entire chapter is not inspired.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/8/2010 3:08:18 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Are we reading the first requirement wrong Marv…this seems to be the hang up in this discussion.
To Finnish the transgression: What does this mean? It would seem the thought here is one of bringing the transgressions of the people to the full; as Christ says: And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (Mat 23:30-32) When they have killed the Messiah they have finally past the point of no return and “Behold your house is left unto you desolate” This fulfilled the Master's prophecy, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21: 43).
So the expressed purpose of this decree was for the people of Israel to complete their transgressions in the rejection of Christ. This is exactly what they did.
God didn’t expect anything else; if Israel had accepted Christ the whole history would have been changed but God knew that would not happen, non the less He gave the people the opportunity (7 years) to make their fatal mistake…they were successful.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/8/2010 5:57:37 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1094
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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By the way there are two different renderings of Daniel 9:27…
The KJV of course translates it: “He shall confirm the covenant” and the LXX translates the passage as “One week shall establish the covenant”. There appears to be about equal linguistic support for each rendering…one Hebraist referring to as a fifty-fifty division of determinative evidence. The historic Protestant position of course applies the “he” to be Christ.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 3/9/2010 1:00:39 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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Bob: here's a little "backup" for you:
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=4783597
Daniel 9 is fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and the desolation of Israel. Look what Luke wrote about it:
quote:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (KJV)
It's all becoming much clearer now.
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