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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2007 10:32:33 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
You missed my entire point. Your examples here generally only add words to fill out the sentence, but are not adding concepts that drastically change the meaning of the text.
The word they added in Mt. 19 was "marital", and the one they added in the example I gave was "married, marriage, or marries." In both verses very similar words were added, but in one case you claim it is just to fill out the sentence, and in the other it changes the meaning of the verse entirely? huh?
In Deuteronomy 24 the Hebrew text says that a man divorced his wife when he took dominion over her, which we would say "when he married her." Jewish marriage differed from modern marriage in the sense that they made a betrothal covenant well in advance but lived separately for a time before they actually came together and lived as a couple. This was called the betrothal period. They would be considered husband and wife during this time and were bound by covenant but he did not yet "bâ‛al" her or take dominion over her. This is the point in time however that is described in Deuteronomy 24:1:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house
Your interpretation of this verse totally disregards the grammar of the original text. If you would like to seriously look at the implications of the Hebrew grammar in this verse, I would suggest looking at S.R. Driver's book "A Treatise on the Use of the Tenses in Hebrew and Some Other Syntactical Questions"; his work is considered foundational for any biblical Hebrew scholarship.
I would also suggest that you look at the article that lastblast posted, because it makes a much stronger case for what you are trying to prove without trying to force the text into saying something it doesn't. I think there are some weakness in his argument, but I have respect for his scholarship.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2007 11:41:06 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
You missed my entire point. Your examples here generally only add words to fill out the sentence, but are not adding concepts that drastically change the meaning of the text.
The word they added in Mt. 19 was "marital", and the one they added in the example I gave was "married, marriage, or marries." In both verses very similar words were added, but in one case you claim it is just to fill out the sentence, and in the other it changes the meaning of the verse entirely? huh?
In Deuteronomy 24 the Hebrew text says that a man divorced his wife when he took dominion over her, which we would say "when he married her." Jewish marriage differed from modern marriage in the sense that they made a betrothal covenant well in advance but lived separately for a time before they actually came together and lived as a couple. This was called the betrothal period. They would be considered husband and wife during this time and were bound by covenant but he did not yet "bâ‛al" her or take dominion over her. This is the point in time however that is described in Deuteronomy 24:1:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house
Your interpretation of this verse totally disregards the grammar of the original text.
Really? You keep making these broad accusations without giving any explanation for what grammar I am supposedly disregarding.
The text in Deuteronomy 24 says that a man divorced his wife when he took dominion over her because he found something shameful in her. What part of that are you disputing?
That period of time is in reference to what we in English say "when he married her." Jewish marriage differed from modern marriage in the sense that they made a betrothal covenant well in advance but lived separately for a time before they actually came together and lived as a couple. This was called the betrothal period. Therefore a couple was bound together but not yet "bâ‛al" or married together. They would be considered husband and wife during the betrothal, and were bound by covenant but he did not yet "bâ‛al" her or take dominion over her.
This is the point in time that is described in Deuteronomy 24:1:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house
This man found his wife to be "shameful" or "indecent" when He took dominion over her, which means that she had obviously done the shameful thing prior to him taking possession over her. This is a clear reference to the status of her virginity, unless you have a better interpretation of what "shamefull thing" a man would find in his wife when he married her?
This is the only provision in the Old Covenant Law to give a bill of divorcement to a woman and send her away, which is exactly what Jesus confirmed in the New Testament:
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Matthew 19:7-9 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Jesus not only confirmed that the Old Covenant Law only allowed divorce for premarital fornication, but added that if someone divorced for any other reason and subsequently remarried that they were actually committing adultery because their divorce was invalid and therefore their original marriage still recognized by God as the only true marriage. He also stated in the context of the New Covenant that EVERYONE and WHOEVER divorced and remarried for any reason were guilty of adultery regardless of circumstances:
Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "WHOEVER divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.
Those of us who are not Old Covenant Jews don't have an exception at all, and those who were had one that was essentially an anulment of a covenant based on false pretenses, but also never applied to divorce as it is commonly practiced today. Never, in either covenant, for any group of people, has it not been adultery to engage in the divorces practiced regularly today. It has and always will be adultery to divorce after being fully married and join to another.
I don't need S.R. Driver or any other man to tell me what God's Word says, because I can read it for myself and it is not that complicated. Every literal translation of Deuteronomy 24 says that a man was finding something "indecent" or "shameful" in a woman "WHEN HE MARRIED HER." If that isn't simple enough to understand, Jesus reiterated it when speaking to Old Covenant Jews about Deuteronomy 24, so it should be clear to anyone reading the text without having to look to experts who say it doesn't really mean what it says. That is the error of the Pharisees all over again. The reason that the Old Covenant Laws were so perverted by the time that Jesus came into this realm, was because people had so trusted the precepts and traditions of the Pharisees rather than the Word of God, and now so-called "Christendom" is doing exactly the same thing.
It is exactly this type of modern day Pharisee that adds the word "marital" to the Matthew pasages to dramatically change the meaning of the verse to something that contradicts what God's Word actually says. That person is not translating the text for us, but is rather rewriting it to change its meaning just as the Pharisees did with the Old Covenant scriptures.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 3:24:02 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
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hello benelchi,
I tried to repeat back to you what I thought you were saying. I thought you were saying kind of a double message.
I thought you were not supporting divorce, but since you said that God will uphold subsequent marriages for people, this means that the original divorce must be maintained. Kind of looks like it is condoning the irreconcilable mindset between those two covenantly bound people. An original divorce must be maintained in order to create a situation whereby a man or woman may justify a remarriage.
A divorce is something that must be maintained to work. It is a wall, it is a tear, a split, an irreconcilability, a resignation that nothing will ever work.....a stronghold...
You said you were not for every marriage, but then said God will uphold marriages that were done in rebellion to His word. It sounded like you were saying that the act of legalizing a union made it acceptable in God's eyes....kind of a view of "permissive" will?
I think that making provisions, and saying that God makes these too, is what is wrong with the present ethic problem in christian marriage practice today.
No one seems too concerned about what Jesus said was adultery: marrying another, after divorce, whilst a spouse lives. No one seems to ready to hold our feet to the fire of His Word. He never wanted us to get into adultery. Repentance leads us out of it. We can stay faithful to God and our vows even when a spouse is not. We are not given the "right" to put away people in their sin.
We can seperate, and remain unmarried or be open to reconciliation. We need to honor those unique testimonies of reconciliation, after adultery, after problems, after seperations and divorces. We need to promote the faith for answered prayer as we follow Jesus clear teaching, not find ways around the clear sayings of the Lord.
It is really very very messy how much compromise has been promoted in the name of Jesus, when He made God's view and practice of marriage very clear....not complicated.
We need to repent of our broken covenant mindsets and see what He would have us do to make restitution, or to return to faithfulness to Him.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 3:33:03 AM
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DontBefraidtocare
Posts: 4
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Marry again, God loves ugly. We all sin, Jesus Forgives, follow your heart with compassion. Good Luck.
_____________________________
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
-Guess
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 4:07:46 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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benelchi said:
quote:
The reason I hold this view is that I don't ever see divorce being a right choice when it is used to escape from a marriage, but only when it irreconcilable despite every effort being made to reconcile. Because of my view here I never ever counsel any couple to divorce, in some cases, I will counsel them to separate, and in very extreme cases I might console a legal separation as long as the goal was to work toward reconciliation.
response:
I know you speak from the experience of trying to help people. You say that divorce is never a right choice when it is used to escape a marriage.
I think that you are familiar with the many ways that people escape from others, while all the while making things appear as if they are the innocent one who never "wanted" the divorce. Abuse, adultery, control, lying, overspending, addictions, etc. And don't forget the "quiet" ways people leave others, while acting as if they do not want the divorce: passive aggressive actions, neglect, flirting, pornography-adultery, gossip and slander, smoldering hatred, hating....
and what about just denying that there are any problems. that is a famous way for "not wanting the divorce".....while arranging to make things irreconciliable, and looking innocent of wrongdoing. Oh the ways of human hearts that do not want to suffer.
A divorce is a choice, that takes legal and physical, and financial action. It is a choice. It is escaping the marriage. ( I am not speaking of seperation now). It is escaping the idea that there is a responsibility before God to uphold vows of faithfulness and provision, if possible. It doesn't matter if you are deeply hurting, or you are deeply angry, or bitter, or resentful, or bored, or sinful....divorce is escaping/leaving the marriage.
Irreconcilable in the eyes of whom? Does God say we are irredeemable, at any time before death? Do we know that time is for other people? If He wants us to love and forgive as He does, then He does not want us to set the time limit on reconciliation.That is why he says a woman is bound to her husband until he dies, then she is free to remarry.
I have heard stories of reconciliations after 13, 3, 20, 31, years. God obviously orchestrated them. Sometimes there were even people remarried/divorced in between those years, and sometimes there were natural deaths of "interim" partners. We do not know the timetable of softened hearts from hardened ones.
lastblast said:
What if they don't see themselves as having sinned? Are they living in a state of adultery because they have not "repented" yet?
This is a good question....so many do not see themselves as having sinned, and they not only come into the church but are elevated as an example of God's wonderful restoration, when the "restoration" was taking another into a relationship that Jesus calls adultery!!!! How is this restoration? Isn't the concept of restoration imply bringing something back to its former beauty, and in this case, might imply restitution, reconcilation, repentance and repair, back to obedience to God, and to care for their original stewardship in their families and spouses?
quote:
Even if that is all they are doing, they are better handling this than many pastors. However, I personally believe the church has failed if this is all that is done. They should have been handling this situation as outlined in Mt. 18 before the marriage took place. If a couple in rebellion towards God still chose to marry, they should be welcomed back as unbelievers until there has been clear repentance, and the church should be helping them to walk through that process.
It is good to deal with it as it goes. And that would include correcting mates who are being abusive etc. But how many who have decided to divorce and then later remarry let their leadership know their plans, and "let them in on" any kind of dilemma they have? Are not many individuals today, due to shame, and blame and a fear of what the church might do to condemn, withdrawing, and trying to figure out by themselves what they'll do about the problems?
quote:
Paul taught that we are to put out all who "call themselves brother" who live in unrepentant sin. Why? Because if left alone within the congregation of believers, that sin will GROW...........I think we can both agree this is exactly what has happened in the churches today and why we have such a big mess to deal with now. Instead of "going OUT and making disciples", we have "brought in" the lost, bringing in unrepentant sin, causing the true sheep to stumble and sin by watching the acceptance of unrepentant sin from other attenders/members. sigh........and many people wonder why there has been such a huge departing of people (not the unbeliever, but I'm speaking of those who really love God) from organized churches????
Sad but true. We have not gone out but made ourselves comfortable within and tolerant of sin in the camp, among the "redeemed" that are supposed to be living repentant lifestyles, but too often are lacking in any in depth Bible study about the costs of discipleship.
I think we are so far adrift but we are called to get back to the original intent of God, with no provision for adultery. If we really taught and obeyed God on marriage, people might be able to take a firmer approach with themselves in conforming to God's word. I am sure He would supply the faith and strength to obey Him.
May individuals start to repent for this sin and so find forgiveness and freedom. Also for the condoning you mention benelchi. We can repent and find forgiveness from past condoning of relationships that did not honor God's intentions.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 4:11:25 AM
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DontBefraidtocare
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If the person you married doesn't love you and states it, there is no question to whether you should stay or not, that is obviously a sign from God beyond scripture.
_____________________________
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
-Guess
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 7:53:38 AM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DontBefraidtocare
Marry again, God loves ugly. We all sin, Jesus Forgives, follow your heart with compassion. Good Luck.
If one truly has GOD'S compassion in them, they will love the one they bound themselves to for LIFE-----for better or worse(that is inclusive of all sin), in sickness and in health (even in severe mental illness), for richer or poorer(even if being poor is a result of sin), TIL DEATH DO US PART (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).
You are teaching worldliness, which is opposed to the Gospel of God. Jesus will say one day to those who profess to know His name, yet practice sin: "Depart from me, you worker of iniquity(lawlessness)" Mt. 7:21-24. To tell someone to go again and marry again, when God has called such actions adultery, is to encourage one to sin.........and Jesus said, "woe, to those who cause my little ones to stumble(sin)"............True Godly compassion will lead a person to give counsel that lines up with the heart/Word of God........because we know, it is THERE true life is found.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 7:56:52 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1509
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DontBefraidtocare
If the person you married doesn't love you and states it, there is no question to whether you should stay or not, that is obviously a sign from God beyond scripture.
It is a sign alright. It is a sign that the spouse who says such a thing NEEDS JESUS. If we HAVE JESUS, why should we then want to leave such a person? Should we not desire to minister LOVE to that person who does not have the love of Christ----the one God joined us to?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 9:08:12 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DontBefraidtocare
Marry again, God loves ugly. We all sin, Jesus Forgives, follow your heart with compassion. Good Luck.
Romans 6:15-23 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
1 John 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
It is not wise to live in rebellion against God, and He doesn't forgive those who do not repent of their sin and make him their Lord. True children of God are evident by the fact that we have had our hearts regenerated by his Spirit so we do make Him our Lord and do not find His commandments to be burdensome anymore. Scripture also says that those who practice what He forbids are not His children, have never known Him, and are children of the devil destined to spend eternity with their father in flames. Therefore it is wise not to follow our own wicked unregenerate hearts, but rather to make him our Lord and allow His Spirit to renew our hearts and make us right with Him.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2007 7:12:07 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
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From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
The righteousness of God is above evert the words spoken by Jesus Christ.
Come again?
Dear Laura,
A small correction needs to be made. The righteousness of God is above the words spoken by Jesus Christ. Since the words of Jesus Christ are known to you, you do not accept the same and dispute the same under the pretext of some theological thoughts or under the pretext of translation from the Hebrew language. But the righteousness of God is known everywhere. Even a non-Christian will tell us that we should not divorce our spouses and should not remarry other spouses when our spouses are alive.
Excuse me. Your words make no sense to me as Jesus Christ is God and there is no way to know God's righteousness without knowing Jesus Christ who revealed God through his incarnation and his words. We can't just discount the words of Jesus and then pretend that we know God's righteousness. That is why we keep going back to "what did Jesus say?" and "How do the words of Jesus, who is God, line up with the revealed word of God through Moses and Paul"?
In this thread, we are shouting at the top of our voices that the words of Jesus Christ concering divorce and remarriage should be obyed. I brought the subject of God's righteousness into this thread because people do not accept the words of Jesus Christ. Everyone, even a non-Christinan, will accept the standards of righteousness required by God from us in regard to marriage.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2007 7:28:04 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
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From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hotsaucygma
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
... Please note this truth here. David knew the truth concerning marriage even under the Old Covenant. He got Uriah killed because he knew that David had no right to marry Bathsheba during the life time of Uriah. If divorce had been allowed by God, David would have asked Uriah to divorce his wife because of the sin of adultery committed by David with her and then David could have easily remarried her. Please note that Bathsheba had consented to the act of adultery committed by David with her. If David had forced on her, she could have cried out and resisted the advances made by David. As such, there was justification for Uriah to divorce her on the sole ground of adultery.
I have to disagree with these comments. First of all, how is it decided that this is "truth", I do not see that bibically. I do not recall anywhere in the story of David and Bathsheba that says "Uriah was killed because David knew he had no right to marry Bathsheba during the lifetime of Uriah". It gives no indication that David had marriage in mind at all. It is far more likely, imo, that David (after hearing of Bathsheba's pregnancy) brought Uriah "home" to sleep with his wife so that Uriah would believe the child was concieved druing this time and was his child. When Uriah would not sleep with his wife while his fellow soldiers did not have that same opportunity, David's first plan was foiled, he then tried to get Uriah drunk enough to be less "nobel", however again Uriah did not follow David's "plan". So he had Uriah put into the front lines to be killed. Since Uriah's decision not to sleep with his wife was very public (he slept where all could see he did not go to his wife), everyone would know the child was not her dead husbands, and so at some point David decided to marry Bathsheba.
I also take exception to the comment that Bathsheba "consented" to the adultery. The account does not say whether or not Bathsheba wanted to sleep with David, only that she did. David was King. He "sent" for her, after making inquires as to who she was, even knowing she was a married woman. In those days, did one- especially a "lowly woman" have the right to refuse the King? David held the power in this situation, not Bathsheba, she may have felt that even if she cried out David's men would not come to her assistance against their King. We don't know if she was willing or not, we are not told that.
David's marriage to Bathsheba is blessed by God because he waited until after he had her husband killed, but would not have been if Bathsheba had been divorced or divorced Uriah even to save her life... is that what you believe the Lord would have?
Back to lurking...
It is the plain truth that Kind David got Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba, murdered in the battlefield with the ulterior motive of marrying his wife. Had Uriah been alive, David had no legal right to marry her.
Bathsheba was not raped by David. It was an act of adultery. An act of adultery is committed by the two persons with their mutual consent only. Otherwise, it was an act of rape. If a woman has to protect her honor, she should not go to a place where some man wants to her to come. It is not the power of the man but the tacit approval of the woman.
If divorce had been permitted of God, then David would have simply asked his soldier to divorce her on the ground of adultery committed by them. Punishment for both the crimes i.e. Murder and adultery is the same i.e. death penalty. David would have preferred divorce to murder if he had to marry Bathsheba. It is thus very clearly seen that God did not justify divorce even under the Old Covenant. David's marriage with Bathsheba is an eye opener for us. David conveniently married Bathsheba after her mourning for the death of her husband. Bathsheba became a widow. Then David had got the legal right on her.
This is a very simple truth from the Bible.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2007 11:27:27 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DontBefraidtocare
If the person you married doesn't love you and states it, there is no question to whether you should stay or not, that is obviously a sign from God beyond scripture.
Frequently, people who have been restored to their covenant mate by God have stated that they went through a period of time where they felt and thought that they did not love their mate. They may or may not have said so. But their testimony now is that it was a lie, that was injected by their enemy taking advantage of their fleshly state.
Many times, when people are believing these kinds of lies, rather than obeying what God says, "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder" in regards to marriage, they can "fall" into error and justify divorce, and later, remarriage/adultery to themselves.
We error when we let our humanistic reasoning (self first) guide us to disregard God's clear commands. He did command us about marriage.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2007 6:07:22 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2648
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
went through a period of time where they felt and thought that they did not love their mate. They may or may not have said so. But their testimony now is that it was a lie, that was injected by their enemy taking advantage of their fleshly state.
Many times, when people are believing these kinds of lies, rather than obeying what God says, "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder" in regards to marriage, they can "fall" into error
Sure, this can be true sometimes. If God did not put it together, though, then it is sin to pine for it to be restored. Many on this board have proclaimed this for 2nd marriages. I still believe that too many first marriages are NOT put together by God.
I do agree that some are a Godly matchs and still go through periods of doubt. They need to hold tight and not divorce.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 1:40:07 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
went through a period of time where they felt and thought that they did not love their mate. They may or may not have said so. But their testimony now is that it was a lie, that was injected by their enemy taking advantage of their fleshly state.
Many times, when people are believing these kinds of lies, rather than obeying what God says, "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder" in regards to marriage, they can "fall" into error
Sure, this can be true sometimes. If God did not put it together, though, then it is sin to pine for it to be restored. Many on this board have proclaimed this for 2nd marriages. I still believe that too many first marriages are NOT put together by God.
I do agree that some are a Godly matchs and still go through periods of doubt. They need to hold tight and not divorce.
God works only from the beginning. In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. He is Alpha and Omega. God is not like a man who works abruptly or suddenly. When we say," what God has joined together...", this means that God is already there in the picture, and joins the couple together in the marriage. You cannot say that God was absent at the time of the first marriage and then manifested His presence at the time of subsequent marriages. How can you say like this? Please note that you cannot invoke His presence in the manner you wish. In other words, you cannot invoke His presence only on the occasion of a particular marriage that you choose. Since God was present on the first marriage, it is none but He who has joined the couple in the marriage. The question of His joining the same couple in another marriage i.e. remarriage does not arise at all. God, the Omnipotent One, would have definitely witnessed the remarriage i.e. the unscriptural union.
Maybe, the remarried couple are a Godly match. How can you expect God to join them together in this unscriptural remarriage since He had already joined one of them or both of them on earlier marriages to their original spouses? If God has not joined a remarried couple together through a remarriage, then they have to separate from each other.
Since God had already joined the couple on their first marriage, no man should put them asunder. If a man or a court of law or any institution has put them asunder, the so-called divorce is not valid in the eyes of God. It is not a lie but a truth.
At the time of the first marriage, either the husband or the wife might not have chosen the right life partner. But God had joined them together when they came before Him for marriage. The marriage was consummated and God did approve this marriage. Both of them or one of them might not be a believer or a born-again Christian at the time of their coming together in one flesh. The salvation experience has nothing to do with the marriage covenant.
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 10/1/2007 1:53:23 AM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 6:45:16 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2648
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
When we say," what God has joined together...", this means that God is already there in the picture, and joins the couple together in the marriage. You cannot say that God was absent at the time of the first marriage and then manifested His presence at the time of subsequent marriages. How can you say like this? Please note that you cannot invoke His presence in the manner you wish.
Just because WE say, what God has put together does not mean that He has put it together. If He did not put the first marriage together, we do not invoke it with our worldly attempt at vows.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 10:27:14 AM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 278
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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prophet-india,
quote:
Since God had already joined the couple on their first marriage, no man should put them asunder
Would you please take a moment and flesh out how you interpret God joining two folk together. How do you say He does that? For example, some believe there is only one person created for them on earth and God will lead them to "the one". In this sense, God has put them together. Is this your understanding of this verse as well?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 10:36:09 AM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 915
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: online
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quote:
If divorce had been permitted of God, then David would have simply asked his soldier to divorce her on the ground of adultery committed by them. Punishment for both the crimes i.e. Murder and adultery is the same i.e. death penalty. David would have preferred divorce to murder if he had to marry Bathsheba. It is thus very clearly seen that God did not justify divorce even under the Old Covenant. David's marriage with Bathsheba is an eye opener for us. David conveniently married Bathsheba after her mourning for the death of her husband. Bathsheba became a widow. Then David had got the legal right on her.
David had Uriah murdered so that HE (David) would not be stoned. The punishment for adultery was the same for the guilty male and the female.
Had nothing with whether divorce was legal, approved by God or not. David was saving his own neck and getting what he wanted.
< Message edited by Restored_Heart -- 10/1/2007 11:07:05 AM >
_____________________________
It not that I don't think that the health care system needs reformation, but with the Gov't's track record, I fear that it will be like trying to sculpt a statute of my great-grandmother by using a shotgun.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 11:03:36 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
When we say," what God has joined together...", this means that God is already there in the picture, and joins the couple together in the marriage. You cannot say that God was absent at the time of the first marriage and then manifested His presence at the time of subsequent marriages. How can you say like this? Please note that you cannot invoke His presence in the manner you wish.
Just because WE say, what God has put together does not mean that He has put it together. If He did not put the first marriage together, we do not invoke it with our worldly attempt at vows.
God does not put together just because of our word of mouth or our statement. God puts together the couple when both of them marry each other. How can you say that God did not put the first marriage together? Is the act of God based on your selecting the right type of partner? Is the act of God based on the wrong selection of the partner by you? When a man and a woman come before God and want to marry each other, God does approve this marriage. The first marriage did take place due to the mutual consent of both the husband and the wife. If it took place with the mutual consent of the man and the woman concerned, how can you say that this marriage was not recognized by God.
Without citing any instance or without faulting a spouse during the post-marriage stage, can you argue that God did not put together the man and the woman concerned during their first marriage?
Please remember that there are two stages i.e. pre-marriage stage and post-marriage stage. How do you expect God to act during the pre-marriage stage and during the post-marriage stage?
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 11:14:42 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
prophet-india,
quote:
Since God had already joined the couple on their first marriage, no man should put them asunder
Would you please take a moment and flesh out how you interpret God joining two folk together. How do you say He does that? For example, some believe there is only one person created for them on earth and God will lead them to "the one". In this sense, God has put them together. Is this your understanding of this verse as well?
You know the answer yourself. If a man and a woman decide to marry each other by giving their consent to this marriage, God joins them together. This is a very simple truth which needs no theological interpretation. Yes, there is one person created for the other partner on earth. This does not depend upon the character of a spouse to the marriage covenant. In other words, this does not depend upon the perfections or the imperfections of the spouses concerned. When a man and a woman marry each other, they are made for each other. Adam and Eve were created for each other. Adam did not divorce Eve to marry another woman. Please do not argue here by saying, ''some believe''. Let us argue on the basis of what is written in the Word. The Word of God says in crystal-clear terms that no man should put asunder what God has put together. When you talk about God putting together, it is a single act of God and multiple acts. How can you argue that God did not put together the couple during their first and covenant marriage?
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 10/1/2007 12:10:31 PM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 11:23:06 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
If divorce had been permitted of God, then David would have simply asked his soldier to divorce her on the ground of adultery committed by them. Punishment for both the crimes i.e. Murder and adultery is the same i.e. death penalty. David would have preferred divorce to murder if he had to marry Bathsheba. It is thus very clearly seen that God did not justify divorce even under the Old Covenant. David's marriage with Bathsheba is an eye opener for us. David conveniently married Bathsheba after her mourning for the death of her husband. Bathsheba became a widow. Then David had got the legal right on her.
David had Uriah murdered so that HE (David) would not be stoned. The punishment for adultery was the same for the guilty male and the female.
Had nothing with whether divorce was legal, approved by God or not. David was saving his own neck and getting what he wanted.
For stoning David to death, the presence of Uriah was not required. How could you expect the stoning of David to death for murder or for adultery because he was the King? Who were competent to impose the death penalty on a king?
If David had to save his own neck and to get what he wanted, he would have preferred the divorce of Bethsheba by Uriah on the sole ground of adultery committed by him and Bethsheba. It is thus clearly proved from the life of David that God did not approve divorce during the Old Testament period and that He did not allow the man after His own heart to marry the wife of another man who was living. The same God made it clear to Abimilech also not to touch the wife of another man who was living.
I do not understand how people argue here that God approves the decrees of divorces granted by the courts of law on the basis of lies. How does God allow the separation of a married couple on the basis of a mere paper i.e. a court's order?
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 12:38:21 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 278
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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prophet_india,
quote:
When a man and a woman come before God and want to marry each other, God does approve this marriage. The first marriage did take place due to the mutual consent of both the husband and the wife. If it took place with the mutual consent of the man and the woman concerned, how can you say that this marriage was not recognized by God.
Recognize is merely acknowledging that something exists but that doesn't speak at all to approval. Many things exist in this world without God's approval. Both sides agree on this but in different matters. God does not always give His approval to the particular couple matchup. Even in arranged marriages, the parents wouldn't choose someone for their daughter who had a bad reputation and awful character! So I would be very careful in making a statement as to what God has joined and hasn't joined. We are not always correct in our assessment of this. It was the decision of this man and this woman to join themselves with the other which they are free to do. So who has joined this couple if God did not approve of it? You just can't say that God approves of every male/female marriage that takes place without regard for the circumstances surrounding it.
Think about parents. A man and woman may present themselves to their parents and ask for the parent's blessings over their decision to marry. For several reasons, the parents let them know they do not support this decision and why. They do not approve of this union. They don't give their consent nor agree to it. The "in love" couple run off and get married anyway. Did the parents approve the marriage? No. Is the marriage legal? Yes. Is this marriage recognized? Sure. It's legal but never got approved. Their parents never consented to it.
Once the marriage has taken place, what do most parents do? They suck it up and do what they can to support the new couple. They also bear in mind that those things they saw which led them to believe this wasn't a good situation will come up later and wreak havoc in that marriage. They decide right then to be there for their child because it's going to get real tough. They wish the child had but listened because they didn't want them to get hurt but the deed had been done.
Just because a couple shows up at the altar and marry, doesn't automatically means God gave His consent and agreed to it. This is what is trying to be pointed out. God has given us marriage as the means/method by which a man and woman join themselves to one another, but that doesn't mean He approves of every coupling (joining) that takes part in this institution even though we are free to couple with whomever we choose. This can be seen on a natural level.
A very good friend got involved with this man. As their relationship progressed she began to share some things that led us (her close friends) to believe this man was no good. We tried to talk to her on numerous occassions about this guys character. She married him anyway. We all hoped for the best but we didn't approve of this at all. It was hell for her. She got pregnant and that is an ongoing mess regarding custody. Now she'll tell you she wished she had listened but then no one could tell her anything. Did God approve and give His consent to this union? Hardly, but He didn't stop it from taking place.
As we continue to say here, legality doesn't necessarily mean approval. I don't think anyone is saying God doesn't recognize the marriage but rather it wasn't a marriage that God agreed with and gave His approval to from the beginning. But even in these cases, it is taught that somehow God will work it out. I do believe He shows an abundance of mercy and helps couples but in other cases, the marriage dies. It is not always that there is just major character issues. Soemtimes these unions, which did not receive God's approval, wind up becoming abusive, adulterous, criminal, etc. Many suffer through really horrible consequences as a result of marrying outside the will of God's.
Remember, all thing are permissible but not all things are beneficial. That includes marriage.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 10/1/2007 12:52:09 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 12:53:40 PM
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hotsaucygma
Posts: 5409
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
It is the plain truth that Kind David got Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba, murdered in the battlefield with the ulterior motive of marrying his wife. Had Uriah been alive, David had no legal right to marry her.
What I disagree with as "plain truth" is that David was thinking of marriage at all when he "saw and sent for" Bathsheba. There is nothing that indicates he saw her bathing and thought "I would like to marry this woman", it is far more likely, or at the very least as likely, that he thought "I would like to go to bed with this woman".
quote:
Bathsheba was not raped by David. It was an act of adultery. An act of adultery is committed by the two persons with their mutual consent only. Otherwise, it was an act of rape. If a woman has to protect her honor, she should not go to a place where some man wants to her to come. It is not the power of the man but the tacit approval of the woman.
Again, I disagree. It was not "some man" that sent for her, it was a King. In those days a King did have pretty much ultimate power, even of life or death of their "subjects". Only if Bathsheba felt she had the right to refuse to go to him without any reprisals to her or her husband/family would it possibly be considered "tactical approval", imho.
quote:
If divorce had been permitted of God, then David would have simply asked his soldier to divorce her on the ground of adultery committed by them.
Again, that would only be true if David's original thought was marriage- I do not believe the biblical account says that, and that it is your interpretation of his motives- I interpret them a bit less honorably- at first anyway. The biblical account does not say which of us is correct in our interpretation, or if either of us is for that matter!
quote:
Punishment for both the crimes i.e. Murder and adultery is the same i.e. death penalty. David would have preferred divorce to murder if he had to marry Bathsheba. It is thus very clearly seen that God did not justify divorce even under the Old Covenant. David's marriage with Bathsheba is an eye opener for us. David conveniently married Bathsheba after her mourning for the death of her husband. Bathsheba became a widow. Then David had got the legal right on her.
I agree that David would have preferred divorce to murder if "he had to marry Bathsheba" if he had been thinking of marriage, but I don't know that he was thinking of marriage until he had no other options, and neither do you- neither of us was able to know what was in David's mind. I agre yes, he conveniently married Bathsheba after the mourning period was over and he legally could. However I do not agree that this indicates God was willing to forgive murder more than divorce. David tried to "get away with" his indiscretion with Bathsheba by making her husband sleep with her in a time frame that could convince him that he was the father of her baby, his (David's) plan failed and he had Uriah murdered (possibly because a divorce would take precious time that would give ample proof [the pregnancy] of the adultery?), then married Bathsheba to avoid the penalty of adultery (death/stoning) to himself which would have been set by the law when his adultery bacame obvious (because of her pregnancy).
I would agree that God would not have "justified divorce" under the circumstances in this situation (simply because David saw Bathsheba and wanted [in your interpretation] to marry her and just needed to get rid of that pesky first husband so he could), but I disagree that it is an indication that divorce is never acceptable in God's eyes, and that murder is more forgivable than divorce.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 1:08:18 PM
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hotsaucygma
Posts: 5409
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
For stoning David to death, the presence of Uriah was not required. How could you expect the stoning of David to death for murder or for adultery because he was the King? Who were competent to impose the death penalty on a king?
You don't think anyone is "competent to impose the death penalty on a king", but you say Bathsheba "was not raped" because she gave "tactic approval" simply by going with David's servents when she was sent for- not acknowledging that he had ultimate power to force her to go if she resisted, that she may have felt intimidated and afraid not to go? I do not know if that was the reason Bathsheba went to him, but no one knows if is is or is not.
quote:
I do not understand how people argue here that God approves the decrees of divorces granted by the courts of law on the basis of lies. How does God allow the separation of a married couple on the basis of a mere paper i.e. a court's order?
I for one do not believe God "allows" or excuses divorce on the basis of lies, but am not convinced that it is never allowed or accepted. The seperation of a married couple is not done by a mere piece of paper, it is done with far grater pain and harm than a piece of paper can committ- only another human being is capable of infllicting that kind of damage.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 2:19:13 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 915
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: online
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There was one that was competent to impose justice on the king and that was God. He sent his prophet (I cannot remember right now whether it was Samuel or Nathan). He was chastised for certain. Could God have instructed him to stone David or move the people to carry it out? I think He could have, but I think that God saw further than that - He moved to restore that man, after repentance and also used that man and the woman in the bloodlines of Jesus. That speaks more to God's character than anything.
The relationship was entered into illegitimately, but God redeemed them both and blessed them with Solomon.
_____________________________
It not that I don't think that the health care system needs reformation, but with the Gov't's track record, I fear that it will be like trying to sculpt a statute of my great-grandmother by using a shotgun.
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