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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2008 9:34:54 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
comparing a physically ill spouse to one who is abusive is just absurd. and you know that. if not you need some education of the difference between the two.
No it is not absurd in light of the arguments some use FOR the right to another marriage while one's spouse is still alive. Many argue that it is NOT FAIR to not have companionship, intimacy, friendship, etc, etc, etc.........and that is why they say they believe God is ok with moving on to another person after a divorce. I was addressing the HEART of the issue of "moving on".........
In each instance, one of the marriage partners is NOT having the "normal" things found in a good marriage----they are being "cheated" of these things, so to speak. One, is "cheated" due to a spouse with severe mental/physical illness, while the other is "cheated" out of having a good spouse due to their sinfulness/abuse. The one in an abusive marriage is permitted, some say, to get a new spouse, the other I'm sure most would believe, having a very sick spouse is just their lot in life and that they should learn to be content not to have the spouse they want------after all, they made a commitment, right?
Does God only expect the one with a physically sick spouse to "stick it out" and walk in love towards them, but the other one------ the one with a spiritually sick spouse, can reject that one and move on into a different marriage----with the Lord's blessings on it?
For those who say yes, I think I am reading a whole different Bible than they are.
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2008 10:27:02 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
No it is not absurd in light of the arguments some use FOR the right to another marriage while one's spouse is still alive. Many argue that it is NOT FAIR to not have companionship, intimacy, friendship, etc, etc, etc.........and that is why they say they believe God is ok with moving on to another person after a divorce. I was addressing the HEART of the issue of "moving on".........
In each instance, one of the marriage partners is NOT having the "normal" things found in a good marriage----they are being "cheated" of these things, so to speak. One, is "cheated" due to a spouse with severe mental/physical illness, while the other is "cheated" out of having a good spouse due to their sinfulness/abuse. The one in an abusive marriage is permitted, some say, to get a new spouse, the other I'm sure most would believe, having a very sick spouse is just their lot in life and that they should learn to be content not to have the spouse they want------after all, they made a commitment, right?
Does God only expect the one with a physically sick spouse to "stick it out" and walk in love towards them, but the other one------ the one with a spiritually sick spouse, can reject that one and move on into a different marriage----with the Lord's blessings on it?
For those who say yes, I think I am reading a whole different Bible than they are.
That's a good point, because the only difference between the two situations is whether the other spouse is a lousy partner due to their sin or due to circumstances that are not in their control. In either case it has nothing to do with our responsibility to keep our end of the covenant. How well I adhere to my end of the marriage covenant is totally dependent on me, regardless of my wife's actions or health, and to the extent that I fail I will be totally accountable for failing. Many people try to point their fingers at their spouses shortcomings as though it justifies their failures to keep their marriage covenants, but scripture is clear that each person will give an account for keeping their end regardless of what their spouse has done, and cannot use another person's sin as an excuse to rationalize their own disobedience.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 5:51:54 AM
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car2ner
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A chronically ill spouse does not break a covenant. A chronically sinning spouse breaks the contract and most likely will become dangerous. So remaining single the rest of your life is not exactly living according to the original contract, either...and an dangerous spouse will bring that up against you and your christian walk as well. Even seperated and alone does not live up to this mystical covenant...
BTW, once again just for the record. I believe that marriages are a part of God's plan and done in accordance to His will, should last a lifetime. Also, I used to be in the "death before divorce" camp. I also reread the scriptures and realized it is not as black and white as it once seemed. It is sad that because of man's hard heart that the world suffers, not only in the break up of marriages but in all walks of life.
< Message edited by car2ner -- 5/19/2008 5:59:40 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 7:47:05 AM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
A chronically ill spouse does not break a covenant. A chronically sinning spouse breaks the contract and most likely will become dangerous. So remaining single the rest of your life is not exactly living according to the original contract, either...and an dangerous spouse will bring that up against you and your christian walk as well. Even seperated and alone does not live up to this mystical covenant...
Remaining single IS what the Lord commanded if a woman/man should leave the marital home or marital relationship, so what you said above is against what God spoke in His Word. It appears to be the ONLY concession given by God in the cases where one/both are not honoring their vows in marriage.
And BTW, some people who are chronically ill CAN become dangerous due to their illnesses which can affect the brain's functioning. I'm also curious why you used the term "covenant" when speaking of an ill spouse, but used the word "contract" when speaking of a sinning spouse?
The fact remains, as Sealed has said many times, WE ALL VOW when we enter marriage. I don't see anything in the vows nor Word of God which gives us an "out" of OUR vows
to our spouses................"I" will LOVE in sickness AND health, "I" will love you whether you are rich or poor (most divorces occur over money issues), "I" will love you in good times AND BAD times, "I" will forsake all others (except if I want a divorce and decide to get married to another, then I may even take to myself someone ELSE's spouse!, declaring them MINE)", "I will love you, TIL DEATH DO US PART"
We cannot control how the one God joined us to reacts to the vows THEY are responsible for, but we sure can control how WE live out our vows-----either we can honor them and in so doing, honor the Lord who joined the two as ONE, or we too, can be guilty before the Lord and walk away from the covenant HE put in place and we can then enter into relationships the Lord says are adultery. We can argue all we want as to the "whys' we may forsake our obligations before the Lord, but His Word/judgments stand..............and they will continue to stand irregardless of whether we honor the Lord with our lives or not.
< Message edited by lastblast -- 5/19/2008 7:53:35 AM >
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 10:13:20 AM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
No it is not absurd in light of the arguments some use FOR the right to another marriage while one's spouse is still alive. Many argue that it is NOT FAIR to not have companionship, intimacy, friendship, etc, etc, etc.........and that is why they say they believe God is ok with moving on to another person after a divorce. I was addressing the HEART of the issue of "moving on".........
In each instance, one of the marriage partners is NOT having the "normal" things found in a good marriage----they are being "cheated" of these things, so to speak. One, is "cheated" due to a spouse with severe mental/physical illness, while the other is "cheated" out of having a good spouse due to their sinfulness/abuse. The one in an abusive marriage is permitted, some say, to get a new spouse, the other I'm sure most would believe, having a very sick spouse is just their lot in life and that they should learn to be content not to have the spouse they want------after all, they made a commitment, right?
Does God only expect the one with a physically sick spouse to "stick it out" and walk in love towards them, but the other one------ the one with a spiritually sick spouse, can reject that one and move on into a different marriage----with the Lord's blessings on it?
For those who say yes, I think I am reading a whole different Bible than they are.
i dont really have anything to say to your unusual point of view, except it isnt Biblical. Is a Christian man with cancer really on the same playing field as one who knocks out his wifes teeth? Is his wife really gonna look on that as the same. No.
That's a good point, because the only difference between the two situations is whether the other spouse is a lousy partner due to their sin or due to circumstances that are not in their control.
You dont really think that. If you do....all i can say is....nothing....aint worth my time.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:06:29 PM
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DenimDiva
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I'm going to try to stick with this thread again, but the last few times I have tried, my posts have been overlooked by the opposing viewpoints.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:31:42 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
i dont really have anything to say to your unusual point of view, except it isnt Biblical. Is a Christian man with cancer really on the same playing field as one who knocks out his wifes teeth? Is his wife really gonna look on that as the same. No.
It's one thing to say a viewpoint is not biblical, it is an entirely different thing to actually PROVE it and truly I do look forward to others sharing SCRIPTURE on why they believe as they do. For a Christian, God's Word is how we measure truth vs feeling/ human reasonings. That HAS to be what guides us in our actions. If we do not look to His Word for direction, but instead rely upon what we "think/feel" or by asking popular opinion, we can easily be led astray from what is God's Best and right into sin.
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:34:51 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I'm going to try to stick with this thread again, but the last few times I have tried, my posts have been overlooked by the opposing viewpoints.
DD, I looked in the previous 4 pages and didn't see any posts by you. I think maybe you are thinking of your posts in the divorce thread. 
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:48:53 PM
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car2ner
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quote:
And BTW, some people who are chronically ill CAN become dangerous due to their illnesses which can affect the brain's functioning. I'm also curious why you used the term "covenant" when speaking of an ill spouse, but used the word "contract" when speaking of a sinning spouse?
O.k> once again since you don't remember. I call it a contract because I do not believe that a union outside of God's will is a covenant simply because it is the first union. "Oh well God, although You didn't want us to do this we did anyhow and now we expect you to bless it because it is a covenant in your eyes"> Hmmm, now you want God to bless a sinful act.
I do not have statistics so I am speaking from my personal observation. Unions with extremely hurtful spouses are made from overlooking and making excuses for red flags before the marriage. I believe that most couples in this situation would not have to face the pain of these divorces if they had paid attention to God's warnings in the first place.
This is differant than a covenant marriage facing hardships, illness being only one hardship.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 4:12:04 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
O.k> once again since you don't remember. I call it a contract because I do not believe that a union outside of God's will is a covenant simply because it is the first union. "Oh well God, although You didn't want us to do this we did anyhow and now we expect you to bless it because it is a covenant in your eyes"> Hmmm, now you want God to bless a sinful act.
I do not have statistics so I am speaking from my personal observation. Unions with extremely hurtful spouses are made from overlooking and making excuses for red flags before the marriage. I believe that most couples in this situation would not have to face the pain of these divorces if they had paid attention to God's warnings in the first place.
This is differant than a covenant marriage facing hardships, illness being only one hardship.
According to your standards, how could ANYONE know if they were in a "covenant" marriage vs. a contract?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 4:37:16 PM
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DenimDiva
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From the divorce thread:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
But a divorce would not necessarily change the heart, so there would be no real repentance.
If someone got to the point of getting out of an adulterous union, their heart WOULD be towards God, no? In a society where people come and go in marriage----especially in professing Churches, to get out of a "marriage" God has declared adultery, but many churches support, would indicate such a person would be following God, not man, so their heart WOULD be repentant...........it does not mean they would be "happy" having to leave such a relationship though. Many things we do in repentance do not bring us "happy" feelings, but they bring us peace with God.
So if they remarry after divorce they should divorce their second spouse. (I hope I'm not misunderstanding you.)
I'm trying to look at this from the viewpoint of a new Christian or a Christian who has never been taught anything about divorce and remarriage.
If they still have feelings for their second spouse, then what good has divorce done? They are now lusting after someone they were once married too. Lust = adultery. They are still continuing to commit adultery.
So now you have a marriage that probably still isn't living up to Christian standards (the first marriage). Two Christians who are in love but now their marriage is over (the second marriage.) Any children from either marriage are now living in single parent homes.
Why is the first marriage right and the first divorce sinful and the second marriage sinful and the second divorce right?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 4:45:38 PM
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hnt
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quote:
Why is the first marriage right and the first divorce sinful and the second marriage sinful and the second divorce right?
I would assume because the second marriage - wasn't a marriage. It was adultry, and the second divorce really isn't a divorce .... since there was no marriage to begin with. You do the divorce proceedings because of the law of the land to SHOW you are obeying God. Its some formal show of repentance or something such thing.
That to me doesn't make any sense either. I mean WHY would God need a formal divorce...that is more for the world than God. God can see in your heart and he knows. He doesn't need the judge to sign papers for proof.
I'm not so sure I agree with this of course - just grasping what I think I'm reading thus far.
I think you have a point about Lust.  Never thought about that portion before, and it does make alot of sense!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 5:39:25 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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I'm trying to look at this from the viewpoint of a new Christian or a Christian who has never been taught anything about divorce and remarriage.
If they still have feelings for their second spouse, then what good has divorce done? They are now lusting after someone they were once married too. Lust = adultery. They are still continuing to commit adultery.
wow. you made an excellent point there. and you pointed our clearly why it isnt so cut and dried. excellent post
So now you have a marriage that probably still isn't living up to Christian standards (the first marriage). Two Christians who are in love but now their marriage is over (the second marriage.) Any children from either marriage are now living in single parent homes.
AGAIN, an excellent point. and proving it isnt as easy as it seems to some...........
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 5:51:26 PM
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hnt
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I understand where you are coming from in that last post Tater.
LOL I will make another assumption!
I would assume lust and the children are now consquences of your bad actions to begin with.
That's just a a shot in dark!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 8:54:15 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
I understand where you are coming from in that last post Tater.
LOL I will make another assumption!
I would assume lust and the children are now consquences of your bad actions to begin with.
That's just a a shot in dark!
YES. now what of the children born to those divorced and remarried? is the Mom to leave THOSE kids with DAD, (they are the result of sinful relations according to some)......what do you do with those kids?
drag them away from the only Daddy they have known, who is often a wonderful husband and father, BACK to the first husband. how likely is he to accept them even if he accepted her back which is so very unlikely? so...what do you with em? Demolish a home AGAIN ?? which of course lessenes the chances that those kids will have successfull marriages? as we can see, it isnt as cut and dried and those who toss out ONE or two verses of Scripture would have it. Say you have a child born in your second marriage. "Raise up a child in the way he should go"....well how do you raise that child when you've yanked him from Dad and returned to hubby no 1......the whole scenario would be one of MORE sin, failure, children destroyed emotionally........I dont for one minute think God expects this.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:04:24 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
quote:
Why is the first marriage right and the first divorce sinful and the second marriage sinful and the second divorce right?
I would assume because the second marriage - wasn't a marriage. It was adultry, and the second divorce really isn't a divorce .... since there was no marriage to begin with. You do the divorce proceedings because of the law of the land to SHOW you are obeying God. Its some formal show of repentance or something such thing.
Pretty much correct. Since Jesus said that the second marriage after a divorce was adultery, then by definition it was not a legal marriage. Adultery means that this person is having sexual relations with someone other than their spouse while being married to another. Obviously then if God regards it as an adulterous affair then it was never a marriage and divorce is not an issue.
Because man has usurped God's authority and made himself the arbitrator of what is or isn't a legal marriage, and changed the rules away from what God said, then yes it is necessary to legally undo the false marriage to bring the legal status back into compliance with God's standards. It is no different than in places where homosexual marriage is permitted and a couple wants to repent of that union.
quote:
That to me doesn't make any sense either. I mean WHY would God need a formal divorce...that is more for the world than God. God can see in your heart and he knows. He doesn't need the judge to sign papers for proof.
Nobody ever said God needed it, but in an ungodly culture it makes sense to bring ones legal status back into harmony with God's standard.
quote:
LOL I will make another assumption!
I would assume lust and the children are now consquences of your bad actions to begin with.
That's just a a shot in dark!
Yes, sin creates all sorts of problems. Should a homosexual couple who had children together (artificially), stay together after they realize that their relationship is forbidden by God? If not, then why should a couple that He says is adulterous?
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:06:14 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
hope I am not violating rules here. but this doesnt relate to MY marriage. My mother did become violent in the days as she was dying. She was oxygen deprived and would hit, kick, throw things at us. Now do you think my wonderful Godly father, married to her for 50 years. regarded her in the same light as a woman who had an abusive spouse does? if so your theology is lacking ....sadly. and your heart is in critical condition!!
Tater, you are not getting what I am saying. Your father sounds like he had EXACTLY the right heart towards your mother, if he loved her and did not forsake her due to her diminished mental capacity towards the end of her life. I personally know of people who DID forsake their spouses because of medical conditions beyond their control------because life got too hard for them and they just wanted a "normal" marriage, so they divorced the "sick" one and moved on.
I also know of people who have abusive spouses and they see them as "sick"------they don't see them as it appears you do---as people who deserve to be cast aside with no hope of restoration, with no hope that their spouse will continue to love and pray for them while they are in sin............
These spouses see their wayward/sinning spouse as spiritually sick and do not believe it is the Lord's will to give up on them, nor do they believe they are free to "move on" because their spouse is spiritually "sick". Like I said, if there are people who think it "good" in the Lord's sight to forsake permanently those who are sick (spiritually OR physically), then they are reading a different bible than I am...........because I just don't see that.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:15:42 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
So if they remarry after divorce they should divorce their second spouse. (I hope I'm not misunderstanding you.)
I'm trying to look at this from the viewpoint of a new Christian or a Christian who has never been taught anything about divorce and remarriage.
If they still have feelings for their second spouse, then what good has divorce done? They are now lusting after someone they were once married too. Lust = adultery. They are still continuing to commit adultery.
So now you have a marriage that probably still isn't living up to Christian standards (the first marriage). Two Christians who are in love but now their marriage is over (the second marriage.) Any children from either marriage are now living in single parent homes.
Why is the first marriage right and the first divorce sinful and the second marriage sinful and the second divorce right?
If a person marries after a divorce, the Lord Himself says they are committing adultery (having unlawful relations with someone who is not your spouse). So, in the Lord's own words, He does not see them as married, joined by Him as One flesh----because they already belong to another. To divorce, is to forsake the adultery one is living in.
To forsake a relationship does not mean that all feelings will be erased. One could say the exact same things about ANY illicit relationship. What good is it to forsake that relationship when there are still feelings involved? That type of reasoning does not fit with Christian obedience. Most of us know that as we submit ourselves to the Lord, walking obediently before Him, that our emotions/thoughts,etc, will come in line with God's Will AFTER we obey.
As for why the first marriage is right and not the second, because Jesus said so. He is the one who calls the second marriage adultery (and so does Paul in Rom. 7:2-3). Why is the first divorce sinful, but not the second? Because the first divorce was tearing apart a union that GOD joined together. The second divorce is not sinful because it is a separating of what man put together sinfully and there is no biblical evidence that God ever joins such a union while one has a living first spouse (if the marriage was a first/lawful marriage for BOTH parties).
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 1:10:02 AM
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DenimDiva
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
If a person marries after a divorce, the Lord Himself says they are committing adultery (having unlawful relations with someone who is not your spouse). So, in the Lord's own words, He does not see them as married, joined by Him as One flesh----because they already belong to another. To divorce, is to forsake the adultery one is living in.
To forsake a relationship does not mean that all feelings will be erased. One could say the exact same things about ANY illicit relationship. What good is it to forsake that relationship when there are still feelings involved? That type of reasoning does not fit with Christian obedience. Most of us know that as we submit ourselves to the Lord, walking obediently before Him, that our emotions/thoughts, etc., will come in line with God's Will AFTER we obey.
Well, the heart of that issue would still be lust aka adultery. The person is still committing adultery therefore they are still in sin.
quote:
As for why the first marriage is right and not the second, because Jesus said so. He is the one who calls the second marriage adultery (and so does Paul in Rom. 7:2-3). Why is the first divorce sinful, but not the second? Because the first divorce was tearing apart a union that GOD joined together. The second divorce is not sinful because it is a separating of what man put together sinfully and there is no biblical evidence that God ever joins such a union while one has a living first spouse (if the marriage was a first/lawful marriage for BOTH parties).
Are you saying that God joined together all first marriages?
I know a lot of marriages where God isn't even invited to the wedding ceremony, let alone the marriage.
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