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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 3:40:38 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1612
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Cindy- there are people getting married all the time who have no business being married to each other. How can it be a covenant marriage if God didn't join them together?
If two people are free to marry each other, whose to say "they have no business being married"? Do you realize the amount of people who married each other and the first years of their marriage was pure hell and they STUCK IT OUT anyways..............and then found that God did incredible things with them AFTERWARDS? Some have LONGER periods of hell, so to speak, yet, when they honor their marriage (whether the other one does or not) many times they will see the fruit of their faithfulness in honoring what they vowed before the Lord............sometimes in their own situations, sometimes in the lives of their children, sometimes in the lives of those who lives are affected watching their faithfulness. Who are we to say that the one God joined us to is not for HIS eternal purposes and not our temporal "happiness"? Not I.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 5:33:53 PM
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AmyMarie
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Isn't it said that if two people enter marriage with pre-existing conditions or it is entered into inveigled by deceit or fraud it was never valid in the first place? What about the intent to withold personal information that will in the near future disrupt the partnership? (such as a criminal background, children out of wedlock or serious mental problems) I understand, also, that God wanted us to keep our vows and 'till death do us part'.......but not to the point where death might come from the hand of your own spouse, right? If re-marriage is so incorrect and sinful, then why are second-marriage ceremonies being performed in the church and annulments acceptable?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 5:34:30 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 757
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
i dont really have anything to say to your unusual point of view, except it isnt Biblical. Is a Christian man with cancer really on the same playing field as one who knocks out his wifes teeth? Is his wife really gonna look on that as the same. No.
It's one thing to say a viewpoint is not biblical, it is an entirely different thing to actually PROVE it and truly I do look forward to others sharing SCRIPTURE on why they believe as they do. For a Christian, God's Word is how we measure truth vs feeling/ human reasonings. That HAS to be what guides us in our actions. If we do not look to His Word for direction, but instead rely upon what we "think/feel" or by asking popular opinion, we can easily be led astray from what is God's Best and right into sin.
And I believe when it comes to the "badness" or degree of a spouse sinning, we go by how deeply we allow ourselves to stay offended. I believe that is the heart and soul of the abuse question. We do have "our limits" and we then tell God what we will or won't put up with and what we will do about it.
It is what we think/feel, or majority vote, that guides many, many people to what to do with a spouse that offends. I see that on these boards, where by someone has a serious marriage challenge, and they look for advice and they go by the majority, which might not be biblical at all.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 5:51:28 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 757
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
No it is not absurd in light of the arguments some use FOR the right to another marriage while one's spouse is still alive. Many argue that it is NOT FAIR to not have companionship, intimacy, friendship, etc, etc, etc.........and that is why they say they believe God is ok with moving on to another person after a divorce. I was addressing the HEART of the issue of "moving on".........
In each instance, one of the marriage partners is NOT having the "normal" things found in a good marriage----they are being "cheated" of these things, so to speak. One, is "cheated" due to a spouse with severe mental/physical illness, while the other is "cheated" out of having a good spouse due to their sinfulness/abuse. The one in an abusive marriage is permitted, some say, to get a new spouse, the other I'm sure most would believe, having a very sick spouse is just their lot in life and that they should learn to be content not to have the spouse they want------after all, they made a commitment, right?
Does God only expect the one with a physically sick spouse to "stick it out" and walk in love towards them, but the other one------ the one with a spiritually sick spouse, can reject that one and move on into a different marriage----with the Lord's blessings on it?
For those who say yes, I think I am reading a whole different Bible than they are.
That's a good point, because the only difference between the two situations is whether the other spouse is a lousy partner due to their sin or due to circumstances that are not in their control. In either case it has nothing to do with our responsibility to keep our end of the covenant. How well I adhere to my end of the marriage covenant is totally dependent on me, regardless of my wife's actions or health, and to the extent that I fail I will be totally accountable for failing. Many people try to point their fingers at their spouses shortcomings as though it justifies their failures to keep their marriage covenants, but scripture is clear that each person will give an account for keeping their end regardless of what their spouse has done, and cannot use another person's sin as an excuse to rationalize their own disobedience.
SealedEternal
I completely agree with the bolded. I believe that failure to see this truth is what takes the average believer with "spousal problems" right down the lane to disobedience.
You can see this kind of thing on many of the posts in the marriage forum. Lots of blaming and justification for the future sin of the "innocent" one or "offended" one. Take care that we let NOTHING stop us each from obeying God's commands and keeping our end of the covenant we have entered into.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 5:54:18 PM
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AmyMarie
Posts: 17
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: AmyMarie
If re-marriage is so incorrect and sinful, then why are second-marriage ceremonies being performed in the church and annulments acceptable?
I had wondered that same thing. However there are so many things that go on in the church that have nothing to do with God or are in direct violation of His Word..... so I decided not to bring that up. 
I understand totally, but, try to tell that to someone who has been brought up knowing that if such things are acceptable, who is to say that what they are doing is sinful? Especially in God's house and in his eyes?
If you marry a convicted child molestor and did not know it because they witheld that information, you are to stay married with the chance that you are putting your own child in danger? Just an example.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 5:56:27 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2566
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
God is not the author of confusion, but we know who is. What you are saying is what the Lord rebukes: "every man does what is right in HIS OWN sight".................the "it is between God and the couple" is a trigger phrase for that mindset. It is chaos and leads many to believe that God has NOT spoken and leaves it up for them to decide----even though their decisions cause OTHER people to sin and such behaviour causes sin to GROW in the professing Body of Christ. This very mindset, car2ner, is why we are in the crisis we are in now concerning the destruction of the family as God created it.
Chaos also comes from starting a union that should never have occured. In your view, that would be any union past the first one. The chaos is not God's doing. It is our own doing. Having any marriage ceremony outside of God's will is just as much "every man does what is right in his own sight". This is where the crisis comes from. That and not understanding how to get along, lack of self-control and a whole host of other sins.
NOone here has advocated that it is all about finding happiness. If they have I have missed it. There are several chapters about having Joy when you follow God's will so we know He is not just about suffering. Indeed, there are good God's will marriages that go through the fire! I pray that they hold on with all they have! Years down the road they celebrate double digit anniversaries with the Joy of the Lord in their marriages. Noone is denying that either.
_____________________________
bungalow time http://www.car2ner.2ya.com (my blog)http://car2ner.imagekind.com/ (my portfolio)
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 7:59:33 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1612
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quote:
Chaos also comes from starting a union that should never have occured. In your view, that would be any union past the first one.
No, it could be one's first marriage----if they married a divorced person. Since they were in actuality committing adultery with another person's spouse, "chaos" can be started in one's first "marriage".............making those who witness a person entering into a lawful SECOND marriage (because this time they marry someone never married before) think they are going "in and out of marriage", while in actuality they were first in adultery, now in a lawful marriage. Chaos can start at the very beginning if one's foundation is wrong.
quote:
The chaos is not God's doing. It is our own doing. Having any marriage ceremony outside of God's will is just as much "every man does what is right in his own sight". This is where the crisis comes from. That and not understanding how to get along, lack of self-control and a whole host of other sins.
Are you saying that only "saved" people's marriages are valid in the sight of God-----meaning He only joins believers as One Flesh?
quote:
NOone here has advocated that it is all about finding happiness.
Now that is just plain untrue, car2ner. MANY have argued that God wants them to be happy in a marriage and that it is NOT His will to be with a person who is sinful, but that He allows them to find another who is a "better" spouse.
quote:
Joy when you follow God's will so we know He is not just about suffering .
And there is scripture that tells us that sin is fun...........for a season. So some that are having "joy" can in fact be confusing the enjoyment of sin, thinking it is joy in following the Lord's Will. This is where the Word of God is needed to discern which is which, not some "voice" which leads in a different direction than God's Word leads us.
quote:
Indeed, there are good God's will marriages that go through the fire! I pray that they hold on with all they have! Years down the road they celebrate double digit anniversaries with the Joy of the Lord in their marriages. Noone is denying that either.
Again, how do you differentiate the difference? How does a HUMAN being possibly think that they can discern which marriages God joined together and which He did not APART FROM HIS WORD?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 8:10:28 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1612
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AmyMarie
Isn't it said that if two people enter marriage with pre-existing conditions or it is entered into inveigled by deceit or fraud it was never valid in the first place? What about the intent to withold personal information that will in the near future disrupt the partnership? (such as a criminal background, children out of wedlock or serious mental problems) I understand, also, that God wanted us to keep our vows and 'till death do us part'.......but not to the point where death might come from the hand of your own spouse, right? If re-marriage is so incorrect and sinful, then why are second-marriage ceremonies being performed in the church and annulments acceptable?
Does God say that those types of marriages are invalid or does man say that? Why are second marriages being performed in churches today? Good question. They used not to be unless they were widows/widowers that were marrying. I recently read a study on marriage trends, then and now, out of the Netherlands. In 1885, 0.84% of remarriages that took place included at least one divorced person..................in 2007, over 90% of remarriages included at least one divorced person. I'm sure the U.S. stats are not much different.
Answer me this question: why are so many churches today marrying people into second "unions" when Jesus said doing such is adultery? How can many pastors in good conscience marry people when the first spouses WANT their marriage restored? This is what many are doing today. Is this God? No, I don't think so. Most of the "professing" church has gone FAR AWAY from God. I am reading the book of Jeremiah right now, and boy, do I see so many similarities to our present culture................READ the mind, heart, words of God to such a nation and tell me that His favor is upon it.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 9:22:37 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2991
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AmyMarie
If re-marriage is so incorrect and sinful, then why are second-marriage ceremonies being performed in the church and annulments acceptable?
because most pastors, churches, denominations, bible scholars, etc do not believe the same way as a very small but vocal handful of users on crosswalk
_____________________________
[Low-Carb] Chocolate Peanut Butter Cheesecake
Photoblogging my life
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 10:01:10 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2130
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: AmyMarie
If re-marriage is so incorrect and sinful, then why are second-marriage ceremonies being performed in the church and annulments acceptable?
because most pastors, churches, denominations, bible scholars, etc do not believe the same way as a very small but vocal handful of users on crosswalk
I would add that many of these pastors, bible scholars, etc... have put a great deal of time studying the bible and looking for answers to this question, and still don't agree with this very small but vocal handful of users on crosswalk. Most would see what this group teaches as almost heretical.
Here is what they actually believe:
1) All "covenant" marriages causes both spouses to be bound to that marriage for life as long as both spouses live regardless of adultery, abandonment, divorce, remarriage, whether either spouse was or is a believer, whether divorce happened before or after conversion, etc... A marriage is defined as a valid "covenant" marriage if both spouses have never been in a prior "covenant" marriage.
2) "Any spouse that is remarried (according to the state) while still being bound by a "covenant" marriage to someone else will go to Hell unless they in repentance abandon the relationship or their original spouse dies. Those who have abandoned such a relationship are strongly encouraged to pursue a legal divorce as an acknowledgment that they have truly repented."
Here are some scripture passages that stand in contradiction to the above statements.
"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the d8ivorced woman commits adultery." Mt. 5:31-32
"Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Mt. 19:8-9
"But if the unbelievers leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? How do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" 1 Co 7:15-16
"If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate a certificate of divorces, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as in inheritance." Du. 24:1-4
===================================
For the record, here is a history of the linguistic gymnastics required to arrive at a statement that they would agree fairly represented their beliefs.
Any spouse that is remarried [(according to the state)] while still being bound by a "covenant" marriage to someone else will go to Hell unless they [(legally)] divorce [in repentance ][abandon the relationship] or their original spouse dies. [Those who have abandoned such a relationship are strongly encouraged to pursue a legal divorce as an acknowledgment that they have truly abandoned the relationship [repented.]]
"(According to the state)" was added because Keepingfaith had objected to the idea that a remarriage even existed. Because such a marriage is clearly recognized by the state, I added this clarification so that her objection could be addressed.
"legal" was added because keepingfaith contended that there was no divorce because the marriage never existed. I added this because the state does recognize the marriage and requires a state recognized divorce to resolve it i.e a legal divorce.
"(legal) divorce" was changed to "abandon the relationship" in the sentence about "Hell" because of lastblast's objection i.e. she stated that abandoning the relationship didn't require divorce.
The last sentence was added because lastblast said that (legal) divorce should be an acknowledgment that the relationship was abandoned.
Added "in repentance" to clearly indicate why the relationship was being abandoned, and changed the last "abandoned the relationship" to "repented" for that same reason. (in order to satisfy Keepingfaith's objection. )
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 10:37:51 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
because most pastors, churches, denominations, bible scholars, etc do not believe the same way as a very small but vocal handful of users on crosswalk
Nor do they believe what most of the early church believed, nor what most churches believed/practiced until the mid 1900's when divorce/remarriage starting flooding the churches. Before that time, MOST churches would not marry divorced persons. I guess we are more "enlightened" now..................and due to this "enlightenment", our families are being destroyed.
The "floodgates" were opened when traditional marriage was chucked out the window...........what we are seeing in the news and has many Christians up at arms (gay marriage in California) is merely us reaping what WE in the CHURCH have sown. We REALLY do NOT care about traditional family, as evidenced byour own conduct towards those who we say we will love "til death do us part"..............
Unfortuntely, what we seek after, even to our own detriment, God allows us to have.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 10:44:59 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
Here are some scripture passages that stand in contradiction to the above statements.
"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the d8ivorced woman commits adultery." Mt. 5:31-32
"Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Mt. 19:8-9
"But if the unbelievers leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? How do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" 1 Co 7:15-16
Your interpretation of these verses stands in contradiction to most of the verses on marriage and divorce.
You ignore God's clearly revealed heart toward the adulteress who He has told us not to cast stones at unless we are without sin.
Hosea 3:1
"The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."
Which counsel am I supposed to take- the above or yours that I can "divorce" for adultery? This verse also proves that adultery does not break the covenant. He is calling her HIS WIFE even though she is AN ADULTERESS, just like in Romans 7.
I still can't reconcile how you insist that Corinthians means we are no longer married if our spouse refuses to live with us and we are separated by enough miles. God's heart is still that we might win our spouse to the Lord even if they won't dwell with us. Where does it say, stay that they may be won over to the Lord...BUT if they leave who cares what happens to them- let em burn!!! Are you honestly telling me that is God's heart toward the wayward spouse???
The "unbelieving spouse leaving" argument is refuted by Jesus who says anyone who marries someone who is put away is committing adultery. And anyone who divorces and marries another commits adultery... so their covenant was not broken by simply leaving their spouse- even if they are as far away as Africa.
BTW- we are not just a small number on crosswalk... and as Lastblast pointed out remarriage was not this prevalent 100 years ago- it was almost non-existant.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 5/21/2008 11:25:37 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 12:09:26 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
I would add that many of these pastors, bible scholars, etc... have put a great deal of time studying the bible and looking for answers to this question, and still don't agree with this very small but vocal handful of users on crosswalk
You really can't speak for other people and what exactly their definition of "studying" this means. The truth is many of the Pastors today have not even studied this in depth if at all- other than accepting the doctrine they were handed. If they studied they would see that what is being taught today does not even resemble what was taught from the very beginning- from those closest to Jesus.
The one who counseled me obviously knew VERY little about the scriptures and very obviously did not want to be held accountable for what he told me- he kept dancing around and putting the ball back in my court... as if he couldn't give me any clear direction.
Many Pastors have actually been led to study further and realized they had been following this heretical teaching and have repented. They now see the permanence of the marriage covenant and they didn't even know there was this whole world out there of covenant spouses who see themselves as still married in the eyes of the Lord even though their spouse has "married" another and are praying for the restoration of their families (sometimes 10, 20, 30+ years). I would hate to be a Pastor endorsing second marriages while the first spouse still sees themselves married in God's eyes (through His clear Word).
We can know that any theology that has resulted in the church looking no different than the world… cannot be what God intended. We should look radical. We should look “peculiar”. Our lives should be different…making others watch and wonder what we have that they don’t .
We should be a testimony of love and faithfulness to God and our families. I echo what Sealed said about our obligation to preserve the institution of marriage and I will have no part in destroying that. Even if it means keeping my end of the bargain when my spouse doesn't. What is going on today is a mockery…
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 5/21/2008 12:25:31 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 12:45:19 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
What is going on today is a mockery…
It is utterly heart-wrenching, keepingfaith............As I said, I want to cry and am on the verge as I am reading Jeremiah and am seeing so many attributes of that Ungodly society in our own modern day society.............they were called "the people of God", and this country we live in is called by many a "Christian nation".............yet we have forsaken our Lord and have followed the evil desires of our own hearts. Should God treat this nation any differently than He treated Israel in their disobedience?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 2:21:18 PM
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BibleBased
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I am just in the Word of God daily. Talking about faith daily with believers and non believers. Yesterday in the Uk we had the vote in our parliament on abortion. Another example that once you move away from God's way, the mess you get into. If you marry once like God's Word says - you avoid other sins. Sex outside of marriage for example, getting pregnant and casual abortion.
If once married you stay married and avoid affairs - i hear people say he had an affair so i had one - the sin was firstly to God, not you, so act Holy and look at God and his Word the bible, not the sin and following satan and this world.
It is just a sad slippery slope - divorce, remarriage, imoral sex, children with different fathers. Because so many don't understand the sins in the Old Testament - they quote them as God allowing us to do imoral things! I was reading about Lot again yesterday. I hear Christians suggesting God approved of him sending out his virgin daughters to be raped. This is the kind of nonsense, some Christians think.
Yes you will find loop holes and get outs in the bible. I won't because i want to obey. But if you want to twist scripture it will tell you almost anything. Thank you to the friend who messaged me. BibleBased.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 2:28:37 PM
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DenimDiva
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From: CA
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I think most of us are saddened by the high rate of of broken families.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 4:32:10 PM
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DenimDiva
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From: CA
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cadz- I'm reading your site and find some of the information to be very thought provoking.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 5:35:26 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
quote:
No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them. For were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Car2ner:
Hmm, we could use this one also to say that we should not be partners with an unrepentant sinning spouse. This is why some of us believe that the scripture says that if an unbeliever choses to leave, let them.
This is a classic example of cherrypicking to justify doing what we want while ignoring the clear commands in regards to the married and the divorced. 1cor7:10-11
What do we do if that "partner" who won't leave?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 9:25:20 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 995
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
===================================
For the record, here is a history of the linguistic gymnastics required to arrive at a statement that they would agree fairly represented their beliefs.
For the record, here is how I arived at my beliefs:
Genesis 2:22-24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because | | |
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