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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 10:38:04 AM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
quote:
Putting out an adulterer? They put themselves out when they stepped out of the marriage bed into the bed of another.
Really? Is that what Jesus told the woman caught in adultery? You just put yourself out of the Kingdom by committing adultery?
Far be it from me to put anyone out of the Kingdom. That is far differant from letting someone leave the house. But it seems that some posters here have no problem with scripture supposedly putting people out of the kingdom.
Now you have re-worded what you said. I asked if we should put someone out for adultery...and you said they "put themselves out" by committing adultery. Which I assumed meant you agree that we can put our spouse out for adultery. Now you are saying "letting them leave." So maybe we aren't on the same page...
My point was not about putting someone out of the Kingdom, my point was that we should have the same heart Christ has for the adulterer and us when we are unfaithful to Him all the time.
As far as scriptures saying who will not enter the Kingdom. God's Word says there will be some who will not inherit the Kingdom, and I don't believe there is anything wrong with sharing God's Word regarding that.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 1:01:50 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
This is a perfect example of why I don't trust someone because of their "credentials." We can trust our good ole God given logic... and do the math and see that both ends of his equation cannot be correct.
Since his first conclusion refutes his second conclusion, we can assume his ultimate conclusion regarding staying in second marriages is flawed (because according to his first conclusion those cannot be valid marriages).
Grace turning adultery into a lawful marriage....I believe is one of the biggest heresies on this subject used by many...and how we got this far away from the truth. Nowhere does it say grace/forgiveness dissolves the marriage bond, it says death does.
We are forgiven...but that doesn't mean we were never married and never divorced. The lengths some will go to try to explain away God's Word is frightening. My stomach gets sick thinking about how much confusion there is surrounding this topic and how CLEAR God's Word is...but how much muddying of the water is going on.
You are so right, Keepingfaith. It is absolutely stomach churning to see what man has done with the Word of God on the issue of marriage...........and how he has given all kinds of reasons for premeditating and continuing in sin when the Lord who bought us calls us FROM sin to follow HIM.
If we can stay in unions that God has indicated are not lawful to Him (legalized adultery), then there is NO END to what we can explain away in regards to immorality and God's Grace to continue in it. If God's Grace allows us to continue in adultery and/or polygamy, then the door IN THE CHURCH has been swung wide open and for us to cry out against ONE type of immoral relationship is just not believeable when we remain silent on other types of immoral relationships the Lord has addressed MUCH MORE in His Word.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 1:03:13 PM
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car2ner
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Since your reply suggested you didn't understand my intent, I don't mind rewording it.
As far as sharing God's word, it comes back to this: we read the same scriptures and yet find differant opinions about those scriptures.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 1:47:23 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
As far as sharing God's word, it comes back to this: we read the same scriptures and yet find differant opinions about those scriptures.
"A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes. Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man."
1Cor 7:39, Luke 16:18, Rom 7:3
KJV
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
NIV
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
NASB
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
It is interesting to note in 1 Cor 6:9 that he uses the word "fornication" separately from adultery, one translation even replaces fornication with "sexual immorality", but also lists adultery separately in the same sentence (indicating a distinction between them). If "sexual immorality" was such a broad term covering all sexual sin, then why did he go on to list all the other forms of immorality... in the same sentence- wouldn't that be pretty redundant? This would follow the same in Matthew where he gives the exception for "fornication" and in the same sentence uses the word adultery for marrying another.
I don't really have an opinion about these verses, I just accept them as truth.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/24/2008 6:21:16 AM
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car2ner
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quote:
A wife is bound as long as her husband lives NO kidding...none of us are saying a woman with a husband should ger married to another husband.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/24/2008 8:46:09 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
A wife is bound as long as her husband lives
NO kidding...none of us are saying a woman with a husband should ger married to another husband.
But you are denying that she is bound as long as he lives, as well as that if she joins to another while he lives that she will be called an adulteress:
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/24/2008 11:16:36 AM
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blessednw
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RE: avoiding the appearance of evil.....
Denim,
this is also to protect people financially. If someone is coming to terms with Scripture and obedience, and feels they should leave, it is important to not be legally tied (for debts).
On another note:
Believers who are separated, but want to stay married, have chosen "legal separation" to separate out the financial obligations as some prodigals are wont to spend and run up debt while the one working to hold family together may be obligated for those debts.
I have heard, however, that some states are doing away with legal separation because the courts do not think there should be a distinction between these two options.
I understand why those who wish to consider their spouse still their spouse can still have health insurance, marital tax status and not be considered "single" by the courts. (So neither would be legally "free" to enter into another legal arrangement). I believe that legal separation has a place.
In this way, believers recognizing the marriage, while the difficulties of managing dwindling resources due to prodigal spending, can avoid the appearance of evil (divorce, or "cutting off")quote:
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/24/2008 11:23:37 AM
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blessednw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
A wife is bound as long as her husband lives
NO kidding...none of us are saying a woman with a husband should ger married to another husband.
But you are denying that she is bound as long as he lives, as well as that if she joins to another while he lives that she will be called an adulteress:
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
SealedEternal
Yes, the question is what we believe "as long as he lives" means.
Don't forget Luke 16:18
16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
18"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Luke and Paul teach the reality of a lifelong bond that God has established.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 8:53:52 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2944
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quote:
But you are denying that she is bound as long as he lives, as well as that if she joins to another while he lives that she will be called an adulteress:
We have already mentioned what it takes to no longer be husband and wife. Of course, if a legitimate divorce has not occured then he is her husband as long as he lives.
Bear in mind, men in those days could marry more than one woman and a women could not file for divorce on her own. She cannot simply walk away and marry another.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 10:30:10 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
We have already mentioned what it takes to no longer be husband and wife. Of course, if a legitimate divorce has not occured then he is her husband as long as he lives.
Bear in mind, men in those days could marry more than one woman and a women could not file for divorce on her own. She cannot simply walk away and marry another.
The only "legitimate" divorce one gets is when they are "married" to someone else's spouse or involved in a "marriage" the Lord has called an illicit union. That is the only permanent separation God honors as "good" and "honorable". If it is the separation of the ONE flesh that HE joined together, separation is NEVER good. It may be necessary for a time or even a long time if someone remains in unrepentance, but it is never seen as "good" in the eyes of the Lord.
You need to bear in mind that when Jesus addressed the issue of divorce/remarriage He DID bring the example of women divorcing their husbands and marrying others(Mk. 10)---He is God---He already knew cultures where it was and WOULD be permissible for women to contract a divorce from their husbands, and He told them they would be committing adultery if they divorced their husbands and married others----the same exact thing Paul said in Rom. 7:2-3.
Those who say adultery dissolves the marriages that God joins together or that new vows dissolve the original ones cannot explain why their views contradict what Jesus and Paul both taught.........That the marriages God joins together are bound til death.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 2:09:14 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
RE: avoiding the appearance of evil.....
Denim,
this is also to protect people financially. If someone is coming to terms with Scripture and obedience, and feels they should leave, it is important to not be legally tied (for debts).
On another note:
Believers who are separated, but want to stay married, have chosen "legal separation" to separate out the financial obligations as some prodigals are wont to spend and run up debt while the one working to hold family together may be obligated for those debts.
I have heard, however, that some states are doing away with legal separation because the courts do not think there should be a distinction between these two options.
I understand why those who wish to consider their spouse still their spouse can still have health insurance, marital tax status and not be considered "single" by the courts. (So neither would be legally "free" to enter into another legal arrangement). I believe that legal separation has a place.
In this way, believers recognizing the marriage, while the difficulties of managing dwindling resources due to prodigal spending, can avoid the appearance of evil (divorce, or "cutting off")quote:
there is no legal separation in my state. and by law you are responsible for your spouses debts. He or she can be spending like there is no tomorrow and you will be held responsible. This has caused women to receive absolutely nothing from the home they stayed home and raised their children in, because the home is considered "community property". It happens frequently. Think the woman always gets half of everything? Think again. So what would make a woman give up every source of financial stability she has, including her health insurance, home, possesions? Should we judge such a woman and pound her with Scripture? You cant accuse her of wanting the easy way out in these type situations, she certainly isnt getting anything that could be described as "an easy out" in such a marriage.
< Message edited by TATERBUGLETTE -- 5/25/2008 2:17:38 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 2:20:51 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
Posts: 131
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
But you are denying that she is bound as long as he lives, as well as that if she joins to another while he lives that she will be called an adulteress:
We have already mentioned what it takes to no longer be husband and wife. Of course, if a legitimate divorce has not occured then he is her husband as long as he lives.
Bear in mind, men in those days could marry more than one woman and a women could not file for divorce on her own. She cannot simply walk away and marry another.
I agree and I think this is where many get confused on the whole mess. And it IS a mess for sure. He isnt her husband if they are divorced. She isnt his wife if they are divorced. Its not as cut and dried as some think, and certainly doesnt reflect the heart of God that a couple stay married forever/no matter what/ in spite of horrible abuse/.....etc. Those bent in one direction on this can seldom if ever see that perhaps there is another way to look at it in light of the Scriptures.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 8:39:13 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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one of the best books I've ever read on the subject is The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Williard. In the chapter on divorce he says "is divorce ever justifiable for Jesus? I think clearly it is. His principle of the hardness of the heart allows it, although its application would require great care. Perhaps divorce must be viewed somewhat as the practice of triage in medical care. Decisions must be made as to who cannot, under the cirumstances, be helped. They are then left to die so that those who can be helped should live. "
I believe this is certainly what God meant in the oft quoted and true verse that says "a woman is bound as long as her husband lives...". Jesus was always looking at the heart more than the idea of dotting every I and crossing every T. Should an entire family wither on the vine so that one sinful mate can drain the life out of them in the interest of keeping a family intact at all costs? Does a woman (or man) stay with a rebellious unrepentant spouse and watch the entire family die slowly? I think the answer is clearly no.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 6:04:54 PM
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blessednw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
We have already mentioned what it takes to no longer be husband and wife. Of course, if a legitimate divorce has not occured then he is her husband as long as he lives.
Bear in mind, men in those days could marry more than one woman and a women could not file for divorce on her own. She cannot simply walk away and marry another.
The only "legitimate" divorce one gets is when they are "married" to someone else's spouse or involved in a "marriage" the Lord has called an illicit union. That is the only permanent separation God honors as "good" and "honorable". If it is the separation of the ONE flesh that HE joined together, separation is NEVER good. It may be necessary for a time or even a long time if someone remains in unrepentance, but it is never seen as "good" in the eyes of the Lord.
You need to bear in mind that when Jesus addressed the issue of divorce/remarriage He DID bring the example of women divorcing their husbands and marrying others(Mk. 10)---He is God---He already knew cultures where it was and WOULD be permissible for women to contract a divorce from their husbands, and He told them they would be committing adultery if they divorced their husbands and married others----the same exact thing Paul said in Rom. 7:2-3.
Those who say adultery dissolves the marriages that God joins together or that new vows dissolve the original ones cannot explain why their views contradict what Jesus and Paul both taught.........That the marriages God joins together are bound til death.
Right on. Thank God for some clarity and truth on this matter. If a oneflesh union separates, it is a painful thing, and it is only truly healed with reconciliation, which is God's desire.
If vows were so fleeting, why do we make them in the first place? They are serious promises, for a lifetime of the spouse involved.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 6:15:09 PM
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car2ner
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From: just north of Florida
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quote:
If vows were so fleeting, why do we make them in the first place? They are serious promises, for a lifetime of the spouse involved.
All too often vows are made sinfully. You believe this is true for 2nd or 3rd marriages (unless of course the partner died). So first unions are never sinfully made?
Because of the seriousness, way too many couple mearly live together.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 6:52:20 PM
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blessednw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
If vows were so fleeting, why do we make them in the first place? They are serious promises, for a lifetime of the spouse involved.
All too often vows are made sinfully. You believe this is true for 2nd or 3rd marriages (unless of course the partner died). So first unions are never sinfully made?
Because of the seriousness, way too many couple mearly live together.
I agree that many avoid the vows. So it is fornication, not a light sin either.
Even if people willfully choose sinful reactions to God's commands, like marrying an unbeliever when He says no, He doesn't give us a "way out". He warns us against it because it is a lifetime vow/oneflesh/bond.
Once you marry, you enter into a lifetime bond. As so many threads on this forum attest, it can be painful, and difficult, even when those both say they are "christians". Flesh struggling with flesh, always been a problem when we don't walk by the Spirit.
Most people do not know what their spouse will or won't do in the next 10 years. Most sin in the future is not carefully planned out in the present. It is a temptation and an effort from our enemy to destroy us and our walk with God. If people could keep this in mind, it would shed light on the things they are noticing in a rebelling mate.
so many people say they "married the wrong spouse" when their spouse is getting "difficult" or has changed into someone they "don't know". The painful reality is that we can have all things looking good enough to us at the time of commitment, even have niggling doubts, and still have problems later in our marriage relationships. It does not change the nature of vow-keeping and truth.
God still holds us accountable, directly to Him, for our keeping our end of covenant. Even though each one must search their heart about their own vow-keeping, I believe Scripture teaches that all will be held accountable for the truth as revealed in the Scriptures. Whether we believe it or not.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 9:14:50 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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I know of a young couple at a local church with 3 boys and another on the way. He is divorced once, this is his second marriage. His first wife is married to a Muslim. Does anyone think this man should leave his pregnant wife and 3 boys (soon to be four boys!) and rejoin with his now Muslim wife? He is to do what with the boys? Take them to be raised in a home with a Muslim mother , who is unstable in other ways . Leave them with their pregnant mom? (How likely that his first wife would take him and all his children in and that his second would allow him to take them? Not likely on either counts). Peoples lives are not cut and dried scenarios in which you follow the letter of the law but not the spirit. Actually this was the one thing Jesus preached against. Kids would be raised in a home with unchristian influence (Muslim mom who is mentally unstable due to drugs) or left with their mom and newborn baby brother, and hey, she'd just have to get up and get a job and support them!~How she would pay to feed, clothe, and deal with her broken heart etc is a good question to toss in here. )They are now in a thriving loving Christian home getting to know the Savior who dearly loves them. think about it..........
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 9:16:12 PM
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Roberta_
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Great question taterbuglette.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 10:05:16 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Great question taterbuglette.
There are an infinite number of scenarios we could come up with where sin makes a mess of families, and the most pragmatic solution for that situation would seem to be to go against God's commands. We see from experience however why God's wisdom is greater than ours in making this bond absolute and indissolvible, because once you start to permit divorce and remarriage in limited and perhaps logical situations, mankind will push that line further and further until millions are divorcing and remarrying for virtually any reason, and the institution itself is destroyed. That's where we are today. If people understood going into their marriages that they only had one chance and one only, perhaps they would make better choices, and perhaps they would be more inclined to treat one another better, knowing that they are bound to this person for the rest of their lives, and cannot trade them in for someone better when things get tough. Marriages will always have problems as long as they consist of two imperfect people, but clearly the culture of divorce has made things worse rather than better.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 10:18:55 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
Marriages will always have problems as long as they consist of two imperfect people, but clearly the culture of divorce has made things worse rather than better.
SealedEternal
For the most part I agree.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 10:32:09 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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sealed, am I misunderstanding you? you are saying yes, he should return to his former wife who is now Muslim. Please correct me if i'm wrong. you will of course have to be specific to answer.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 10:53:59 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
I know of a young couple at a local church with 3 boys and another on the way. He is divorced once, this is his second marriage. His first wife is married to a Muslim. Does anyone think this man should leave his pregnant wife and 3 boys (soon to be four boys!) and rejoin with his now Muslim wife? He is to do what with the boys? Take them to be raised in a home with a Muslim mother , who is unstable in other ways . Leave them with their pregnant mom? (How likely that his first wife would take him and all his children in and that his second would allow him to take them? Not likely on either counts). Peoples lives are not cut and dried scenarios in which you follow the letter of the law but not the spirit. Actually this was the one thing Jesus preached against. Kids would be raised in a home with unchristian influence (Muslim mom who is mentally unstable due to drugs) or left with their mom and newborn baby brother, and hey, she'd just have to get up and get a job and support them!~How she would pay to feed, clothe, and deal with her broken heart etc is a good question to toss in here. )They are now in a thriving loving Christian home getting to know the Savior who dearly loves them. think about it..........
Hello tater,
MANY people have heartbreaking or extenuating circumstances which leads them to where they are at today. In all such cases, the question SHOULD be: am "I" in a marriage that is valid in the sight of God? For a follower of Jesus there is no other question more important than that----------we can't focus on all the extraneous details(which for many in such situations are overwhelming to even contemplate initially).
Once the answer is found, THEN one must determine how they will "fix" their situation in the sight of God and whether they will trust Him or not when they walk obediently. I really think you are mistaken to believe it is not the "letter of the law" to obey God. It's not. Jesus said it is LOVE. A good friend of mine reminded me today of Jesus' words on the issue of following Him. In following Him obediently, we may even have to give up family members who cause us to love this life more than Jesus----our mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, yes, and even a wife/husband, if we desire to be obedient. None(our family, friends, etc) can expect us to sin/stay in sin because we LOVE them MORE than we love Jesus. Jesus said that if we place ANYTHING/ANYONE above Him, we cannot be His disciples.
Concerning how the "wife" would take care of her children............did you not say the husband is a Christian? Are you thinking he would not take care for his children in the case of an adulterous union? Sorry, if I am misunderstanding you.
As for the heartache, do you feel exactly the same about other illicit unions that separat | | |
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