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RE: joyce meyer - 10/29/2006 11:33:12 AM
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africansailor
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she is very good in what she is doing. talk to people who are convinced of hr truth. she is nice looking, she is bright in some terms but to whom si she speaking? to convinced people and not to people who might ask her difficult questions.
i hope she will once see that what she is doing is fjust or herself .
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RE: joyce meyer - 10/29/2006 11:57:50 AM
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sisrev
Posts: 438
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From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
The point is what God's word says, all of it, and that in context.
This is exactly what I am talking about when I say we need to be in balance. I do NOT agree with the WOF emphasis on their perception of prosperity, nor do I agree with their teaching. A previous poster quotes Paul's passage about being content in whatever state he finds himself and bolded only the parts about being abased, in want, in need, etc. To support my point about taking in the whole of scripture, in context, or as I say, in balance, I quoted the same scripture, and bolded the reverse--abounding, being full, having needs met. My point being, that if we criticize some (WOF or whoever) for taking scripture out of context, or emphaszing only parts of it to prove their point, we cannot turn around and do same thing to make ours.
It is about truth. But the only way we can find that truth is to take the whole of scripture, and keep it in balance, or as you say, in context. What seems to happen in the church world is that if any particular movement or group takes certain scriptures and emphasizes them to the exclusion of others, instead of bringing it back into correct balance, we throw the baby out with the bath water and turn a blind eye to these scriptures even having a place in correct doctrine.
Isn't that what is meant by rightly dividing the word? All of scripture, kept in balance(context)?
quote:
As an aside, I do not envy you being in Alaska right now. It's about 40 degrees here in Alabama and my feet are already cold 
It's 21 degrees here this morning,and I've learned one thing since I got here--layer, layer, layer!
_____________________________
A Virtuous Woman
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RE: joyce meyer - 10/29/2006 9:50:03 PM
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shadowspring
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Joyce Meyer does some things really well, in my experience as a prison ministry volunteer.
The thing she does most well is hammer into her books that the Word of God is to be put first place in a new believer's life; that you absolutley cannot live by your feelings any longer; that you must read your Bible every day and renew your mind to God's Word in order to even know what is right thinking, and once you know, you have to reject the old thought patterns you formerly lived by now that you know God's Word says different. She stresses the importance of obeying God's Word, and how obedience is more important than the hopeful trust she calls "walking by faith".
She gets this message across in a vernacular that ladies in prison easily understand, unlike, oh say, R. C. Sproul. =)
I have seen lives changed through her ministry (TV and books) as well as her generosity. It is well known in our prison that JMM will send Bibles and materials free of charge to inmates who write and ask for them.
Is she infallible? Nope. Is she effective for Jesus? Yep.
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RE: joyce meyer - 10/30/2006 2:12:12 AM
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sisrev
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From: The South, ya'll
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Thanks for that positive feedback on Joyce Meyer ministries. I've heard some good things that her ministry does with prison outreach, etc, especially in her home state of Missouri. I think one year they gave books, toiletries, etc, to each person in the state prison system; they may do it each year, I'm not sure. I've heard several testimonies of people in prison who have been helped by her teaching.
_____________________________
A Virtuous Woman
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RE: joyce meyer - 10/30/2006 7:25:23 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1558
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
Is she effective for Jesus?
Which Jesus?
The Jesus whose death on the cross wasn't sufficient?
The Jesus who was "born again" in hell?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: joyce meyer - 10/30/2006 12:50:05 PM
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ilj1971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sisrev
Thanks for that positive feedback on Joyce Meyer ministries. I've heard some good things that her ministry does with prison outreach, etc, especially in her home state of Missouri. I think one year they gave books, toiletries, etc, to each person in the state prison system; they may do it each year, I'm not sure. I've heard several testimonies of people in prison who have been helped by her teaching.
She has done quite alot actually, especially over the last few years. She has opened a young women's home for women who are trying to get out of prostitution, drugs, etc. She has opened clinics in underdeveloped countries, orphanages, dug fresh wells in arears where people usually have to walk miles every day to get water. She had homes built for Katrina survivors, too. Her outreahes go out and give roses to prostitutes and preach to them about Jesus, and let them know there is a way out of that life. Kinda makes me feel a bit inadequate, since there are towns where I live that have these folk, and churches aren't doing a whole lot to help. I commend her for doing so much great work.
_____________________________
There is no pit too deep God's arm cannot reach down and pull you out of.
None of us are always 100% right, none of us are always 100% wrong. Last time I checked, none of us are infalliable.
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RE: joyce meyer - 10/30/2006 1:05:47 PM
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howling wind
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From: Texas, y'all...
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quote:
She has done quite alot actually, especially over the last few years. She has opened a young women's home for women who are trying to get out of prostitution, drugs, etc. She has opened clinics in underdeveloped countries, orphanages, dug fresh wells in arears where people usually have to walk miles every day to get water. She had homes built for Katrina survivors, too.
And I'm sure many atheists and agnostics have done the same things. Look, it is commendable if she has done these things. However, her core teachings are unbiblical and wrong.
_____________________________
They banned my last avatar!
http://londoncalling67.blog.com
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RE: joyce meyer - 10/31/2006 5:29:22 PM
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shadowspring
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I am sitting here with a huge grin on my face, because I have only read the same gospel out of Joyce Meyer's books that I have read everywhere else- you know, Jesus, the Word made flesh, born of the Holy Spirit to the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, died on the cross for our sins, rose again the third day, walked the earth for a short season and ascended to heaven in the clouds, who will return again in like manner. You know the One, right? The only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth?
But I have no time to spend combing through the thousands of JMM tapes and books looking for embarrassing mistakes of theology. The main point, it's pretty obvious she knows the Lord and is preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I have never heard the goofy teachings Sox posted. But then neither do I doubt his post. It just seems superfluous to my experience with her as far as helping women who've made a mess of their lives learn to put Jesus first.
Certainly if I knew or read of such goofiness in a book of hers, I would no longer recommend that book. But I wouldn't dismiss all the good practical teaching I have read so far, either.
I guess to me it'd be like my first pastor. I learned a ton of good stuff about the Lord from him, but I don't plan to commit adultery and break up two marriages like he did. But I am still holding on the good I learned, even if the messenger was flawed in a big way.
With good will to all,
shadow 
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RE: joyce meyer - 11/1/2006 7:14:40 AM
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Soxfan
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
I am sitting here with a huge grin on my face, because I have only read the same gospel out of Joyce Meyer's books that I have read everywhere else- you know, Jesus, the Word made flesh, born of the Holy Spirit to the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, died on the cross for our sins, rose again the third day, walked the earth for a short season and ascended to heaven in the clouds, who will return again in like manner. You know the One, right? The only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth?
But I have no time to spend combing through the thousands of JMM tapes and books looking for embarrassing mistakes of theology. The main point, it's pretty obvious she knows the Lord and is preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I have never heard the goofy teachings Sox posted. But then neither do I doubt his post. It just seems superfluous to my experience with her as far as helping women who've made a mess of their lives learn to put Jesus first.
Certainly if I knew or read of such goofiness in a book of hers, I would no longer recommend that book. But I wouldn't dismiss all the good practical teaching I have read so far, either.
I guess to me it'd be like my first pastor. I learned a ton of good stuff about the Lord from him, but I don't plan to commit adultery and break up two marriages like he did. But I am still holding on the good I learned, even if the messenger was flawed in a big way.
With good will to all,
shadow
90% of rat poison is NON-toxic. However, the other 10% is enough to kill the rat.
Teaching that Jesus' work on the cross wasn't sufficient and that he had to descend to hell, fight the devil and become the first "born again" man completely contradicts the core doctrine of the Christian faith. I would say that this false doctrine qualifies as a lot more than just "goofy". It is one of the major teachings of false WoF theology.
I'm not even going to re-visit her over-emphasis on financial prosperity and her lavish lifestyle. That horse has been beaten to death
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/13/2007 4:05:49 AM
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everjoyful
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ok so i have read.
the main doctrine argument is that she is in error over the crucifixtion?
is it not possible to hear the teaching that is good and is beneficial and does help me grow and ignore the stuff that doesn't wash? after all i feel i have to do this with every teacher. whenevr i hear someone teach i am thinking "yes i agree with that, no i don't agree with that" but it doesn't mean that i go away counting the entire sermon as a loss.
i always pray that god will help me to understand the truth, i check every thing against the word and i struggle to get an understanding for myself.
as for money. she tithes she does charity work. would you rather she lived in a mud hut and wore a hair tunic and a belt?
yes she is rich and her wages have come from her book sales etc. (books which have allowed thousands of people to break free from their own emotional opression.)
richness is relative. i am farely poor. i dont drive as i cannot afford to. i dont own my own home. i get gov money for my sons disability. but compared to a family of fiteen living in a room somewhere with no running water and medicine etc. i am so blessed. my small dvd collection and my pile of christian books and worship cds are pure luxury. not to mention my bed my fridge my cooker etc.
the point i am making is you cannot tear her to shreds for her money. you would need to set a limit on how much wealth is acceptable for a christian to posess and then judge her by that. i think we should be prepared to have nothing!
most of you tearing this woman down for what she has gained financially are probably much much wealthier than me. should i be discrediting your opinion because you drive a smart car or own your own home?
she does not beg for money, she sells her work. i don't believe she is money obsessed. if god wanted her to give something up i believe she would.
women speaking is a seperate issue i understand. but not for me. i believe that god anoints women to teach. if you are a man and feel that her teaching usurps your spiritual authority then dont listen to her.
i think i have said everything i want to here  you re free to pull my post apart and argue it all out but i don't think i will be changing my mind.
i dont think she is infallible i dont think that she thinks that either. i dont agree with her about the crucifixion i think that is wrong. but i do believe that she strives to be right and i do believe she is anointed to teach.
if i ever find a speaker who i agree with 100% i will let you know.
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/13/2007 8:42:16 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
i dont think she is infallible i dont think that she thinks that either. i dont agree with her about the crucifixion i think that is wrong. but i do believe that she strives to be right and i do believe she is anointed to teach.
if i ever find a speaker who i agree with 100% i will let you know.
Here are a few more quotes from Mrs Meyer. I don't want you to think that her only false teaching is on the crucifixion. She also teaches Word of Faith theology:
- "You know, I was listening to a set of tapes by one man and he explained it like this, and I think this kind of gets the point across, he said, ‘Why do people have such a fit about God calling His creation, His man—not His whole creation, but His man—little gods? If He’s God, what’s He going to call them but the god-kind?’ I mean, if you as a human being have a baby, you call it a human kind. If cattle has another cattle, they call it cattle-kind. So, I mean, what’s God supposed to call us? Doesn’t the Bible say we’re created in his image? Now, you understand I am not saying you are God with a capital G."
(Joyce Meyer, "Authority and Opposition," Tape 1236. Article, "What Joyce Wants Joyce Gets")
- "Our words are containers of power. The power of life and death is in the tongue."
(Joyce Meyer, "What Does Your Future Hold?" TBN, May 24, 2004)
-"We can kill the plan of God for our lives with a negative confession."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth")
-"Say this with me, 'I will not kill God's good plan for my life by speaking negative words."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth")
Note: This is absurd to think that our words can kill a plan of an Almighty and Sovereign God. Think about it my friend, is this not the height of arrogance to think that our words can kill what God wants to do?
-"I want us to think again for a minute in closing about this thing about making sure that we're not killing God's plan with negative words."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth")
-"If I speak death I'll eat death. If I speak life I'll eat life...I want you to say with me, 'I can destroy my life with my own words."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth")
-"I believe that words are containers for power and they either carry negative or positive power. They carry creative or destructive power. So, if I'm speaking right things I'm going to have right results. And if I'm speaking wrong things I'm going to have wrong results. And we do pay for our words. If, if I can say it like this, we eat our own words."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth")
-"When Jesus was experiencing the most intense pressure of His life, He decided that it would be wise not to open His mouth. Why? I believe it was because He realized that in His humanity, He would have been tempted to do the same thing you and I are tempted to do—doubt, question God, complain, or say something negative."
(Joyce Meyer, Enjoying Everyday Life Magazine, "Crossing Over to the Other Side" May 2004)
-"Did you know that you can change the very course of your life by the type of words you speak?"
(Joyce Meyer, Enjoying Everyday Life Magazine, "Think before You Speak" May 2004)
-"My teaching this weekend as usual is not going to be doctrinally religious. It's going to be something that you can use in your everyday life."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 1 of 4 the "Mind")
-"But you cannot throw out positive confession, and you cannot throw out all the faith teachers, and you cannot throw out positive thinking. And you cannot get rid of those kinds of things because they're in the Bible from one end of it to the other."
(Joyce Meyer, PFO Quarterly Journal, April-June 2002, pg. 6.
-"The faith movement is right. You can't throw the faith movement out the window."
(Joyce Meyer, PFO Quarterly Journal, April-June 2002, pg. 14.)
-"We need to have faith filled words going out of our mouth."
(Joyce Meyer, PFO Quarterly Journal, April-June 2002, pg. 14. Satan and Demons-Origin and Fall, side 2)
-"Giving doesn't cost, it pays!"
(Joyce Meyer, Daystar Spring Share-A-Thon, March 2, 2004)
-"You know that if you send these offerings into the ministry your gonna help us to keep reaching out to hurting people all over the world. What you make happen for somebody else God will make happen for you. Sow a seed and God will meet your need."
(Joyce Meyer, "Enjoying Everyday Life," June 24, 2004)
-"Words are containers for power they carry creative or destructive power positive or negative power so we need to be speaking right things over our lives and about our futures if we expect to have good things happen because what you say then is what you probably end up having tomorrow.
(Joyce Meyer, audio-clip, "Bible Answer-man," Hank Hanegraaff, January, 2003)
-"Poverty is probably one of the most unique spirits to watch. You can watch a spirit of poverty take over an entire neighborhood...And almost always with a poverty spirit, comes a spirit that just stinks. I mean, a poverty spirit just plain stinks. When I get people at the altar that got a poverty spirit on them they almost always have bad breath and body odor."
(Joyce Meyer, PFO Quarterly Journal, April-June 2002, page 6)
-"You got a storage bin, a storage locker in heaven that has alot of stuff in it that needs to be claimed."
(Joyce Meyer, "What Does Your Future Hold" May 21, 2004)
-"We need to claim as much of that inheritance as we possibly can...One of the things you can do right now is speak positive things about your future right now."
(Joyce Meyer, "What Does Your Future Hold" May 21, 2004)
-"Sowing and reaping is a spiritual law...Sow generously and you will reap generously."
(Joyce Meyer, "What Does Your Future Hold" May 21, 2004)
-"Sowing and reaping is a law," Meyer told the Buffalo audience. "If you sow, you will reap. I believe stingy people are very unhappy people. I want you to give your best offering. I believe one person could write one check to cover all of the expenses of this one conference."
(Article on Joyce Meyer, 11/17/2003, St. Louis Post Dispatch)
- "God does not need our money. The giving thing is not for Him, it's for us," Meyer told a Detroit audience in September. "I should not have to work to try to support myself."
(Article on Joyce Meyer, 11/17/2003, St. Louis Post Dispatch)
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/13/2007 11:50:25 AM
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everjoyful
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soxfan thank you for taking time to aid my search for the truth.
i have to say that i do agree with her on a few things. ie we shgould speak in a pessimistic way about something we have just asked god for. that's just common sense.
not sure that our negative words could change our plan from god but they certainly can slow down our growth.
i also agree that god rewards givers-i have read much in the bible to suggest that as you bless others you will be cared for. not sure that the scriptures could be used to get people to give you money though.
i have searched joyce meyers out alot today online to find out her teachings and her affiliations. many sites suggest that her word has slowly watered down to appeal to more people. that happens so much.
i will certainly be cautiouse about what i take from her teaching in future. but i will still watch her show and still read the bible that has her insights in. but i will as i am always keep my eyes open for error and pray that god reveal his meaning to me personally. i study independantly with many books devotions etc. i attend church, worship group and bible study weekly so it's not like she is my mentor and sole teacher lol.
1)i know if i preached i would not gain financially. i would feel so wrong about that. i would trust god to touch people to provide the finances i needed to operate. and i would use money for my house and transport (if i was unable to work due to the time spent in ministry) but i wouldn't live beyond my needs. but that's me and my calling. i don't know joyces heart.
2)i dont know where jesus went between death and life. with all that sin on him would he have appeared in heaven?--no heresy here lol i'm just a girl who doesn't know yet.
3) i have to say that her published statement of faith on her site says none of the things that have been levelled against her.
it's a fascinating subject. i will pray for her that she hangs on to gods truth and that she will speak that out loud. and not slip into the temptations money brings.
but for what her talking has done for me i would be throwing the baby out with the bath water to negate it. but i will be more aware and weigh up her talk with scripture.
i just soemtimes think though that in our search for false teachers we turn into a bit of a witch hunt.
every denomination teaches something that a nother denomination feels is heresy. we all disagree. as long as we agree that jesus is the only way to heaven then i am happy to take what god lets me feelis right and disregard what can planely see is a lie.
thanks again for trying to help me. and you have. i am more aware now of some crucial issues.
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/13/2007 1:01:38 PM
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lw9
Posts: 898
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Hello everjoyful!
quote:
i dont know where jesus went between death and life. with all that sin on him would he have appeared in heaven?--no heresy here lol i'm just a girl who doesn't know yet.
Okay, fair enough. The best thing to do is look to scripture for the answer. Jesus didn't become sin or sinful. He was completely and utterly sinless:
1 Jn 3:5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have One who has been tempted in every way, just as we are – yet was without sin.
1 Pet 2:22 He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth.
[See also: Heb 9:13-14, 1 Pet 1:18-19, 2 Cor 5:21, 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 9:12-14, 1 Pet 3:18]
What He did do was bear our sin in His flesh and became the atoning sacrifice through His physical death. It was finished and completed on the cross. It was only His flesh that died, not His Spirit:
1 Pet 2:24 And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh…
[See also: Isa 53:12, Heb 10:19-20, Col 1:19-22, Heb 9:28]
Before Jesus Christ came, the OT men and women died in their faith and no one ascended into heaven [Jn 3:12-13]. But they looked forward to the coming of Christ to bring them into heaven. Christ came, atoned for all sin, and He then descended to bring those waiting for Him up to heaven with Him:
Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord…
Heb 11:13 All these people [descendants of Abraham] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.
Heb 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only with us would they be made perfect.
1Pet 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
Yes, we as Christians may disagree on the non-salvational points, but on issues of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - there is no room for error. By saying that Jesus died spiritually, was tortured in hell, and didn't atone for sin on the cross, she's not even teaching the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and she has clearly denied the atonement. Yes, she may have some things right, but that in no way negates the serious errors and lies she's presenting about Jesus Christ Himself. The Bible clearly tells us to stay well away from people like that, you know?
< Message edited by lw9 -- 6/13/2007 1:14:37 PM >
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/13/2007 1:21:59 PM
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lw9
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Hi again, everjoyful. I wanted to break this up into 2 posts because the first was so long [sorry about that!!].
quote:
i have to say that her published statement of faith on her site says none of the things that have been levelled against her.
Yes, and this is the case with all of the false WOF teachers I've ever run across. The statement of faith looks okay because they haven't defined which Jesus they're talking about and they don't go into details.
For example, I might state that I believe Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, which sounds just fine. But then I write a book that says Jesus Christ was born of a virgin on the planet Mars. Only then does it become clear that I'm not talking about the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. Deception is subtle, and that's why you have to examine these folks' beliefs not just through their short and generic statement of faith, but their videos, audios, and books because that's where you see the true colors coming out.
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/13/2007 6:11:20 PM
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shelaughed
Posts: 108
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From: this spot on earth
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power of tongue:
Proverbs 18: 20-21
20 From the fruit of his mouth a man's stomach is filled;
with the harvest from his lips he is satisfied.
21 The tongue has the power of life and death,
and those who love it will eat its fruit.
Proverbs 23: 7
7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.
“ Eat and drink!” he says to you,
But his heart is not with you.
Duet. 30: 19-20
19I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessings and the curses; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live
20And may love the Lord your God, obey His voice, and cling to Him. For He is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Numbers 14: 26-30
26And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron,
27How long will this evil congregation murmur against Me? I have heard the complaints the Israelites murmur against Me.
28Tell them, As I live, says the Lord, what you have said in My hearing I will do to you:
29Your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness--of all who were numbered of you, from twenty years old and upward, who have murmured against Me,(E)
30Surely none shall come into the land in which I swore to make you dwell, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
_____________________________
~~Shelly - http://shellysspot.blogspot.com
If you can't say AMEN, you outta say OUCH!
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/13/2007 11:54:01 PM
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lightshineon
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Here is what I think. She has good common sense teachings on attitudes. Her voice grates on my husband. I do not think she is someone who can teach to those that do not know wheat from chaff, but she has good points, and some false teaching mixed in. I think she has grown in the last few years in doctrine ( atleast I hope). She is not a deep theological teacher, she maybe was not ment to be, I do think you should not throw out the baby with the bath water, and also check everything she says by the word.
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/14/2007 2:53:52 AM
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everjoyful
Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2007
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thankyou lw9 i take from your verses that he assumed responsibility then rather than becoming them. thankyou for explaning. but i still dont see what he was doing that saturday.
and thankyou for your common sense post about her statement of faith.
she laughed. thankyou those are the verses that make me feel she is right about our speaking out.
lightshine on. thankyou. you have basically said what i feel in a much clearer way lol. i so dont have a gift for forum writing ha ha. although i like her voice lol. i like her accent.
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/14/2007 10:24:10 AM
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lw9
Posts: 898
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Hi again, everjoyful!
quote:
thankyou for explaning. but i still dont see what he was doing that saturday.
Ok, no worries. Take another look at these passages. In the OT times, they were under the law, right? But no one successfully kept the law [they disobeyed] even though they had faith in God. They didn't ascend into heaven but neither were they being punished and tormented. Hades is the place where all of the dead went before Christ's ascension, and the faithful were separated from the unfaithful in an area called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. Well, Jesus Christ did come, and after His death on the cross He descended to the faithful in Hades [the Paradise section] and revealed Himself to them:
1Pet 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
He then led them into heaven:
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
He descended to release the faithful from Paradise in Hades and bring them into heaven with Him. Does that make sense now?
< Message edited by lw9 -- 6/14/2007 10:59:59 AM >
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/14/2007 10:59:21 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1631
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
she laughed. thankyou those are the verses that make me feel she is right about our speaking out.
Go back and read the contexts, see the subjects and objects, be mindful of the covenant to which they apply, and you will see that they do not mean or teach what JM says they do.
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<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/14/2007 4:11:23 PM
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shelaughed
Posts: 108
Joined: 4/2/2007
From: this spot on earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
she laughed. thankyou those are the verses that make me feel she is right about our speaking out.
Go back and read the contexts, see the subjects and objects, be mindful of the covenant to which they apply, and you will see that they do not mean or teach what JM says they do.
They are in context. I didn't miss quote them. The proverbs have nothing to do with covenants and are applicable to daily living, even daily living today.
_____________________________
~~Shelly - http://shellysspot.blogspot.com
If you can't say AMEN, you outta say OUCH!
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/14/2007 6:17:38 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1631
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shelaughed
They are in context. I didn't miss quote them. The proverbs have nothing to do with covenants and are applicable to daily living, even daily living today.
I was speaking, in general, about the OT scriptures (as well as the NT) used to make a case for the false gospel and prosperity heresy she teaches. The scripture you quoted, by your own description of them, would not even promote or prove the positive utterance teaching that JM teaches.
Also note that the langauge in Proverbs makes wide use of figurative language to teach a literal truth. For example, when it says, "The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit," we know the tongue does not bear fruit. What JM and those of her ilk try tto do is to take figurative langauge and make it literal, all the while either ignoring, twisting, or redefining the literal langauge of scripture that directly speaks against what she teaches. It is often a subtle but very real deception via semantic hocus-pocus.
It is good to have a good attitude? No one argues that it isn't. Do my words have some kind of mystic power to accomplish supernatural things apart from the will of God, or to make God beholden to act on my behalf (also called "claiming the promises of the word")? No, they don't.
We are not God. We can not, through the sheer power of our will and words, create and move circumstance as God does. This is exactly what JM teaches under the guise of scripture.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/14/2007 7:06:30 PM
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shelaughed
Posts: 108
Joined: 4/2/2007
From: this spot on earth
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: shelaughed
They are in context. I didn't miss quote them. The proverbs have nothing to do with covenants and are applicable to daily living, even daily living today.
I was speaking, in general, about the OT scriptures (as well as the NT) used to make a case for the false gospel and prosperity heresy she teaches. The scripture you quoted, by your own description of them, would not even promote or prove the positive utterance teaching that JM teaches.
Also note that the langauge in Proverbs makes wide use of figurative language to teach a literal truth. For example, when it says, "The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit," we know the tongue does not bear fruit. What JM and those of her ilk try tto do is to take figurative langauge and make it literal, all the while either ignoring, twisting, or redefining the literal langauge of scripture that directly speaks against what she teaches. It is often a subtle but very real deception via semantic hocus-pocus.
It is good to have a good attitude? No one argues that it isn't. Do my words have some kind of mystic power to accomplish supernatural things apart from the will of God, or to make God beholden to act on my behalf (also called "claiming the promises of the word")? No, they don't.
We are not God. We can not, through the sheer power of our will and words, create and move circumstance as God does. This is exactly what JM teaches under the guise of scripture.
I didn't say anything of the sort. This is a pretty big stretch. I posted the scripture that was quoted as saying didn't exist in the bible.
I guess my question to you (and others) is......if the tongue and the words that we use aren't powerful, why so much about it in the Bible?
What about James 3: 1-10
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed,[a] we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. 4 Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. 5 Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.
See how great a forest a little fire kindles! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.
I'm not asking you to defend JM. I'm not asking you to change your stance about her. I am saying that the bible talks ALOT about our words and the attitude of our heart (aka mind will and emotions). Clearly this is something important to God.
My parents were unkind with thier words. I grew up thinking I was stupid and ugly and worthless. Why? Well because I was called names, those and others.
I wonder how I might have viewed myself if my parents had told me I was beautiful and deserving of love and that I was precious to them and that I was smart?
If the tongue isn't important and words mean nothing, why is it necessary for salvation to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord?
You don't have to believe JM, I'm not here to change your mind. Really I'm not.
However I will tell you this, you won't change mine. God has delievered me from a lifetime of bondage.....with words.
_____________________________
~~Shelly - http://shellysspot.blogspot.com
If you can't say AMEN, you outta say OUCH!
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/14/2007 10:33:43 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 1712
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
However I will tell you this, you won't change mine. God has delievered me from a lifetime of bondage.....with words.
But was it through your effort? Or, was it realizing that you were powerless to change things and needed His help alone. Big difference.
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RE: joyce meyer - 6/15/2007 2:53:47 AM
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everjoyful
Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Hi again, everjoyful!
quote:
thankyou for explaning. but i still dont see what he was doing that saturday.
Ok, no worries. Take another look at these passages. In the OT times, they were under the law, right? But no one successfully kept the law [they disobeyed] even though they had faith in God. They didn't ascend into heaven but neither were they being punished and tormented. Hades is the place where all of the dead went before Christ's ascension, and the faithful were separated from the unfaithful in an area called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. Well, Jesus Christ did come, and after His death on the cross He descended to the faithful in Hades [the Paradise section] and revealed Himself to them:
1Pet 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
He then led them into heaven:
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
He descended to release the faithful from Paradise in Hades and bring them into heaven with Him. Does that make sense now?
thankyou. yes that makes sense.
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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