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RE: joyce meyer - 7/30/2007 4:12:38 PM
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earthless
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Also, have any defenders of Joyce Meyer's teachings actually taken one of her teachings/quotes in question and explained them?
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RE: joyce meyer - 7/30/2007 4:26:16 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: anointedtoteach
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
To give her her due, she does preach Christ crucified as Paul admonishes, and does point lost souls to the cross as we all should do with dilligence.
You get much past that, all the wheels start wobblin'. Badly.
She also preaches a Christ that had to descend to hell, fight the devil, and become the first "born again" man.
That is HERESY in the highest order
I have a question, Where is Hell located... If you tell me where hell located, I will tell you where she got it from.
AT
How about you just enlighten us on both accounts? And, when you speak of Hell, do you mean Hades or Gehenna?
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RE: joyce meyer - 7/30/2007 4:47:55 PM
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anointedtoteach
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: anointedtoteach
I have a question, Where is Hell located... If you tell me where hell located, I will tell you where she got it from.
AT
So you believe Jesus had to go to Hell to suffer for three days, was tortured and sexually assaulted by demons? That Jesus had to speak words of faith to become the first born again man and grapple keys out of Satan's hands?
Even if you said no to all of that - the simple biblical facts remains that:
a) Satan is not currently in Hell
b) Satan, when he is placed in Hell by God, will not be there as some king or ruler. He will be there like everyone else.
It is unbiblical to teach that Jesus did not atone for our sins on the cross.
I just asked a simple question.... can you give me a simple answer. I did not mention anything about Satan and his location...
Now Please answer the question without all the additional stuff..... I have another question to ask, after you answer this one.
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RE: joyce meyer - 7/30/2007 5:03:20 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: anointedtoteach
I just asked a simple question.... can you give me a simple answer. I did not mention anything about Satan and his location...
Now Please answer the question without all the additional stuff..... I have another question to ask, after you answer this one.
If we're going to talk about asking simple questions.. we have been asking simple questions which have gone unanswered by those that defend Joyce Meyer's teachings.
But I will answer the one posed about Hell. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to described the realm of the dead is "Sheol." It simply means the "place of the dead" or the "place of departed souls/spirits."
The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is "Hades," which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that Sheol / Hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment.
Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to “Hell” because “Hell” is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Sheol / Hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost.
The abode of the saved was called “Paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.”
The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a "great gulf fixed" (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to Heaven, He took the occupants of Paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10).
The lost side of Sheol / Hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future.
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RE: joyce meyer - 7/30/2007 5:27:43 PM
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anointedtoteach
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
To give her her due, she does preach Christ crucified as Paul admonishes, and does point lost souls to the cross as we all should do with dilligence.
You get much past that, all the wheels start wobblin'. Badly.
She also preaches a Christ that had to descend to hell, fight the devil, and become the first "born again" man.
That is HERESY in the highest order
quote:
I have a question, Where is Hell located... If you tell me where hell located, I will tell you where she got it from.
AT
How about you just enlighten us on both accounts? And, when you speak of Hell, do you mean Hades or Gehenna?
Gehenna is the Greek word meaning "the lake of fire" and Hades Greek word meaning "abode of departed dead or departed spirits" it is Sheol in Hebrew. Tartartus is used in II Peter 2:4 Prison of the fallen angels. Abussos or Abyss Rev. 9:1-12 meaning "Bottomless pit" .
Paradise, which is nolonger use or apart Hell, some believe this is where those who die went before Jesus resurrection.
Luke 23:42-43
23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jesus was not resurrected till three days later... Jesus wasn't going to heaven. According to Matthew 12.40, he went to the heart of the earth
Matthew 12 Read This Chapter
12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Another... What is the "HEART of the EARTH"? Is it paradise? hell?
AT
< Message edited by anointedtoteach -- 7/30/2007 5:46:18 PM >
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RE: joyce meyer - 7/30/2007 5:39:16 PM
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anointedtoteach
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: anointedtoteach
I just asked a simple question.... can you give me a simple answer. I did not mention anything about Satan and his location...
Now Please answer the question without all the additional stuff..... I have another question to ask, after you answer this one.
If we're going to talk about asking simple questions.. we have been asking simple questions which have gone unanswered by those that defend Joyce Meyer's teachings.
But I will answer the one posed about Hell. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to described the realm of the dead is "Sheol." It simply means the "place of the dead" or the "place of departed souls/spirits."
The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is "Hades," which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that Sheol / Hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment.
Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to “Hell” because “Hell” is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Sheol / Hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost.
The abode of the saved was called “Paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.”
The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a "great gulf fixed" (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to Heaven, He took the occupants of Paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10).
The lost side of Sheol / Hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future.
Thank U !!! So Jesus did went to Hell (the part called Paradise ) and got the occupants, those who were righteous and waiting for the Messiah....
Now... as far as He kicking the devil backside.... I have to search the Word to make sure it not in the spiritures.... YOU shown us that He did went to hell, thank You... so JM wasn't completely off after all.... 
AT
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RE: joyce meyer - 7/30/2007 5:52:09 PM
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earthless
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Joyce Meyer was completely off. This idea of hers and the others I listed a few posts ago are also completely unbiblical.
It was the death of Jesus on the Cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that substantiated our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9).
As He hung there on the Cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. "He became sin for us," 2 Corinthians 5:21 states: "For He hath made Him to be sin for us Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross.
When Jesus cried upon the Cross, "Oh, Father, why have You forsaken Me?" it was then He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." His suffering was completed in our stead.
His soul/spirit went to the Paradise side of Hades. Jesus did not go to Hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to His glory in His ascension.
Did Jesus go to Hell? No. Did Jesus go to Sheol / Hades? Yes.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 12:41:23 AM
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Hischild1994
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You know, even before I became a Christian, I didn't like her.
Then again, I don't like most televised pastors. Something strange happens to most of them when they get in front of a camera.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 12:33:17 PM
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Soxfan
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Jesus went into Hades, where the faithful were, not hell, where the wicked are punished. Joyce Meyer and other word of faith teachers do not believe in His victory the on the cross, but instead teach it was not completed on the cross but in a battle in hell with the devil. This imaginative battle actually brings destruction to the gospel where Jesus REALLY conquered Satan and crushed Satan's head on the cross, not in hell.
Colossians 2:15 says, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a public spectacle of them triumphing over them in it.” This victory happened on the cross (v.14), so what is Christ doing suffering in hell by these same principalities and powers, as claimed?
This doctrine is dangerous and affects many others. If Jesus went to hell, then Jesus did not speak the truth buy saying IT IS FINISHED on the cross. The death of Christ on the cross is then insufficient, not having the power by itself to save anyone. Thus, Paul could not have preached Christ was crucified for salvation..
Neither does Scripture say “Jesus took the keys of hell and death from Satan.” This again is a false word faith teaching. Neither did Satan steal the keys from Adam as the word faith teachers espouse, because Adam did not have them.
Here’s what the Scripture says in Rev. 1:18: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Where does it say he took them? He possessed them. Again, the word faith preachers go beyond what is written with their imagination and make this up. This is a great Bible myth. In Rev. 1:18 the word is Hades, not hell; the key is the emblem of power and authority. Christ can both save and destroy, can both kill and make alive; similarly Jesus said in john 10:18 that no man takes His life from him, He lays it down himself. Death is still under His dominion, and He can recall the dead whenever He pleases. He is the resurrection and the life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 tells us that “Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again.” There are no details like the WoF preachers have added with their fertile imaginations. It may make for good story-telling, but to cheer at this shows complete Biblical ignorance. Jesus said on the cross before He died, “Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit” (Matthew 27:50; John 19:30). If He landed in hell under Satan, then who is His Father in whom He committed his Spirit to? This is not a good picture; it mocks the most sacred time of Jesus' ministry, the very purpose for which the Son of God came to earth.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 6:13:36 PM
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kimonomyhouse
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This is my first post here. I registered for the express purpose of posting on this thread. I have been reading it for the past couple of days but have not read it all (it's way too long!). But...you knew there was a but coming, didn't you? ;) I felt led to say some things from my own heart about the topic.
I have watched and listened to Joyce Meyer and I think she has been, at times, too prideful and way too impressed with "her" ministry. I don't know what she said 16 years ago about Jesus going to hell - I didn't hear it. For what it's worth, I have absolutely no use for the WOF movement.
I also believe it is our Christian duty to examine and test every message we hear, and to share our knowledge with our Christian brothers and sisters when necessary. Some of Joyce Meyer's teachings are simply wrong, and we certainly need to point out those inconsistencies.
That said, I believe Joyce Meyer to be a woman who loves God but whose theology has some major holes in it. I don't think this is a deliberate thing on her part - she is sincerely mistaken. But there is a whole element of her teaching that isn't being mentioned here, an element in which she is absolutely right. She teaches A LOT about temperance and about obedience, and that we cannot be ruled by our emotions but by what God's plan is for our lives. She makes it very clear that we will NOT always get what we want, that sometimes God allows circumstances to test and strengthen our faith, and that He sometimes withholds blessings because He knows we are not spiritually ready for them. Above all, she cautions us not act according to our own understanding, but according to God's will, and in total obedience to His word.
I know (and she acknowledges) that she has made mistakes in her life, that she has sometimes struggled to understand the Gospel. Whatever her beliefs were in the past, it is just possible that she HAS repented for them - to God. It would be nice for us if she would publicly do that, but we don't know what she feels led to do, nor why.
I don't care what her house looks like, nor what is inside it. I don't care if she's had a dozen facelifts and buys her clothes on Rodeo Drive. It is her heart that will be judged, but not by me.
To those who would throw out ALL of her teachings because she is wrong (or has been in the past) about WOF, I would direct you to Phil 1: 15 - 18. I don't believe it's up to me to question her motives, but for those who do, please acknowledge that she does reach people where they are, and that is not something to be minimized. As a church, it is our duty to bring people to Christ. Joyce Meyer does that.
I know that my own pastor, who is a good and godly man, made some serious fleshly mistakes in the early part of his ministry. I suspect he will make more mistakes as his ministry matures. I also know he has repented for those mistakes, but not before the whole church. We do not know whether this has happened with Joyce Meyer or not.
Joyce Meyer is a child of God. I believe, that as her Christian brothers and sisters, it is our responsibility to pray for her, that she might become more and more discerning and more mature, according to God's will.
I have certainly made some grievous errors in interpretation in my walk with Jesus, but mine have not been recorded on TV so that people could refer back to them years later. Can any of us say that we were able to discern the truth of the scriptures, 100% of the time, from the day our precious Lord saved us? I certainly can't.
Sorry for the ramble.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 7:11:44 PM
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Bro_Shane
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kimonomyhouse, welcome - and I don't think your post qualifies as a ramble at all. I think I speak for everyone here when I say I sincerely hope that JM is a believer. I will speak for myself and say that the main problem I have with her is her errors in teaching. If she were to make a mistake every now and again then I would not be taking part in this thread. However, her error is continual and systematic. How much she has right is not an issue - we shouldn't expect a pat on the back for being obedient, which we are all called to be.
When you have the time, read over the thread and see her quotes. Do some research and you will see her error goes past being a mistake. She has never, that I have been able to find (and I have looked) repented of her false teaching about Jesus in Hell.
Anyway, welcome to the forums. Debate can be heated, but we are all friends at the end of the day - at least I hope so.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 8:55:11 PM
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kimonomyhouse
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Bro_Shane,
Thanks for the welcome, and for the kind words. However, with all due respect, I think you missed my point. We don't KNOW whether Ms. Meyer has repented or not. She apparently has not done so publicly, but we do not know what conversations she may have had with her heavenly Father.
And again with all due respect, what she does right is, IMO, definitely germane to the discussion. I refer you again to Phil 1:18.
We all make mistakes; we all misinterpret scripture - because none of us is infallible. Even the desciples sometimes showed a lamentable lack of understanding. Meyer's mistakes may be glaring, but so are her successes. She teaches the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the son of God. She teaches that Jesus died for us, and He sacrificed himself in order to save us from condemnation for our sins...condemnation we most certainly deserve. She teaches the Trinity. She teaches obedience. She teaches that the will of God supercedes anything and everything that we might want according to our own will. I have never heard her teach that we can become "little gods" or that Jesus went to hell and became reborn or that we can simply name what we want and it will be given to us simply because we want it...financial or otherwise. But I was not listening to her in 1991, so I may have missed it.
Yes, she does seem prideful and quite enamored with herself and her lifestyle. She speaks often of "her" ministry. She uses a lot of "positive thinking" motivational techniques in her teaching. Those techniques can be effective, but they are secular, not scriptural. For these reasons, I listen to her messages with caution, but I cannot condemn her.
It bothers me to see her compared to Hinn and his ilk. I believe she loves God and is/has been sorely mistaken in some of her beliefs, perhaps because she was led astray by some of the people she chose to associate herself with. Her choice, I understand. Her free will at work. We all have it, and we all use it wrongly at times. But at the end of the day, I believe she loves God, and that covers a lot of mistakes in my book.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 9:04:34 PM
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earthless
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We can venture to say that she has not repented of those heretical teachings. How so?
a) because she continues to preach Word of Faith doctrines to this very day
b) she continues to associate with known Word of Faith heretics such as Hinn, Osteen, Copelands, etc..
c) she has never once apologized to those who support her ministry of all those years of false teachings
d) she continues to make merchandise of those that lend an itching ear to her teachings
How I would rejoice to have a motivational and charismatic speaker such as Meyer repent of Word of Faith heresies and preach sound doctrine! What an amazing testimony that would be and what a blessing it would be for the church universal.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 9:44:07 PM
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Hischild1994
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Just wanted to say welcome to kimonomyhouse!
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 7/31/2007 10:20:41 PM
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kimonomyhouse
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Thanks, Hischild. 
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 12:46:40 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kimonomyhouse
Bro_Shane,
Thanks for the welcome, and for the kind words. However, with all due respect, I think you missed my point. We don't KNOW whether Ms. Meyer has repented or not. She apparently has not done so publicly, but we do not know what conversations she may have had with her heavenly Father.
As earthless has pointed out, repentance would be followed by public acknowledgment and she would refrain from teaching error any more. She continues to teach the same WoF heresy, therefore it's a safe bet she has not repented. To repent means to turn from, and she has turned from none of this. In fact, she has gotten worse.
quote:
And again with all due respect, what she does right is, IMO, definitely germane to the discussion. I refer you again to Phil 1:18.
The point is that the things she may get right are things that anyone who teaches are supposed to get right. The things she gets wrong deal with the bedrock doctrines of the faith.
quote:
We all make mistakes; we all misinterpret scripture - because none of us is infallible. Even the desciples sometimes showed a lamentable lack of understanding. Meyer's mistakes may be glaring, but so are her successes.
And, as a pastor, when I make a mistake I own up to it. Also, you can hardly define what she does as a mistake. A mistake is an accident - when error is repeated over and over it is done so on purpose.
As for her success, it depends by what standard you define it.
quote:
She teaches the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the son of God. She teaches that Jesus died for us, and He sacrificed himself in order to save us from condemnation for our sins...condemnation we most certainly deserve.
But she does not teach the Christ of scripture. Again, take the time to read this thread, see the quotes from her own mouth.
quote:
I have never heard her teach that we can become "little gods" or that Jesus went to hell and became reborn or that we can simply name what we want and it will be given to us simply because we want it...financial or otherwise. But I was not listening to her in 1991, so I may have missed it.
Look towards the top of this page. I have linked to a sermon that uses her quotes as she spoke them.
quote:
Yes, she does seem prideful and quite enamored with herself and her lifestyle. She speaks often of "her" ministry. She uses a lot of "positive thinking" motivational techniques in her teaching. Those techniques can be effective, but they are secular, not scriptural. For these reasons, I listen to her messages with caution, but I cannot condemn her.
I don't condemn her either. It's her teaching (and preaching, but that's another thread) that I have a problem with.
quote:
It bothers me to see her compared to Hinn and his ilk.
She says the same things. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
quote:
But at the end of the day, I believe she loves God, and that covers a lot of mistakes in my book.
It may cover her mistakes, but not her continual and unrepentant teaching of error.
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<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 1:13:06 AM
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kimonomyhouse
Posts: 33
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quote:
Look towards the top of this page. I have linked to a sermon that uses her quotes as she spoke them.
Sorry, I don't see the link. Could you repost it? Thanks.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 4:57:33 AM
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everjoyful
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joyce still believes that jesus went to hell.
i emailed the office some time ago.
they emailed back to say that joyce had asked them to answer me with some scriptures and to say that she believes that jesus died and went to hell and rose again.
i am afraid i deleted the email and so cannot recall the verses given, however i do remember that they were still not very clear but i could see why she held that conclusion.
i can understand the arguments here that its a translation problem because we know that he went to preach to those in prison who had died. as they were not in heaven one could conclude that they were in hell. but as for suggesting jesus was tormented in hell? i dont believe that. the battle was finished on the cross. i still have some very small questions about that but not enough to trouble me or wobble my walk. for me jesus' death on the cross was the isngle most important thing that has ever happened.
i would say that joyce's conclusion is taken from scripture-she may just be reading it in a different way to those of us who disagree with her. in the same way that many of us argue about the meaning of the scriptures on women preaching etc. we are all reading the same passages in different ways. if she is wrong i think it's a genuine misunderstanding and not a deliberate disregard for truth.
joyces teachings on overcoming negative mindsets and learning to be obediant are priceless and i myself have learned quite alot. her ministry really centres around her journey and what she learns from her mistakes. so naturally she is not going to be a solid perfected christian or else she wont have anything left to learn and share with us.
there has been an accusation here that she talks too much about her wonderful ministry. i have to say that i dont think that's pride in her achievements. i believe she is really just amazed that god can take a women like her and bring her so far and use her in a way to reach so many people.
i like joyce. but i am concerned about her increasing cozying up to wof and very dodgy preachers. i hate her interview shows where her guests seem to spout out so much nonsence. i prefer her talks.
perhaps we ought to pray for joyce here as a group of christians who want jesus' truth be known.
please pray with me and add anything i miss. it's important to pray for all teachers so that people wont be mislead.
dear lord.
we want to thank you that you have had your hand on joyce's life. we thank you for bringing her to repentance and for inspiring her to seek a life with you in victory.
thank you for the way that you have worked through joyce to reach millions of people around the globe, to help bring them to repentance and for inspiring countless christians to seek a life of obediance and victory instead of being sunday christians. thank you for her books and teaching series' that have helped many people seeking answers and hope.
lord we lift joyce up to you and we ask that you strengthen her in her walk. we ask that you keep revealing truth to joyce and that you will ensure that her teaching is always in line with your scriptures and your will. we pray also that as the ministry grows in success and finance that the money will always be used in accordance to your will and that all the glory will be given to you. we pray that joyce will be strong in her faith and that she may not be influenced by other preachers without first seeking your will.
lord we pray that you will give us all strong leaders who have a heart for your word lord and that there will be an increase in genuine truth driven preachers. as your coming is ever closer lord we ask for more anointed preachers so that more and more of us can be inspired and instructed to live lives devoted to you.
in jesus' name amen.
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 8:28:35 AM
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earthless
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everjoyful,
Can you please address the rank heresy and false teachings Joyce Meyer speaks day in and day out?
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 1:25:02 PM
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Soxfan
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
i like joyce. but i am concerned about her increasing cozying up to wof and very dodgy preachers. i hate her interview shows where her guests seem to spout out so much nonsence. i prefer her talks.
Just a thought.....Could it be because she is a WoF preacher that shares the same nonsense?
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 1:26:24 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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Honestly I've never watched her program.
When I'm flipping channels and briefly stop on her, my overall brief impression is that I'm being yelled at by an angry school lunch lady.
"It's fifty cents more for that milk!"
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 1:41:58 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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I have a window open to her website. There is a description of a feeding program but no place to designate the money to go only to the feeding program.
On to the giving page.
There is a picture of Joyce Meyer handing a dish to a child. It appears to contain rice-only a single item whatever it is.
After reading of her alleged lavish spending, the photograph is unsettling to me.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 1:42:16 PM
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everjoyful
Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline
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wow my goodness you were all quick to attack me. did anyone read what i wrote? did anyone pray for her?
i am bowing out of this thread because it's quite clear that if you don't want to tear her to pieces then you are in the wrong place.
i offer you guys peace and move along.
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john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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