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RE: joyce meyer - 8/1/2007 1:46:18 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
The whole purpose of these threads is to discuss and compare the teachings of these various ministry leaders.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 1:49:48 PM
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Psalms274
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I was perusing through the post, and have seen a bit (not much) of Joyce Meyers teachings ... am not familiar with what one poster called "satan tormenting Christ," but I do know that the doctrine that many recite in the Apostles Creed about descending into hell seems to be a point of contention here .... I found a tidbit that may talks about this phrase, the controversy and the scriptures used to back it up:
The final clause in this sequence, "He descended into hell," is the most controversial in the Apostle's Creed. Indeed, some denominations consider it optional or refuse to include it at all. The problem with this phrase begins with what it connotes. To some, the descent into hell represents the physical agony of death upon the Cross. It was hellish in its pain. To others, the word hell means Hades or Sheol, the collective abode of the dead, divided into Paradise or Abraham's Bosom--the state of God-fearing souls--and Gehenna, the state of ungodly souls. Thus the descent into hell may suggest that the Son of God carried the sins of the world to hell; or the Son of God carried Good News of deliverance to the godly dead such as Lazarus the beggar and the repentant thief. A third-century Syrian Creed speaks of Jesus, "who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and departed in peace, in order to preach to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the saints concerning the end of the world and the resurrection of the dead."
Still others believe that the descent into hell account for the problem of God's justice by providing an opportunity for all mankind--in eternity as well as in time--to hear the message of redemption from the Word Himself. But whatever interpretation one accepts, the scriptural passages upon which this teaching is based must be studied closely. Some of the standard texts are Job 38:17, Psalm 68:18-22; Matthew 12:38-41; Acts 2:22-32; Romans 10:7; Ephesians 4:7-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20, and 1 Peter 4:6.
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I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 1:49:54 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
wow my goodness you were all quick to attack me. did anyone read what i wrote? did anyone pray for her?
i am bowing out of this thread because it's quite clear that if you don't want to tear her to pieces then you are in the wrong place.
i offer you guys peace and move along.
Why is this always what supporters of her teachings do? It saddens me greatly that we have only asked for someone, anyone, to take what she teaches and test it in light of Scripture.
Why is that being hateful and "wanting to tear her into pieces"? Do these brothers and sisters in Christ not have entire sections of the Bible? Or have they been ripped out of their copies?
everyjoyful - we have and do pray for her and other Word of Faith false teachers and false prophets.
But we are not being hateful against her as a person nor do we wish her any harm.
But we are sincerely and seriously concerned about what she teaches to the masses and how much of it is rank heresy and an insult to the faith we hold to be true.
Please.. I implore you.. please just see the links/audio/video clips we have included that prove what she teaches that is a problem and fill us in on how it is not to be a concern for Christians.
Please.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 3:11:11 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
wow my goodness you were all quick to attack me. did anyone read what i wrote? did anyone pray for her?
i am bowing out of this thread because it's quite clear that if you don't want to tear her to pieces then you are in the wrong place.
i offer you guys peace and move along.
everjoyful, there have been many of us that have indicated that we pray for her as well as the other false teachers discussed in these forums.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 4:45:07 PM
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kimonomyhouse
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I think I may be coming at this from a different point of view than most people here.
My major in college was psychology. For many years, as part of my secular job, I was a motivational speaker. Many of Joyce's "name it and claim it" statements actually are, IMO, rooted in the negative vs positive self-talk theories of many motivational speakers.
I no longer am a motivational speaker, but there is validity to those theories. They are not scriptural, but they nevertheless are valid. If we speak of ourselves and to ourselves in negative terms, our subconscious mind will believe what it hears and our conscious mind will act accordingly. There is a lot more to the theory but this is probably not the right venue to explore it.
At any rate, Joyce Meyer intersperses psychological motivational theory with scriptural fact. Instead of teaching that we use positive self-talk as in, "I am a worthy person," (which she knows is untrue), she teaches that we use scripture, as in, "All things work for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose" and "Let us not be weary in well doing for in due season we shall reap a reward if we faint not." She changes the focus away from believing in ourselves to believing in what God can do through us. If that's name it claim it, so be it. I don't believe it is.
I will confess that one reason I am drawn to her is that I identify with her. We have similar personalities, and it would behoove us both to filter our words better than we do. I also wonder if she would be more well-received if she had a softer voice and a sweeter demeanor.
I would not ever claim Joyce Meyer as my spiritual leader. In fact, I'm not sure I would classify her as a preacher, but as a Christian motivator. She has inspired me to be a doer of the word, not just a hearer, in a way that my pastor never has, simply because he focuses on the intellectual acceptance of Christianity but seldom addresses how to apply those teachings to my life as I must live it - in this world, but not of it.
As far as the theory that Jesus went to hell and that His sacrifice on the cross was not enough to save us, I simply have never heard this before. As Joyce would say, I know that I know that I know that Jesus dying on the cross was the ultimate sacrifice that saved me. Any theory that He went to hell is something I have never heard before. I have not studied the scripture on this topic, but please be assured I will do so. And as time permits, I will go back and read the whole of this thread. It might change my mind.
For what it's worth, I have never given money to JMM or any other TV ministry. I have listened to her CDs - bought used on eBay or Amazon, but never through her website.
I believe God gave me the gift of discernment to seperate the wheat from the chaff, in Meyer's teachings as well as those from other teachers. I don't agree with some of what she is saying, but what I do agree with has helped me function as a more effective Christian. Your mileage may vary.
And with that, I think I'm done here. Everyone has an opinion, and every right to it.
May God bless you, whether we see eye to eye on this issue or not.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 7:19:00 PM
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earthless
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Exactly.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 11:02:29 PM
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kimonomyhouse
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quote:
I highly disagree that they are ever valid theories because only theories backed by the Bible are valid to me...but then of course, they wouldn't be theories, they'd be truth.
I agree that they are theories - that's why I referred to them in this way:
quote:
Joyce Meyer intersperses psychological motivational theory with scriptural fact.
Nevertheless, a theory (or a fact) can be secular and still be valid. For example, the theory that mold could somehow kill bacteria was a secular theory until it was proven to be fact. But it was and is valid, but not scriptural.
quote:
However, I have no problem if you and Joyce want to present that stuff in a secular venue to a secular audience,
As I said,
quote:
I no longer am a motivational speaker
but I certainly appreciate having your blessing to do so if I wish.
I do teach a Bible study class, and I would not hesitate to use the verses I mentioned in my post to encourage people not to to falter in their faith when they are going through a rough patch. Using scripture transfers the method from secular to Biblical, and it is still valid.
"Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds." Hebrews 10:24
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/1/2007 11:40:43 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
Joyce Meyer intersperses psychological motivational theory with scriptural fact.
I do teach a Bible study class, and I would not hesitate to use the verses I mentioned in my post to encourage people not to to falter in their faith when they are going through a rough patch. Using scripture transfers the method from secular to Biblical, and it is still valid.
Fantastic! Just don't take the Scripture out of context and misapply it like Joyce does!
Ever try exegetical teaching? I highly recommend it. You'll escape the temptation to manipulate God's Word so it matches up with human theories and topics. You have to know your stuff better and study harder, but it's much safer for everyone.
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/2/2007 2:11:25 AM
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kimonomyhouse
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Kat, thanks so much for that tip. If you knew my pastor, you would know that letting the Bible speak for itself and studying and teaching scripture in context is an absolute requirement in my church, especially for those of us who are led to teach. If he believed for a second that I wasn't doing that, I'm quite sure he would have a heart-to-heart with me, and pronto.
I teach as I am led by the Holy Spirit, and would never knowingly take scripture out of context or use it to manipulate God's word, not in any fashion. My fleshly nature may not always like what the Bible says, but I would never knowingly corrupt it. I love God - why would I want to hurt Him?
But again, I thank you for your obvious concern.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/2/2007 8:00:20 AM
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earthless
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What's different here is that these teachings of theirs are not mere mistakes. For they teach them for years even when concerned Christians approach them in correction. Many of these Word of Faith teachers even rebuke these concerned believers with death threats and murderous words.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/2/2007 8:28:36 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kimonomyhouse
As far as the theory that Jesus went to hell and that His sacrifice on the cross was not enough to save us, I simply have never heard this before.
From her lips you our ears:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=260772221
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/3/2007 12:50:30 AM
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kimonomyhouse
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Soxfan, thanks for the link. When I said I had never heard this before, I meant from anyone. No matter. Joyce, and anyone else who preaches this, is seriously mistaken. Misled but sincere, perhaps, but still very much mistaken.
I find it interesting that, as far as I know, Joyce's current teaching no longer includes this...this...I don't know what to call it. The only way I know to describe it is totally off the wall. It is hard for me to believe that anyone could embrace this belief for long.
That's all I have to say right now on the subject. I need to digest this info before I say anything more. I will say, however, that whatever conclusion I reach will be based on the whole of Joyce's teachings so far as I can determine what they are, and after much prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit.
Have a blessed day.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/6/2007 8:45:58 PM
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earthless
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anointedtoteach - did you read my reply to your question?
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2579518
Was wondering if you had a chance to get to it yet.
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RE: Joyce Meyer - 8/7/2007 12:19:01 AM
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anointedtoteach
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
anointedtoteach - did you read my reply to your question?
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2579518
Was wondering if you had a chance to get to it yet.
I was out of town to a Women Convention.....
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 1:00:42 AM
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anointedtoteach
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Joyce Meyer was completely off. This idea of hers and the others I listed a few posts ago are also completely unbiblical.
It was the death of Jesus on the Cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that substantiated our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9).
As He hung there on the Cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. "He became sin for us," 2 Corinthians 5:21 states: "For He hath made Him to be sin for us Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross.
When Jesus cried upon the Cross, "Oh, Father, why have You forsaken Me?" it was then He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." His suffering was completed in our stead.
His soul/spirit went to the Paradise side of Hades. Jesus did not go to Hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to His glory in His ascension.
Did Jesus go to Hell? No. Did Jesus go to Sheol / Hades? Yes.
Ok let look at some scriptures:
Psalms 16
16:9
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
16:11
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Home > Lexicons > Hebrew > Sh@'owl (Hell)
The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 07585 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
lwaX from (07592)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Sh@'owl TWOT - 2303c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
sheh-ole' Noun Feminine
Definition
sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
the underworld Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
place of no return without praise of God wicked sent there for punishment righteous not abandoned to it of the place of exile (fig) of extreme degradation in sin
King James Word Usage - Total: 65
grave 31, hell 31, pit 3
Acts 2 Read This Chapter
2:25
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always * * before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
2:26
Therefore * * did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover * * also my flesh shall rest in hope:
2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
2:28
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely * * speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Home > Lexicons > Greek > Hades
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 86 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
a/&dh/FONT> from (1) (as negative particle) and (1492)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hades 1:146,22
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hah'-dace Noun Location
Definition
name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
King James Word Usage - Total: 11
hell 10, grave 1
Sheol is the Hebrew Word for Hell & Hades is the Greek Word for Hell
How can you call someone false just because U interpret the scriptures differently... The Bible Call Sheol and Hades HELL.
You have a problem with Jesus going to hell, the lower part of the earth or the Heart of the Earth. to set the captive free, the righteous who were looking for the Messiah. JM point ppl to Christ and not self....
AT
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 11:10:38 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: anointedtoteach
Sheol is the Hebrew Word for Hell & Hades is the Greek Word for Hell
How can you call someone false just because U interpret the scriptures differently... The Bible Call Sheol and Hades HELL.
You have a problem with Jesus going to hell, the lower part of the earth or the Heart of the Earth. to set the captive free, the righteous who were looking for the Messiah. JM point ppl to Christ and not self....
AT
Luke 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Here we see that Hell is not one place, but divided into two places. The unrighteous went to Sheol/Hades and the righteous to Abraham's Bosom/Paradise. You are trying to construct a bridge between what JM teaches and what scripture actually says by tossing in the English translation when it suits your purpose.
Joyce Meyer clearly said that Christ suffered at the hands of Satan and demons. This is not true because Satan is not in Sheol/Hades, the work of redemption was finished on the cross (therefore, there was no need for Satan to extract his "pound of flesh"), the righteous dead would not have been in a place where they were in torment as the rich man was.
She is wrong, and you should stop trying to defend her heretical teachings by trying to make them say something other than what she has actually said with her own mouth and written in a pamplet for distribution.
She points people to a false gospel and how to make herself rich at the expense of others.
< Message edited by Bro_Shane -- 8/7/2007 12:23:14 PM >
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 11:40:16 AM
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earthless
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Brother Shane saved my ten minutes, thank you. I pray that anointedtoteach can see this teaching from Joyce Meyer's is not only false, but blasphemy and a complete twisting of the precious shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 1:52:29 PM
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anointedtoteach
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: anointedtoteach
Sheol is the Hebrew Word for Hell & Hades is the Greek Word for Hell
How can you call someone false just because U interpret the scriptures differently... The Bible Call Sheol and Hades HELL.
You have a problem with Jesus going to hell, the lower part of the earth or the Heart of the Earth. to set the captive free, the righteous who were looking for the Messiah. JM point ppl to Christ and not self....
AT
Luke 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Here we see that Hell is not one place, but divided into two places. The unrighteous went to Sheol/Hades and the righteous to Abraham's Bosom/Paradise. You are trying to construct a bridge between what JM teaches and what scripture actually says by tossing in the English translation when it suits your purpose.
Joyce Meyer clearly said that Christ suffered at the hands of Satan and demons. This is not true because Satan is not in Sheol/Hades, the work of redemption was finished on the cross (therefore, there was no need for Satan to extract his "pound of flesh"), the righteous dead would not have been in a place where they were in torment as the rich man was.
She is wrong, and you should stop trying to defend her heretical teachings by trying to make them say something other than what she has actually said with her own mouth and written in a pamplet for distribution.
She points people to a false gospel and how to make herself rich at the expense of others.
Hell is divided into several parts, Sheol/Hades(Psalm 16:10/Acts 2:27,31),Gehenna-lake of fire (Rev.20:10), Tartarus-prison of the fallen angels (II Peter 2:4), Abussos or Abyss- bottomless pit(Rev.9:1-12), outer darkness (Mat. 8:12), and Paradise.
earthless said Jesus didn't go to hell. He said Jesus went to hades and sheol.... I was just showing him, that is hell.
As far as JM teaching... I don't watch her much, only a few time. Enough to know she is not a false teacher. NO ONE is an 100% correct in their doctrine and teaching.... we miss and hit at time. Scriptue let us know Jesus did go to hell, lower part of the earth or the heart of the earth. We do know he ministered to the righteous that die before his resurrection and led them out of paradise (hell). As far as He beating up Satan to get the keys to hell and death... I don't know. He do have the keys to hell and death. The Bible don't give everything in detials...
Now this enough to label JM as a false teacher? NO NO NO....
AT
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 3:18:40 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: anointedtoteach
Hell is divided into several parts, Sheol/Hades(Psalm 16:10/Acts 2:27,31),Gehenna-lake of fire (Rev.20:10), Tartarus-prison of the fallen angels (II Peter 2:4), Abussos or Abyss- bottomless pit(Rev.9:1-12), outer darkness (Mat. 8:12), and Paradise.
Hell is not divided into several parts. Before the cross there was Sheol/Hades and Paradise/Abraham's Bosom. Now the only place populated is Sheol/Hades where the unrighteous dead go to await final judgment. It is at thr Great White Throne judgment that the unrighteous dead will then die the second death and be cast into the lake of fire/Gehanna. The lake of fire/Gehenna is not the same and it is not the same place as Sheol/Hades.
quote:
earthless said Jesus didn't go to hell. He said Jesus went to hades and sheol.... I was just showing him, that is hell.
Sheol/Hades is often used to speak of the place where both the righteous and unrighteous dead went prior to the cross where it was understood that Paradise/Abraham's Bosom was a part of that where the righteous dead went. The thing here is that where the righteous dead were, there was no suffering and no torment. JM said Jesus was tormented. She could not have been referring to Paradise/Abraham's Bosom. Thus, regardless of the interchangability of some of the names/usages of those names, her teaching on the matter was still false and she has yet to publicly repent for it.
quote:
As far as JM teaching... I don't watch her much, only a few time. Enough to know she is not a false teacher.
With all due respect, if you have only watched her a few times then you do not have a sufficient amount of information with which to form a valid judgment of that teaching. This thread has listed several direct quotes from her, not out of context or twisted as some claim, and then refuted with scripture.
quote:
NO ONE is an 100% correct in their doctrine and teaching.... we miss and hit at time.
Perfection is not the issue here, it is obedience. The issue here is not making a mistake or a slip of the tongue, like saying Philemon when you mean Philippians. To try and pass this off by saying that no one is perfect is to ignore the real issue here - her systematic, continual, and unapologetic teaching of error.
quote:
Scriptue let us know Jesus did go to hell, lower part of the earth or the heart of the earth. We do know he ministered to the righteous that die before his resurrection and led them out of paradise (hell). As far as He beating up Satan to get the keys to hell and death... I don't know. He do have the keys to hell and death. The Bible don't give everything in detials...
Revelation 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
It gives everything we need to know about this situation. Nowhere in scripture are we told He never had them or that they were given to Him at some time. There is no reason to believe He has not always had them.
Look to scripture. What JM says about the torture of Christ is nowhere to be found. This is not a simple mistake or slip of the tongue - you must make the effort to say this. If you are going to teach this you have to find a way to justify it. This is not an accident, it is intentional.
quote:
Now this enough to label JM as a false teacher? NO NO NO....
Systematic, open, continual, and unapologetic teaching of error qualifies anyone as a false teacher. Whether it's you, me, or the boy next door. God's word is the rule by which teaching is judged. JM falls short - way short.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 10:08:43 PM
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kimonomyhouse
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quote:
Hell is not divided into several parts. Before the cross there was Sheol/Hades and Paradise/Abraham's Bosom. Now the only place populated is Sheol/Hades where the unrighteous dead go to await final judgment. It is at thr Great White Throne judgment that the unrighteous dead will then die the second death and be cast into the lake of fire/Gehanna. The lake of fire/Gehenna is not the same and it is not the same place as Sheol/Hades.
Could you give me some scripture reference for this, please? I'm still studying this. Thanks.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 10:13:33 PM
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kimonomyhouse
Posts: 33
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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Sorry, I hit "OK" before I intended to.
Can anyone tell me when the last time was that JM preached Jesus in hell being tormented by Satan? Thanks again.
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However, I have no problem if you and Joyce want to present that stuff in a secular venue to a secular audience, but I have a big problem if you present it in a church setting with a Bible resting on the pulpit to an audience expecting to hear the Truth of God's Word.
