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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 11:28:24 PM
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SD456
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Yes!!! AnointedtoTeach, it is so good to hear someone who speaks, not only with scriptural wisdom, but with the Grace and mercy of God on their lips. 
You are truly a breath of FRESH air!!
You are absolutely correct. No one is 100% correct in their understanding of doctrine, not even the people on this forum. I think when they get to heaven they will be very surprised when Jesus highlights the areas of doctrine where they were incorrect.
Scripture says that the power of life and death is in our words. Christ dwells in us and so we are a supernatural people. Our words do carry life and death in them and what we speak truly holds weight.
Joyce Meyer is a wonderful teacher. I don't agree with everything she says, but then I don't agree with every thing that any teacher I've heard says. Often times teachers/preachers change in their understanding of certain doctrines over the life of their walk with Christ. I heard Jack Hayford once say that he taught things 25 years ago that he now has a completly different understanding of and he can't believe that he taught what he did!!
Joyce Meyer has been used by God to bring healing, deliverance, and salvation to countless thousands of people, myself included.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 8/7/2007 11:35:47 PM >
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/7/2007 11:32:48 PM
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SD456
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None of you guys have any definite idea about the differences of Hell, sheol, lake of fire, etc. You are taking verses that make only a brief mention of those places, and as far as you know God is talking about the exact same place and just calling it different names. Jesus is called different names, isn't He? Or perhaps they are definately all different places, who knows.
You guys are arguing over something that cannot be proven in this life - yes theorized - but not proven as fact. How ridiculous is this??? Doesn't the bible call this vain arguments? 
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 8:07:47 AM
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earthless
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SD - bro_shane, Figment and others have brought Scripture to show what they are stating. Your last post here shows you have not bothered to read what these brothers and sisters in Christ have taken the time to explain.
Please do so if you're truly interested in this topic.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 8:16:02 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Joyce Meyer has been used by God to bring healing, deliverance, and salvation to countless thousands of people, myself included.
And Spurgeon has been used to identify the state of the church today (read my signature below)
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 10:52:08 AM
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kimonomyhouse
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quote:
quote:
Hell is not divided into several parts. Before the cross there was Sheol/Hades and Paradise/Abraham's Bosom. Now the only place populated is Sheol/Hades where the unrighteous dead go to await final judgment. It is at thr Great White Throne judgment that the unrighteous dead will then die the second death and be cast into the lake of fire/Gehanna. The lake of fire/Gehenna is not the same and it is not the same place as Sheol/Hades.
Could you give me some scripture reference for this, please? I'm still studying this. Thanks.
Can anyone tell me when the last time was that JM preached Jesus in hell being tormented by Satan? Thanks again.
Just bringing these questions to the current page so they don't get lost in the shuffle.
Kimono
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 11:43:04 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
You are absolutely correct. No one is 100% correct in their understanding of doctrine, not even the people on this forum. I think when they get to heaven they will be very surprised when Jesus highlights the areas of doctrine where they were incorrect.
Do people not read anymore?
quote:
Scripture says that the power of life and death is in our words. Christ dwells in us and so we are a supernatural people. Our words do carry life and death in them and what we speak truly holds weight.
In context, the power to live eternally or to die the second death. This does not mean we can, by weilding faith as a force, make just anything happen.
quote:
Joyce Meyer is a wonderful teacher.
Only if you are not interested in what scripture actually says. If this is the case, then I'm sure she's just peachy. If not, then she is a heretic.
quote:
Often times teachers/preachers change in their understanding of certain doctrines over the life of their walk with Christ. I heard Jack Hayford once say that he taught things 25 years ago that he now has a completly different understanding of and he can't believe that he taught what he did!!
At least he admitted it, JM has yet to admit error.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
None of you guys have any definite idea about the differences of Hell, sheol, lake of fire, etc. You are taking verses that make only a brief mention of those places, and as far as you know God is talking about the exact same place and just calling it different names. Jesus is called different names, isn't He? Or perhaps they are definately all different places, who knows.
You guys are arguing over something that cannot be proven in this life - yes theorized - but not proven as fact. How ridiculous is this??? Doesn't the bible call this vain arguments?
Again, I am losing faith in people's ability to read and comprehend what they read.
We have been given enough information on the subject to know what we are talking about as it pertains to the discussion at hand. Do you believe that Christ had to suffer in Hell at the hands of Satan to complete the redemptive work?
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 11:44:38 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kimonomyhouse
quote:
quote:
Hell is not divided into several parts. Before the cross there was Sheol/Hades and Paradise/Abraham's Bosom. Now the only place populated is Sheol/Hades where the unrighteous dead go to await final judgment. It is at thr Great White Throne judgment that the unrighteous dead will then die the second death and be cast into the lake of fire/Gehanna. The lake of fire/Gehenna is not the same and it is not the same place as Sheol/Hades.
Could you give me some scripture reference for this, please? I'm still studying this. Thanks.
Can anyone tell me when the last time was that JM preached Jesus in hell being tormented by Satan? Thanks again.
Just bringing these questions to the current page so they don't get lost in the shuffle.
Kimono
For the sake of brevity, I'll give the main citations without listing entire verse or passages:
References to Gehenna: Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 25:15, 33. Mark 9:43, 45; 9:47. Luke 12:5. James 3:6.
Location of Gehenna: Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; II Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13. These show Gehenna is a place away from the Earth in total darkness
These should get you started and, if you have a cross reference or study Bible, they will take you through both Hades/Sheol, Gehenna, and the Lake of Fire (Revelation).
Abraham's Bosom: Luke 16:22-31
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 12:47:50 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1548
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
None of you guys have any definite idea about the differences of Hell, sheol, lake of fire, etc. You are taking verses that make only a brief mention of those places, and as far as you know God is talking about the exact same place and just calling it different names. Jesus is called different names, isn't He? Or perhaps they are definately all different places, who knows.
You guys are arguing over something that cannot be proven in this life - yes theorized - but not proven as fact. How ridiculous is this??? Doesn't the bible call this vain arguments?
Jesus went into Hades, where the faithful were, not hell, where the wicked are punished. Joyce Meyer and other word of faith teachers do not believe in His victory the on the cross, but instead teach it was not completed on the cross but in a battle in hell with the devil. This imaginative battle actually brings destruction to the gospel where Jesus REALLY conquered Satan and crushed Satan's head on the cross, not in hell.
Colossians 2:15 says, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a public spectacle of them triumphing over them in it.” This victory happened on the cross (v.14), so what is Christ doing suffering in hell by these same principalities and powers, as claimed?
This doctrine is dangerous and affects many others. If Jesus went to hell, then Jesus did not speak the truth buy saying IT IS FINISHED on the cross. The death of Christ on the cross is then insufficient, not having the power by itself to save anyone. Thus, Paul could not have preached Christ was crucified for salvation..
Neither does Scripture say “Jesus took the keys of hell and death from Satan.” This again is a false word faith teaching. Neither did Satan steal the keys from Adam as the word faith teachers espouse, because Adam did not have them.
Here’s what the Scripture says in Rev. 1:18: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Where does it say he took them? He possessed them. Again, the word faith preachers go beyond what is written with their imagination and make this up. This is a great Bible myth. In Rev. 1:18 the word is Hades, not hell; the key is the emblem of power and authority. Christ can both save and destroy, can both kill and make alive; similarly Jesus said in john 10:18 that no man takes His life from him, He lays it down himself. Death is still under His dominion, and He can recall the dead whenever He pleases. He is the resurrection and the life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 tells us that “Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again.” There are no details like the WoF preachers have added with their fertile imaginations. It may make for good story-telling, but to cheer at this shows complete Biblical ignorance. Jesus said on the cross before He died, “Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit” (Matthew 27:50; John 19:30). If He landed in hell under Satan, then who is His Father in whom He committed his Spirit to? This is not a good picture; it mocks the most sacred time of Jesus' ministry, the very purpose for which the Son of God came to earth.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 1:07:18 PM
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sirwintery
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I was shocked when I first heard the "Jesus suffered in hell" teaching at a WoF church. There was no doubt the preacher meant to say that Jesus suffered in the flames of hell. He went so far as to say it was as a "burnt offering".
If the teacher doesn't understand that "It is finished" (John 19:30) means finished on the cross, they are off on something that is fundamental to salvation. Chew slowly and check for bones. Spit it out and select another restaurant.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 3:05:22 PM
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SD456
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quote:
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Where does it say he took them? He possessed them. Again, the word faith preachers go beyond what is written with their imagination and make this up. This is a great Bible myth.
My understanding and study of scripture leads me to believe that Jesus was given the keys of Hell when he was resurrected. Scripture says that he conquered death and the victory over it at that point. That understanding is just as viable as yours, because scripturally you cannot prove that Jesus always had the keys in his hand as he had not conquered hell and death until his resurrection.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 3:28:12 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
My understanding and study of scripture leads me to believe that Jesus was given the keys of Hell when he was resurrected.
Then please post the scripture references that led you to this conclusion.
quote:
Scripture says that he conquered death and the victory over it at that point.
Where specifically are you referring to?
quote:
That understanding is just as viable as yours, because scripturally you cannot prove that Jesus always had the keys in his hand as he had not conquered hell and death until his resurrection.
No, it's not. By your logic when Jesus tells the Pharisees that "before Abraham was I AM" that He only could have been God if He mentioned before hand that He was/is God. What you are putting forth is that, lacking a clear scriptural basis for such, things only come to be (or to be true) at their first mention. By this same logic God could not have created matter until the point He actually did so.
Colossians 2:14-15 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Where does this speak of the triumph taking place?
Romans 4:25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
What does this say about His being "raised again?"
Colossians 1:18-20 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; [20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
How was peace made? Did it include suffering at the hands of Satan in Hell (however we define it)? If so, why did Paul leave this out?
The cross is associated with the faith and with victory, not any descent to torture - it simply isn't there, period.
If you feel you have a scriptural case for this, I would like to see it.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 3:38:31 PM
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SD456
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quote:
quote:
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Scripture says that the power of life and death is in our words. Christ dwells in us and so we are a supernatural people. Our words do carry life and death in them and what we speak truly holds weight.
In context, the power to live eternally or to die the second death. This does not mean we can, by weilding faith as a force, make just anything happen.
In Prov 18:21 it says that the tongue has the power of life and death. You are really morphing this scripture as something unrecognizable when you put to it the meaning of the afterlife - the power to live eternally or to die the second death????? Come on, now. This verse is clearly speaking about the power of our words.
It's alright if you choose to say that that verse has nothing to do with the power of faith working through our words because that is all you are able to understand. It's OK if others choose to believe that there is power for good or harm in our words, for life or death, cursing or blessing, or for creative faith-filled prayer. It doesn't make them heretics.
Of course it doesn't mean we can make anything happen. You are really stretching people's words there. It means that whatever is the Father's will can happen, but WE must exercise the faith through our words.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 4:08:42 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
quote:
quote:
Scripture says that the power of life and death is in our words. Christ dwells in us and so we are a supernatural people. Our words do carry life and death in them and what we speak truly holds weight.
In context, the power to live eternally or to die the second death. This does not mean we can, by weilding faith as a force, make just anything happen.
In Prov 18:21 it says that the tongue has the power of life and death. You are really morphing this scripture as something unrecognizable when you put to it the meaning of the afterlife - the power to live eternally or to die the second death????? Come on, now. This verse is clearly speaking about the power of our words.
OK, then when was the last time you spoke against someone and they died? Or when you spoke for a dead person and they rose from the dead? It's never happened? Then that's my point.
quote:
It's alright if you choose to say that that verse has nothing to do with the power of faith working through our words because that is all you are able to understand. It's OK if others choose to believe that there is power for good or harm in our words, for life or death, cursing or blessing, or for creative faith-filled prayer. It doesn't make them heretics.
No, what makes them heretics is when they teach that faith can be used as a force under which God does our bidding. The power of faith does not work through out words. Please show me more than a single piece of scripture lifted from its context to prove otherwise.
quote:
Of course it doesn't mean we can make anything happen. You are really stretching people's words there.
No, that's what you just said when you said, "...the power of faith working through our words because that is all you are able to understand." I am using your words.
quote:
It means that whatever is the Father's will can happen, but WE must exercise the faith through our words.
No, faith is not shown through words. It is shown through deed. Words are for communication, which can either be honest or dishonest. As to the Father's will, why do you think that crooks and wolves like Joyce Meyer and Paula White tell people that it is God's will for you to be rich, or that it's God's will for you to always be healed? If you believe it's God's will for His children to be rich, then you have no problem with JM, Paula White, Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copeland earning millions - and you can get in on the action too if you just "sow a seed!"
These people are shipwrecking the faith of countless believers who care more for feeding their flesh than for actually reading God's word, and they are leading many lost people down a dead-end road by preaching a gospel that uses Jesus' name but is deviod of His actual character, power, and gospel.
Christ did not die so I, as a pastor, could have a fancy car. He did not die so that I could have a multi-million dollar house while those that pay the bills sow seed after seed, waiting for something that is not going to come through the power of some ignorant TV puplit pimp's foolish and destructive words. Joyce Meyer and her ilk are all hereitcs that could care less for the hungry and sick they milk for their next private jet - and then when the promised prosperity or healing never arrives they have the unadulterated and unmitigated gall to tell them it was because they didn't have enough faith.
They need to repent. They need to stop this foolishness but, hey, they're just making their faith and words work for them, right?
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 4:42:56 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
quote:
quote:
Scripture says that the power of life and death is in our words. Christ dwells in us and so we are a supernatural people. Our words do carry life and death in them and what we speak truly holds weight.
In context, the power to live eternally or to die the second death. This does not mean we can, by weilding faith as a force, make just anything happen.
In Prov 18:21 it says that the tongue has the power of life and death. You are really morphing this scripture as something unrecognizable when you put to it the meaning of the afterlife - the power to live eternally or to die the second death????? Come on, now. This verse is clearly speaking about the power of our words.
It's alright if you choose to say that that verse has nothing to do with the power of faith working through our words because that is all you are able to understand. It's OK if others choose to believe that there is power for good or harm in our words, for life or death, cursing or blessing, or for creative faith-filled prayer. It doesn't make them heretics.
Of course it doesn't mean we can make anything happen. You are really stretching people's words there. It means that whatever is the Father's will can happen, but WE must exercise the faith through our words.
The problem though is that they teach faith is a force (it is not) and that words are the containers of this force (wrong again).
Jesus predicted for His followers poverty, rejection, and persecution. His disciples were willing to face the tyrant's brandished steel, the lion's gory mane, and the fires of a thousand deaths because they knew that they were not of this world.
They were merely pilgrims and sojourners in a foreign land. Perhaps Charles Haddon Spurgeon said it best: "The Old Covenant was a covenant of prosperity, the New Covenant is a Covenant of Adversity whereby we are weaned from the present world and made meet (fit)for the world to come."
In Hebrews 11, often referred to as the "Faith Hall of Fame," we read of those who were commended for their faith, yet were destitute, persecuted, imprisoned, and suffered torturous deaths. These men and women set examples for us, and yet their lives were characterized more by perseverance than by prosperity.
Certainly, this message will not sell well in a self-indulgent age. Nonetheless, we had better be glad that our heavenly Father decides what is best for us and not we ourselves, because only He truly understands what we need and what we can handle. One shudders to think of what would happen if God gave us everything we clamored for.
I do not wish to be misunderstood: I believe in divine healing and in God's provision for every detail of our lives. In addition, I do not associate piety with poverty. I thank God for those He has prospered who are dedicated to using their resources for the extension of His Kingdom.
But for the word-faith teachers, healing and prosperity became so important that they had to find some way to guarantee them, and they did this by exalting man's faith at the expense of God's sovereignty. Thus, they developed the doctrine that God created the world out of nothing by faith, and that He created men as "little gods" to exercise the same kind of faith. Faith therefore becomes a powerful force that gets results, whether in the hands of a believer or a nonbeliever.
On the basis of this virtual deification of human faith, the purveyors of the word-faith message promise health and wealth to those who exercise faith in their faith rather than faith in their God. As has been well said elsewhere, faith is only as good as the object on which it is placed.
Walter Martin used to say, "All faith is subsumed under the overarching biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God." The Creator is the Lord of the universe, not a cosmic "gofer" at the beck and call of His creation. It is not our faith that sits on the throne, but our sovereign God (1 Chronicles 29:10-12).
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:19:36 PM
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SD456
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quote:
they are leading many lost people down a dead-end road by preaching a gospel that uses Jesus' name but is deviod of His actual character, power, and gospel.
Actually dear fellow believer it is teachers who believe what you believe that may be wanting for the power of God in their lives. And where is your Grace?? That has everything to do with the character of our precious Abba. But I understand now where you are coming from. You truly do not have faith that God wants people to be healed all the time - even though Jesus healed every single person that came to him. You sincerely believe that God wants His children in poverty, or perhaps middle class is ok, but to believe that God wants to bless and prosper His children is somehow heretical.
That's OK. If you want to believe this, though I do not see the scriptures that uphold this thought, it's ok for you to believe it. I for one believe that our God is a God of life, restoration and healing. And it is always His desire to bring healing and restoration into people's lives. But it takes faith to see this happen. And it takes our mouths to pray for people, thus faith is communicated through our mouths and our deeds.
Please! you are arguing semantics for the simple sake of arguing. You are free to believe what you wish....God is so very gracious and loving that He will allow it without accusing you of being a heretic...and neither will I.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:25:16 PM
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SD456
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quote:
Jesus predicted for His followers poverty, rejection, and persecution.
Earthless, are you in poverty right now?? Are you being rejected by your neighbors and scorned by the people at your work place at the moment? Have you lost your job because of persecution?? NO??? Oh dear, then I fear you MUST be doing something wrong because Jesus said His followers would suffer these things....  What are you doing wrong, Earthless?
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:26:07 PM
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earthless
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I guess the disciples, the apostles, the first Christian churches, and even Jesus Himself had it wrong. How dare they live in poverty, destitute, in prison, in shame, as outcasts, and as those that lost their life for believing on Him.
Can and does God prosper some and heal others? Yes! But we are not promised a life of riches, wealth, and health. We are told to pray THY will be done.. not MY will be done. And how amazing that those who these Word of Faith folk would consider to have little to no faith because they are poor and or handicap/etc.. are those whose faith is many times off the charts and whose lives are amazing testimonies to the power of God.
I praise God for unanswered prayers! I cannot even imagine how much ruin (if not already had been dead) my life would be in if because of my words, my faith in my words, my faith in my faith - God granted all that I have asked.
Praise God for Him saying No and for His wisdom.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:30:23 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
Jesus predicted for His followers poverty, rejection, and persecution.
Earthless, are you in poverty right now?? Are you being rejected by your neighbors and scorned by the people at your work place at the moment? Have you lost your job because of persecution?? NO??? Oh dear, then I fear you MUST be doing something wrong because Jesus said His followers would suffer these things.... What are you doing wrong, Earthless?
Am I rich by the standards placed by Meyer, Hinn, Copeland, Dollar? Not by a long shot. I drive a ten year old car, one which many Word of Faith churches I have gone to wouldn't allow to be parked in the main lot because it is not new and luxurious enough.
As for the other items you mentioned - all of those are simply a result of me living in the U.S. where true persecution and anguish for serving Christ is something that has not yet come our way.
But for my dear brothers and sisters in Christ living in other counties.. whose faith and walk make mine shameful - they are in poverty and in real tribulation. This very moment and second. As you and me sit in our comfortable chairs, with our nice PC's, they are daily being persecuted like you described. But I guess that's all because they didn't name it and claim it. Shame on them for not having enough faith in the force.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:35:21 PM
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SD456
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Every spiritual camp/denomination has its extremes. Even your camp has its extremes. Just because a christian has some of their doctrine incorrect (I"m not saying that everything Joyce Meyers says is something I agree with, because it's not) does not make them a heretic.
Case in point:
Martin Luther had very incorrect thinking when it came to Jews. He hated them, despised them and wrote a lot of literature against them during the last quarter of his life. He called them the spawn of satan and said they should not be allowed to move freely in society. His belief not only went against scripture in this area, but it also very much went against the heart of God.
Yet God still chose to use this man for big things in life, even though God new full well that his child, Martin, has issues of bitterness in his heart that weren't right and a doctrine of belief against the Jews that was pretty evil.
400 years later the writings of Martin Luther were used by the Nazi party in their propoganda against the Jews. It was his writings they used to bolster their belief that Jews should be annihilated. With all of this, God still decided to use little Martin Luther, though God knew that his writings, completely wrong, completely evil, and completely against God's heart, would be used 400 years later by the Nazi party.
What a strange thing, I always thought, for God to do. Why would he use someone in a powerful way whose very doctrine is used to help destroy millions of people.
Joyce and some others that you guys are always speaking against may not have perfect doctrine...I totally agree there. But God has chosen to use them with all their flaws, all their limited understanding of things, and even with some doctrine that's incorrect because God knows what He wants and whom He wants to use.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:37:41 PM
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earthless
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SD456,
We're not talking about a slight disagreement over a certain doctrinal point, or a little thing that is a non essential. No. How I wish that were the case - no, we're talking about falsehoods and heretical teachings.
Teachings which preach another God and another Jesus, not the ones revealed to us in the Bible, the Word of God.
The problem I see with a lot of fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord, is that they do not either:
a) Know the Scriptures well enough and the command we have from God for apologetics or for sound doctrine
b) Believe anything they hear from a pulpit. Put stock in anyone and anything that just happens to use Biblical words.
We seem to have an entire church generation that puts more stock in emotions, good feelings, wealth seeking and good life seeking - than the absolute truth of God's Word.
We hear all the time from people who fit those molds I described as saying, "we are to just love one another and be united in faith, don't cause division!!" But shouldn't we therefore, regard as divisive those people who speak out against teachings in the church which are clearly unbiblical?
I can tell you firsthand that it is no joy to be labeled a "heresy-hunter." Yet, as the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy, we are to zealously guard the purity of the message God has entrusted to us, and for good reason (1 Timothy 1:18-19; 6:20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5).
We read in such passages as Acts chapter 20, and 2 Peter chapter 2, that false teachers will arise, bringing with them destructive heresies, distorting the truth and destroying the faith of some. Moreover, friend, it is clear that these teachers will come not only from outside the church, but also from within the body of Christ as well.
It is therefore imperative that we test all things by Scripture (1 Thessolanians 5:21).
It was in this spirit that the Bereans examined the words of the Apostle Paul, for which they were reckoned as noble in character (Acts 17:11). Indeed, not only can the Bible be used for preaching, teaching and encouragement, but it is equally valuable for correcting and rebuking (2 Timothy 4:2).
As a matter of fact, we as Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God, warning others of false teachings. (Acts 20:26-28; Ezekiel 33:7-0; 34:1-10)
This is not merely a suggestion, it is, in fact, a divine mandate. Of course if heresies are coming from teachers within the church, we ought to try and approach them first with our concerns.
Should that fail to resolve the problem, we are told in Matthew 18 to expose their errors to the church; and if need be, divulge their names. (1 Timothy 1:20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 4:14-15; 3 John 9-10).
We would, therefore, do well to heed Scripture's explicit warning to be on guard for false teachings (Romans 16:17-18; 1 Timothy 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; Titus 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to brothers and sisters in Christ (2 Timothy 4:6).
Hoping God is using them regardless of often times rank heresy is akin to hoping God is using Mormon and Jehovah Witnesses leaders to do some good.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:41:14 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
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quote:
I praise God for unanswered prayers! I cannot even imagine how much ruin (if not already had been dead) my life would be in if because of my words, my faith in my words, my faith in my faith - God granted all that I have asked.
Yes, I totally agree with you...and so would many the word of faith people (probably not all). They too praise God always for the times He has not answered their prayers and He has led them and for how He orchestrates things in their lives. God is so very good to do this and to love us enough to guard us.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:44:00 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
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From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
I praise God for unanswered prayers! I cannot even imagine how much ruin (if not already had been dead) my life would be in if because of my words, my faith in my words, my faith in my faith - God granted all that I have asked.
Yes, I totally agree with you...and so would many the word of faith people (probably not all). They too praise God always for the times He has not answered their prayers and He has led them and for how He orchestrates things in their lives. God is so very good to do this and to love us enough to guard us.
Is the Gospel that cheap that we are to be ok with people who teach falsely on the core essentials of Christianity? Of those that make merchandise of our fellow brothers and sisters? Of those whose teachings have caused so much despair and pain?
I cannot and will not sit idle when there are those whose teachings on the core essentials of Christianity are nothing more than New Age teachings from old repackaged for Christian consumption.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:52:16 PM
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SD456
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Actually, we ARE talking about non-essentials. The only essentials for salvation are believing in Christ as son of God, the cross, the resurrection, the nature of Christ, etc. I think you know them.
These things are all semantics and very much non-essentials. Believing that God wants to prosper His children will not send a person to hell, neither will not believing have any bearing on your place in heaven. Believing that God wants to heal all people will not change a person's salvation.
If Joyce Meyers wants to preach what is on her heart, that she sincerely believes the Holy Spirit has taught her on her journey with Christ, than she is free to do so. She loves Jesus, she is constantly praising Him and acknowledging Him before the congregation, she is born-again and believes in the death and resurrection of Christ. Just because she has a different revelation or understanding of certain doctrines than you have, does not make her a heretic.
As Count Zinzendorf of the Moravians said (he started a prayer community of mixed believers and had the same problem that you guys face - how do you mix people with different doctrinal beliefs together): In essentials unity; in non-essentials liberty; and in all things love.
Liberty! Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. In God's time, if God believes that Joyce has wrong doctrine, He is fully able to adjust her thinking because she loves Him very, very much.
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:56:04 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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SD,
Great post and I love that quote for I use it a lot here when discussing these topics. Thank you for sharing it. :)
I know you're new to our boards - have you had a chance yet to read some of the pages in this thread where posters have shared direct quotes, audio links, video clips, etc.. that document what we're discussing when it comes to some of Joyce's teachings on core essentials?
One of the last ones presented is regarding the absolute atonement of sins on the cross by Jesus' passion. By His precious shed blood. How she teaches he did not complete it on the cross, had to go to hell for three days, was tortured by Satan and demons, and had to speak "words of faith" to become the first born again man, etc... etc..
Just wondering if you had a chance to read and study those resources yet. There are others through the 30 pages of this thread. Many of which have gone completely ignored by her supporters.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: joyce meyer - 8/8/2007 6:58:07 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
bringing with them destructive heresies, distorting the truth and destroying the faith of some.
Nah, you don't need to worry about this. I don't think believing that God wants to prosper His children or that God wants to heal people is something that would destroy people. I think the wolves are the people who bring in actual heresy that subverts the "true" essentials of the faith. The heresies against the nature of Christ: Jesus is not really the son of God, Jesus does really have the nature of God in Him, there is no resurrection, etc, etc.
There have been an abundance of heresies like that - especially during the early church, that attached the true essentials - but believing God wants to heal and prosper???? Nah, don't worry, those cannot be compared with anything like true heresy. True heresy really does destroy people's faith. Joyce Meyer has always strengthened my faith, made me desire more of Jesus, and made me believe in God in a deeper way.
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