Community

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all

Bill,

The following is the Greek from John 20:22
lambanO: vm 2Aor Act 2 Pl BE-YE-GETTING

I can't comment further than to say BE-YE-GETTING certainly doesn't sound like YE-HAVE-GOT. And if the true meaning of this future prophectic word from Jesus is that, after you hear the 'blowing wind' at Pentecost 'YE-HAVE-GOT' holy spirit...then so be it. I can't argue the Greek to that end but I throw that out as my response to your POV.

I don't believe I have "refused to hear", nor am I "ignoring" anything you've said. But your statement: "To me my understanding makes more sense."...is simply where I'm going to leave you. Remarks like you are making above simply prove there is poor communication between us and it's getting worse instead of better IMO.

But before I go let me say this. The 'true understanding' of the word of God doesn't come by rote or memorization or indoctrination...and it certainly doesn't come by 'what makes sense' ...to you or to any man, according to scripture. 'True understanding' comes by revelation. I used to believe like you do Bill, but it quit making sense to me in the light of total scripture and the inconsistencies caused by that POV. Inconsistencies which I've tried to present to you. Honestly your defenses simply aren't pursasive enough for me to go back to what you presently believe. If you have a prayer tongue then that's what matters most to me in this thread. How it all works out in Greek will be truly known by us all in the hereafter.

DR

quote:

Bill: Again the Greek tense of the word receive cannot mean what you claim it means. Aorist is past tense and the Imperative makes it a command. He was commanding them to receive or take the Holy Spirit at that time and place.

quote:

Bill: I don't know where you got your definition of "Lambano"

quote:

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm
Imperative Mood
The imperative mood is a command or instruction given to the hearer, charging the hearer to carry out or perform a certain action.

For example: "Flee youthful lusts." 2 Tim. 2:22

quote:

Bill: When I began to seriously seek God about the baptism with the Holy Spirit, John 20:22 was one of the verses God brought to my attention to show me that the disciples received the Holy Spirit twice, at the new birth and then on Pentecost.

quote:

the "doing something in the future" is not talking about a prophecy of the future but something that would occur in the immediate future. I think you will find that where ever the aorist imperative is used it concerns the immediate future, not the prophetic future.

quote:

"The Aorist Imperative denotes a command, request, or entreaty. Unlike the Present Imperative (80, 81), it does not involve a command or entreaty for continuous or repetitive action. Instead, it is often used for general exhortations and for things that must be begun at that very moment."

quote:

Here is a quote from Zodhiates Word Study New Testament concerning John 20:22 on page 385:

"This was one of the many times that God "breathed," gave, or filled His people with the Holy Spirit. This giving or filling of the Holy Spirit should not be confused with the baptism in the Holy Spirit (see note on Acts 1:5) and the special advent of the Holy Spirit at Jerusalem, Caesarea, and Ephesus (Acts 2:1-13; 11:15-18; 19:1-7). "

quote:

ORIGINAL: B1inhim

Bless the Lord, `o my soul.
I have been watching this subject get thrashed around like so many of the other reasons for why we are NOT in the unity of faith.
Not even one time, was there any single person who after being baptized in the Spirit, did not speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
IE, every single solitary time that someone was baptized in the Spirit, they spoke in tongues.
PERIOD.
It is the teachers of the edict of tolerance that has aided in diminishing the effects of this wonderful experience.
The Eunuch in Acts chapter eight was baptized in water for the remission of his sins, in that he believed and was baptized.
This is an act of belief and an open act of faith as well as declaration; professing to the world that one believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but he didn’t speak in tongues.
The baptism of Holy Spirit is separate from this act of obedience.
For many, this difference eludes them. It is a mystery.
The bottom line is this.
Belief.
If you believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and that GOD has raised Him from the dead, you are saved.
Mk.16:
AND these signs will follow them that believe, In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly poison it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover."
PERIOD
There are six elements that we make (so to speak) as a believer, wood hay and stubble and gold silver and precious stones. (I Cor. 3:12)
These are the elements that are tested in the fire at the end and whatever is eternal will survive the flames of fire. The petty indifferences that have been separating the Body of Christ must come to end NOW.
We are a royal priesthood, ministers of reconciliation, a chosen generation, His own special people, a holy nation, proclaiming the praises of Him who called you OUT of the darkness into His marvelous light.
Those who do not see the light or understand what it is that sets us apart from the rest of this evil and wicked world, even after GREAT exegesis (an explanation or critical interpretation of a text) concerning the things of GOD. Will continue to stumble, they are disobedient to the Word and are appointed to continue to stumble.
Either accepts it and receives the fullness of the Spirit in Truth or rejects it and continues to stumble in their own foolishness.
Professing to be wise according to the dictates of this world they are confounded by the wisdom of GOD, which is foolishness to them.
Speaking in tongues is a GOD given right and every single solitary person who believes that Jesus Christ is Lord and is baptized has the right to speak in tongues.
However, just because you do not speak in tongues, does not mean that you are NOT saved.
That is Gods call, not ours.
It is like having a $20.00 bill tucked in a secret place in a billfold that you were given as a gift from a loved one. You have it; you just don't know that you do, so you don't use it.
I said "However, just because you do not speak in tongues, does not mean that you are NOT saved."
I am going to leave this like this.
Just because you do not speak in tongues, does not mean that you are not saved. It only means that you either do not know about it, do not want it or are just plain ignorant by choice OR you have been taught that it is not for everybody. And the following scripture is used… 1 Cor. 12:30 (KJV) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Lord Jesus said " Mark 16:17-18
AND these signs will follow them that believe, In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly poison it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover."
PERIOD
If you do not agree with this you are not agreeing with GOD.
That is not something that is my responsibility to tell you to do or not to do.
Spiritual arrogance says, " I am saved, no matter what."
Spiritual arrogance says "I do not see it therefore it does not apply to me."
It is the spiritually arrogant who help others walking in their own conceits and not that of Gods understanding.

You see the scriptures and have you yourself given them, why do you still ask where and why?
I have told you plainly.
We all have the gift of Life in Christ. The gift of tongues in 1 Cor. 12:30 is concerning ministry and is totally separate (if you please) from the ordained right of birth to speak in new tongues according to Mark 16:17-18 .
Yes, I have the gift of speaking in different tongues. And I speak in tongues as well.
In the congregation, I have had the honor of being given interpretation of tongues, which is the equivalence of prophecy.
Yet, while alone, I speak in tongues in worship and fellowship to and with GOD.
I simply ask for interpretation and my understanding is fruitful.
The enemy of my soul is confounded and I have direct fellowship with God in heaven.

This is ONE of the reasons why there are so many people who are confounded by this special right of birth and the gift of tongues.
Each has the billfold of GOD in Christ Jesus. In that, there are many different gifts and rights of birth that set us apart from this wicked generation. These gifts and rights of birth are clearly opened to those who are His and hidden from those who are not. To accept them as they are and go, grow and multiply is what being a seed of the “good ground” is all about. To reject them and/or even deny that they apply to US who are in JesUS is to reject and/or deny the power thereof.
The choice is our’s to make.
Plain and simple.
Love,
Brother Jerry

quote:

ORIGINAL: B1inhim

Bless the Lord, `o my soul.
I have been watching this subject get thrashed around like so many of the other reasons for why we are NOT in the unity of faith.
Not even one time, was there any single person who after being baptized in the Spirit, did not speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
IE, every single solitary time that someone was baptized in the Spirit, they spoke in tongues.
PERIOD.

quote:

ORIGINAL: contend4christ

Wow, after reading this last page on here I feel like I might be slipping into heresy because the first time I actually took time to read the book of acts I thought there was something fishy about the tongues of so many today because it didn't really look like what happened in acts. Anyway I would like to know if anyone knows Gods purpose for a secret language that is done physically out loud between him and a believer, and what is the purpose of people outwardly speaking this secret language so others can hear what sounds like mumbling when it will be translated anyway?

quote:

Also if the language is between them and God why is the translator listening in on the secret prayer? Once he translates it, its no longer a secret anymore. There must be a reason for all of this.

quote:

Also realize he says its good not to pray so people can see you, so why does he desire for people to see you pray a language they don't understand out loud? It seems pointless which is why I know there could be something I am missing.

quote:

Also Wouldn't it be wise to pray such a prayer with your mouth closed. I would like to know the biblical purpose for this outward part that is used as well because I'm sure when the Bible says its a sign to unbelievers its not talking about what happens in churches I have attended.

quote:

Then I also don't understand why God who is spirit, has a physical secret prayer language?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all

Bill,

quote:

the "doing something in the future" is not talking about a prophecy of the future but something that would occur in the immediate future. I think you will find that where ever the aorist imperative is used it concerns the immediate future, not the prophetic future.

Here we go with your opinions again. Why don't you find the proof to back up what you are saying above...or at least quote a reputable source that agrees. I believe I've made my point and the ball is in your court.

quote:

As far as your Zodhiates quote below: It doesn't look much different than my Zodhiates quote in my last post based upon his handling of lambano in John 20:22 so what's your point?

quote:

"The Aorist Imperative denotes a command, request, or entreaty. Unlike the Present Imperative (80, 81), it does not involve a command or entreaty for continuous or repetitive action. Instead, it is often used for general exhortations and for things that must be begun at that very moment."

Often doesn't mean always you know?

quote:

As far as your last comment is concerned:

quote:

Here is a quote from Zodhiates Word Study New Testament concerning John 20:22 on page 385:

"This was one of the many times that God "breathed," gave, or filled His people with the Holy Spirit. This giving or filling of the Holy Spirit should not be confused with the baptism in the Holy Spirit (see note on Acts 1:5) and the special advent of the Holy Spirit at Jerusalem, Caesarea, and Ephesus (Acts 2:1-13; 11:15-18; 19:1-7). "

You're trying to get me to concede my POV based upon Zodhiates personal indoctrinated POV concerning this whole issue. Get serious Bill he isn't going to say what 'I believe and am defending'. He is simply doing what I'm accusing you of doing. And that is, you are defending an indoctrinated POV and are willing to glaze over the obvious to defend it even at the expense of being confronted with 'new truth IMO'.

quote:

Read Zodhiates opinions on the baptism and speaking in tongues and you are probably going to have to disagree with him too. I hope you understand the point I'm making here. I'm using his knowledge of the Greek to defend my unorthodox view. A view as unorthodox and heretical as the one Martin Luther presented to the church of his day...and the church was wrong...remember?

quote:

BTW you didn't address my other two sources which I used in my last post to refute your misunderstanding of "the aorist always past tense." A point again which leads me to believe that you are more interested in winning, than following the truth wherever it may lead you. And that's a place which can be very uncomfortable in the nominal church of the last days which has divided into 666 Christian denominations...because of doctrine. The rest of them split because the bathrooms were painted the wrong color.

quote:

So once again I'm not interested in pursuing this with you because I don't believe you are seeking the truth wherever it may take you. I believe you are defending where you are at. So I'm willing to leave you in God's hands where you are. If you truly seek I believe you will find what I have had revealed to me...if I'm wrong, then we'll shake hands and grin about it in glory.

quote:




Wow, after reading this last page on here I feel like I might be slipping into heresy because the first time I actually took time to read the book of acts I thought there was something fishy about the tongues of so many today because it didn't really look like what happened in acts. Anyway I would like to know if anyone knows Gods purpose for a secret language that is done physically out loud between him and a believer, and what is the purpose of people outwardly speaking this secret language so others can hear what sounds like mumbling when it will be translated anyway?

quote:


Humility. If I pray in tongues there is no earthly glory in it and I can't claim any credit for the"powerful prayer" I prayed. Also as Paul said, am I willing to be a fool for Christ?

quote:

quote:


Then I also don't understand why God who is spirit, has a physical secret prayer language?

Again, to keep us humble.

quote:

If you compare Acts 2:6-13 with 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 I think you will find what Paul was talking about. Note in Acts 2 there were "others mocking" who thought they were drunk. If you look at 1 Corinthians 14:21 he says, "yet for all that will they not hear me". So this idea that tongues are so people can hear in their own language goes against what the passage actually says. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers because they refuse to believe.