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Fritzpw_Admin -> Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 10:28:08 AM)

Are tongues a gift given to Christians today, or did they cease with the writing of the New Testament?

Are tongues necessary for or THE indication of salvation?

Can a Christian be filled with the Holy Spirit but not speak in tongues?

Are "prayer languages" biblical, or are tongues only valid within a group setting?

Does interpretation of tongues have to happen whenever someone utters anything in tongues in a group setting, or is praying in tongues, in a group, without interpretation OK?

Are tongues strictly a "heavenly language" or are they earthly languages?

Discuss these and other issues related to speaking in tongues.



semperfidelis -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 10:45:12 AM)

Good call on making a one-stop.

quote:

Are tongues a gift given to Christians today, or did they cease with the writing of the New Testament?

Didn't cease and can be uplifting. Note that I say that they, "can". As with anything, people can and will abuse stuff. Just because the Enemy tries to distort something does not mean that we should run from "it", but that we should run from the distortion.

quote:

Are tongues necessary for or THE indication of salvation?

No. That's not even mentioned as a requirement in the Bible. Repentence of sins and acceptance of forgiveness is the requirement. Water baptism is a command, not a requirement, and having evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit (and receiving more of the Holy Spirit) is a gift to be sought. Although once a Christian, considering the reason why we are to be saved, I'm not sure why you wouldn't follow any commands...

quote:

Can a Christian be filled with the Holy Spirit but not speak in tongues?

I don't see why not, after all, to some are given different gifts, if we all had the same, we wouldn't really need each other.

quote:

Are "prayer languages" biblical, or are tongues only valid within a group setting?

Yes, Biblical, and no.... I'm not sure why it would only be valid in a group setting.

quote:

Does interpretation of tongues have to happen whenever someone utters anything in tongues in a group setting, or is praying in tongues, in a group, without interpretation OK?

If it is to be as in a situation as Paul described where one person stands up and prays in tongues to the congregation or group, then it MUST be interpreted. Otherwise, pray to God with knowledge and understanding on your own.

quote:

Are tongues strictly a "heavenly language" or are they earthly languages?

Both.



mushhead -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 11:30:30 AM)

quote:

I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1Corinthians 14:5 (emphasis mine)

The meaning of that sentence is that indeed, you don't need to have an interpretation. If you speak in tongues, prophecy is greater than tongues, but if you have an interpretation, the church is edified.


But wait you say.... what about 1Corinthians 14:27

If anyone speaks in a tongue, two- or at the most three- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.


Verse 5 says an interpretation is not needed, verse 14 says that it is. Does the Bible contradict itself? No, of course not. So it is indeed true that there are two types of tongues, one being a prayer language that is communicating with God, that edifies the self, and that is "uttering mysteries with his spirit" It is not inappropriate or forbidden to pray out loud in tongues in a corporate setting, just as it is not inappropriate to pray out loud in English in a corporate setting, however it must be done in order. You don't stand up and shout out a prayer in English in the middle of a sermon, no more than you do in tongues. This is what verse 27 is referring to. We prophesy in both personal and corporate settings. Just as if we are giving a corporate prophecy, a corporate message of tongues must also be done in order, and not just randomly shouted out, at an inappropriate time, without the following of an interpretation.

Hopefully I communicated what I was trying to say clearly. I just had that revelation one day as I was reading over these scriptures.


swimkid, I only have one question: Why would you stand up in church and pray out loud in a tongue without an interpretation?



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 12:14:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead

swimkid, I only have one question: Why would you stand up in church and pray out loud in a tongue without an interpretation?


I would like to enter a post here even though I am not swinkid.

If at my Church I ask someone to dismiss the service or to pray for a specific situation I would certainly expect them to pray in a language so that those listening can agree and say amen, and thus come in live with the following Scrioptures;

(1Co 14:16) Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

(1Co 14:17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

That passage is very plain in instruction and intent; when all are praying for the same thing and all not understand how can those who do not understand be edified and/or say amen.

But when each person, even in the same building, room, or sanctuary are praying individually unto God there is no need, nor requirement for interpretation as one is speaking by the Spirit unto God not the others who happen to be in the building..

Last evening at the end of the service I ask all who would to pray for what ever burden they felt, and if they did not know what to pray; then to pray in the Spirit. I ask each to pray as they would, where they would: where they sat, at the prayer rails, walking around, in one of the other rooms of the building; wherever and however they felt led.

Some prayed in tongues, some were prayed in English, some prayed in tongues, some prayed in Choctaw, some prayed in Spanish, some prayed silently. This I believe came in line with;

(1Co 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

and

(Rom 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(Rom 8:27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

When we are speaking to God (praising, singing, magnifying), no interpretation is necessary as God knows what the Spirit is speaking:

(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Not making this distinction I believe is what causes so much confusion about a wonderful gift of the Spirit of God.

Thanks
RC



swimkid -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 1:15:44 PM)

good answer. I agree.

You can be personally praying, while in a corporate situation. People often come before a corporate setting and confess and pray personal prayers to God, that while in English, are thier own prayers, and people don't even necessarily have to understand the situation to be in agreement with them.

For example, someone confesses to God that they have sinned, and ask God for forgiveness and strength to turn away from that sin. They didn't go into details necessarily (may be inappropriate in that setting, ie mixed company) but the body can still come into agreement with that persons prayer, because they discern the general meaning behind the prayer, and the spirit behind it. They don't even have to be in agreement, there's nothing wrong with someone standing up, praying out loud to God, and simply witnessing it, whether in english or tongues.

You can be in a corporate situation praying for say, Israel, and everyone is asked to pray what is on their heart regarding Israel. So everyone prays, in English, or in tongues. I suppose you could all pray silently to yourselves, but there is power in speaking out the words, so why not pray out loud. In that case, it would still be in order, because that is the time that was set aside for that purpose, even though many people are talking at once, or in tongues without a specific interpretation. God still hears and understands everyone, regardless.

If I was asked to stand up in a service or meeting and pray, I wouldn't just get up there and pray in tongues and that be it. I would pray in English, but I might start out in tongues, to get "warmed up" and try to hear what God was inspiring me to pray. That can also be considered an interpretation. And often in the middle of a prayer if I get stuck on what else to say, I will pause and pray in tongues, or be silent, and talk to God and then get more things to pray. If I know the people around me are uncomfortable with tongues, or I don't know how they feel about tongues, I will silently pray to myself in tongues, as to not cause division, otherwise I will pray out loud in tongues if I feel like I should pray in tongues, because it is a language, and therefore meant to be spoken. But I don't just run around randomly yelling tongues at people causing chaos. I do it when I know people around me are comfortable with it.


Also I think that as "deep calls unto deep" our spirits can bear witness to another person's spirit, because they are both the Spirit of God living on the inside of the person. The Spirit of God on the inside of us can communicate with God, so I would think that even though our minds might not understand the other person, a person's Spirit can bear witness to, and be stirred by another person's Spirit, and another person praying in tongues, even though our mind doesn't understand. But that is just my random opinion, and a thought I just had while typing this.



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 3:31:11 PM)

1.it is biblical, but only in the context of speaking to those who understand that language. the disciples spoke the language those people could understand with power from on high. it wasn't to do anything but spread the Gospel!!

2. there is no heavenly language. praying to God in some "other language" would totally be someone's idea and not a bible principle.

3. why speak in tongues to people who speak your language already? it seems as though many aren't making sense. if the church speaks english then why would you need another language to speak to the church? again, another manmade idea to gain the applause of others.

4. there is one baptism--you either are complete or without. upon salvation you receive everything you need. you don't need another dose, another baptism or another power. see Col. 2:10. we are complete in Him. no need to beg and cry to speak in another language.

5. this gift (SIP) was given at the time it was needed. it's not needed today, but if it were God could use it again. however many would like for it to seem as though they have a deeper relationship, understanding, and spiritual life than others so they profess this gift for that very reason.

6. personal experience doesn't mean it's biblical. muslims and many others could use this as their faith statement, but to base your faith or beliefs on experience alone is simply wrong. anything can be twisted to try and align your personal experience with the bible.

7. take the verses in context and quit pulling verses to support an experience. let the bible speak for itself in "context."



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 4:13:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf

1.it is biblical, but only in the context of speaking to those who understand that language. the disciples spoke the language those people could understand with power from on high. it wasn't to do anything but spread the Gospel!!


When the Genitles first spoke with tongues, they were not spreading the Gospel.

(Act 10:44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

(Act 10:45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Act 10:46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

In Ephesus the same thing;

(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(Act 19:7) And all the men were about twelve.

It is obvious from these passages that the tongues referred to were not to spread the Gospel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
there is no heavenly language. praying to God in some "other language" would totally be someone's idea and not a bible principle.


I believe that Scripture does not agree with you;

(1Co 13:1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
3. why speak in tongues to people who speak your language already? it seems as though many aren't making sense. if the church speaks english then why would you need another language to speak to the church? again, another manmade idea to gain the applause of others.


Scripture says that Prophecy in tongues and the required interpretation of that prophecy is for;

(1Co 14:22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
4. there is one baptism--you either are complete or without. upon salvation you receive everything you need. you don't need another dose, another baptism or another power. see Col. 2:10. we are complete in Him. no need to beg and cry to speak in another language.


(Luk 3:16) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

(1Co 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Act 1:5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Let's see baptized in water, baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, baptized in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, seems like more than one to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
5. this gift (SIP) was given at the time it was needed. it's not needed today, but if it were God could use it again. however many would like for it to seem as though they have a deeper relationship, understanding, and spiritual life than others so they profess this gift for that very reason.


There are those of that persuasion, but your personal animosity for those who disagree with you seems to rise to the top. As for me, I believe the Word;

(Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
6. personal experience doesn't mean it's biblical. muslims and many others could use this as their faith statement, but to base your faith or beliefs on experience alone is simply wrong. anything can be twisted to try and align your personal experience with the bible..


Lack of a personal experience does not mean something is un-Biblical. The Word is the only basis for belief.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
7. take the verses in context and quit pulling verses to support an experience. let the bible speak for itself in "context."


I will be glad to answer any questions you may have and do so in context.

Thanks
RC



bobservations -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 4:49:20 PM)

I personally stay away from tongues. There are true manifestations and false ones. I have not been given the gift to tell which is true and which is not.

As stated in a previous post, it is not a salvation issue, so why use it. God hears our prayers as feeble as they might be. I do not think He would find favor in the one using tongues or receive his message better than praying in ones own language. Peace, boB



amsent -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 4:57:35 PM)

I believe there is a question that hasn't been asked before, at least on this forum. Why were the Corinthians speaking in tongues? And if this was under the lead of the Holy Spirit, why would Paul be rebuking them for it's usage. Just some food for thought since the same thing is going on here in this discussion. Anyone care to take a stab at it because the passages from Corinthians is used as a backer for tongues.

Amsent for truth



PCRB -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 7:12:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobservations

I personally stay away from tongues. There are true manifestations and false ones. I have not been given the gift to tell which is true and which is not.

As stated in a previous post, it is not a salvation issue, so why use it.
and to that i ask; why not?? if i can mow my lawn with a push mower, why use a power mower? because i can. in my case there is a certain dimension of prayer that cannot be accessed by me thru my own limitations, but when i allow the spirit to pray in tongues, the things of my spirit are aloowed to flow from my tongue. things i may not understand.

God hears our prayers as feeble as they might be.
i believe that there is nothing feeble about prayer.
the prayer of a righteous man is POWERFUL and AVAILETH MUCH. the added dimension of tongues fills me with an even greater confidence to speak out in faith.
I do not think He would find favor in the one using tongues or receive his message better than praying in ones own language. Peace, boB
i think you're right.



oo7 -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 7:47:22 PM)

I am still trying to find my way around this site, so where were we. I have been writing back and forth to Joelp on this subject, and I wish I could paste what I just wrote to him here. Any hoo, problem church's are nothing new, Paul had his share of them, and being that this subj. is so emotional and controversial and highly charged, I assume that Paul put the brakes on for many good reasons. One of these reasons I believe; Let me add a disclaimer here, what I am going to say next is from my personal experience, and is of no reflection upon anyones personal experience here on this forum, so please don't take offence. I believe that Paul was having problems with people in the church who were using tongues that were "not" converted, or even real christians. Now that the gasps have died down; let's not ever forget, that Satan has a counterfiet for every truth that God produces, and sometimes he uses it to "fool the very elect". He did it in Pauls time, and he has had over 2000 years to hone His craft today, and I have watched him do it way to many times, and get away with it unchallanged. So Paul met the challange head on and set down some rules; how many pastors have had to do the same today?

I am not a tougues guy, I neither shun them, or refuse them; I figure if Jesus wants me to have them for what ever reason, then He will give them to me one day. My Christian goal is to be a Holy person like He wants me to be, and like Stephen was, or Enoch. Which brings me to another point; How many of the Patriarchs that were caught up and taken to Heaven without seeing death, or those who died, and were raised to life and taken to Heaven..., ever spoke in tongues? These people were closer to God than any of us, and you would think that if unknown tongues are so important, that it would have been recorded that they used them all the time. And lets not forget again, the Bible was not written in English, but Hebrew and Greek, the word Tongues in English takes on other meanings when referenced with the original language.

Then there is the modern problem; I have known many Christians from most of the Denominations, and those who speak in tongues always without fail, insist that this is the primary manifestation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Now that makes my ears perk up, and I think about the Book of Galations, and the topics on the Fruits of the Spirit. To save time I won't write them, but those fruits are a real sign of a Changed Person..., remember when I said I want to be a Holy person like Stephen or Enoch, to be like Christ, that is what it means. And yet of those SIT people, some of them were anything but Christians once they were away from the Church; some have pron. problems, others are wife beaters, some were thiefs, others were adulters. But come church time, they could speak in tongues right along with the rest, and some of those were Pastors, who could lead out in tongues. Some of these SIT pastors were in the national media for their sinful exploits in the last 15 years. How do you think this looks to the unchurched..., it just plain bad all the way around. The unchurched are looking to Christians to walk the walk, and talk the talk.

So whats a person such as myself to think and do on the subj.?? Nothing, I leave those things up to God and His infinite wisdom, and if some of you are thinking I am a bit cynical on the subject of SIT, then it might be true. I have watched it abused for so many years, that I wanted to find a denomination that didn't use it at all, and I did. Now for those of you who use it wisely, and according to the Bible, God Bless you, I have no problem with it at all. I do not consider it a matter of being "the" only evidence of the indwelling presents of the Holy Spirit, there are many others besides. And then, you never know, God may tap me on the shoulder one day, and say " Rick I have a gift for you that I want you to use for MY GLORY", my only answer to that would be ; yes Lord I am here as your SimpleServant.

God Bless us every one!

Rick



SmileyTish -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/12/2006 8:06:55 PM)

Okay -- here is the deal...I am going to stay out of this arguement because point blank...I don't agree with everything that everyone says on this subject. Shoot I can't even agree with my own husband on this area why in the world do I think that I am going to be able to agree with anyone else. Here is my deal...God gives us what we need when we need it. If someone thinks that the only way they can have a "direct" connection to God is by speaking in a language that they do not understand then that is between them and God. However, I have a direct connection to God and understand everything that I have said. If God wants me to have the other thing, then that's what I'll get. However, I have been given other gifts that I have been led to use for His Glory. Things that I do better than others. Because the only thing that we are told that has to be universal in our faith is that we must come to God through Jesus Christ. We are not told that we are all going to see the evidence of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of toungues. Each of us have a different purpose in life that when we look at the bigger picture we will find glorifies God. I have a gift that God has given me. I don't expect him to give you the same gift...nor do I expect him to call you to use the same gift I have in exactly the same way he has called ME to use my gifts. Because God is not only the God of the corporate he is the God of the individual...no two people are the same therefore he works in each person differently but for the same reason...to Glorify Himself. That should be our ultimate goal.



oo7 -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 12:31:06 AM)

SmileyTish;

Couldn't have said it better myself; Many many years ago I used to play with the occult, and eastern beliefs, which are now called the new age. It was a stupid period in my life, and I was mad at God for many reasons, so I went looking, and discovered many interesting things. Since reading a library full of all spiritual topics, I ran across 2 books written by exmembers of the church of Satan, who became Christians. There are not very many of these, because usually unless they convert quickly to Christianity, they get killed. Anyway it was absoloutly fascinating reading; a worship service in the church of Satan is very much like any typical Christian worship service..., also with speaking in tongues, except they do not worship God. I read where it mimics the Christian speaking in tongues or.......! Many people have strange misconceptions about the church of Satan, most think that they look like punk rockers, or demons in human clothing, they are a small offshoot. The real church of Satan member looks just like any normal white or blue collar -person. There headquarters is in Montreal Canada, and they have a membership in the Millions world wide.

This is a bit off the topic, but where tongues are concerned, we need to be very careful, and the moment that pride gets in the way, the door is open for anything to enter the mind. I was visiting a church once that the entire congregation spoke in tongues, except me and a friend. Now I'm not stupid, and I know cursing when I hear it, and these people used "vailed" curse words and the Lords name in vain more than once. It sounded like a mixture of piglatin and yiddish, but you didn't have to listen that closely to not hear what sounded like cursing. It freaked me out, and this was in the mid 70s.

Like you said, if God really wants you to have it , then you will get it and it will be to use for His Glory and witness to others.

Rick



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 9:28:08 AM)

SimpleServant,

You have an interesting perspective on tongues, and probably, IMO, close to the reality of Scripture. I would for the sake of the onlookers like to expound on a couple of points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimpleServant
... I believe that Paul was having problems with people in the church who were using tongues that were "not" converted, or even real christians. ...


You of course are entitled to your opinion, but I can not go along with this perception because the the Book of First Corinthians was written to Believers and Paul, who was not one to mince words, never mentions fake tongues or fake Believers. He is encouraging the use of tongue, but giving instruction on how to use them. Paul did the same thing concerning the Lords's Supper in the 11th Chapter of First Corinthians - encouraging the practice of the Lord's Supper, and at the same time giving instruction for the proper way to do it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimpleServant
Then there is the modern problem; I have known many Christians from most of the Denominations, and those who speak in tongues always without fail, insist that this is the primary manifestation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


I think that you or maybe the folks you are referring to mis-spoke here. The Scripture nowhere indicates by instruction or example that the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" has anything to do with tongues. It is the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" that many claim must be followed by speaking in tongues. I for one happen to believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Spirit and never speak in tongues for a number of reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimpleServant
How many of the Patriarchs that were caught up and taken to Heaven without seeing death, or those who died, and were raised to life and taken to Heaven..., ever spoke in tongues?


None of the Patriarchs spoke in tongues; the reason being that they had neither the indwelling nor the baptism of the Holy Spirit.



Thanks
RC



BenQuebec -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 9:32:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I for one happen to believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Spirit and never speak in tongues for a number of reasons.


Please expound. I'm interested.



cjwpastor -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 9:55:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenQuebec

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I for one happen to believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Spirit and never speak in tongues for a number of reasons.


Please expound. I'm interested.



Not to step on RC's toes, but I'll offer my two-cents on this point...

First and foremost, as we reason together with what Scripture actually has to say about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and initial evidence, we must conclude that it is ambiguous at best. There is not one place in all of Scripture that a person can point to (on either side of the debate) and say this is definitive proof that my opinion is correct. There are certainly instances in Acts where people received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues but there are also instances where they did not. There are also instances where the people prophesied after receiving the Holy Spirit but interestingly enough we never hear Pentecostals claiming that prophesy is initial evidence to B.H.S. Hmmm.

So, what can we conclude? That some people speak in tongues and some do not. We do have very clear teaching, however, which tells us not to forbid speaking in tongues if done in order and we have clear teaching telling us that there is only one baptism and we have clear teaching telling us that not all people speak in tongues and we have clear teaching telling us that ALL who believe in Jesus Christ, repent and are baptized receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (the same gift poured out at Pentecost - this is found in Acts 2:38).

With that said, we must be practical as well. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for the purpose of empowering us for witness and giving us power to be more like Christ. Those who believe in intial evidence believe much the same thing. The difficulty here though is that if ONLY those who speak in tongues have this baptism (thus are the ONLY people empowered for witness) it stands to reason that ALL people who speak in tongues would be a better witness then ALL people that do not speak in tongues. Even the most carnal Christian who speaks in tongues (yet presumably having this special, empowering baptism of the Almighty Holy Spirit) we should expect to be a more prolific witness then the most saintly non-tongue speaking Christian who is without this special baptism. To say otherwise is an illogical argument at best and at worst it cheapens the Holy Spirit's work and ministry in the lives of believers.

If there were no Billy Graham's (a non-tongue speaker, btw) in the world and all people who spoke in tongues were exponentially more successful in Kingdom building then he is then I would readily admit that the ambiguity in Scripture about initial evidence must lean toward the side of the Pentecostal doctrine. However, I know scores of Billy Graham types and I know many people who speak in tongues who are shameful witnesses for the Gospel. Therefore we must conclude that the ambiguity in Scripture would lean toward the "do not forbid, do not require" side of things.

That is my two-cents at least [;)]

In Christ,
Chad



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 10:37:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenQuebec

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I for one happen to believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Spirit and never speak in tongues for a number of reasons.


Please expound. I'm interested.


BenQuebec,

This is my personal opinion (and not the opinion of my Denomination, by the way).

Can a person who has ability to pray in tongues control when to or when not to do it? Yes

(1Co 14:32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

And why is this ability to control the spirits available?

(1Co 14:33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Now I am fairly well convinced that any who are baptized in the Holy Spirit have the ability to pray in tongues (as evidenced in the Book of Acts). But they (and myself) choose when to, or whether too. Now that brings me to answer your question.

If someone has the ability to pray in tongues they why don't they?

I would think the above verse about peace and confusion would be one valid reason, another would be in the closing of the Chapter on instructions about tongues;

(1Co 14:37) If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

(1Co 14:38) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

(1Co 14:39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

(1Co 14:40) Let all things be done decently and in order.

I will give a great example of this; Most of the folks in my Church pray and praise God in tongues as they feel led to do so. Each Easter the SBC Church in town and our Church have a joint service, during these services there is no praying, praising, or prophecy in tongues. Why; So as not to cause confusion or be out of order.

Why would some who have the ability to pray in tongues (Baptized in the Holy Spirit) never pray in tongues?

Fear that has long been instilled in them by their spiritual environment - being told that tongues are of the devil, that you cannot control when it happens, and other ideas that become part and parcel of our psyche; seems to be number one.

When I was a Missionary in various countries for over 20 years; I never preached on nor promoted tongues, and yet probably 99% of those Baptized in the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues. These folks had no religious history or training to predispose them to or not to; they just did.

Now that I have been a Pastor for 18 years (and still do not promote nor forbid tongues) folks with no (or very little) prior teaching or training prior to conversion and Spirit baptism do the same thing. Those who migrate from Denominations which strongly preach and teach against tongues have a far smaller percentage who speak with tongues after Spirit baptism (probably 50%). Go figure.

I just think that we all, on both sides of the "issue", make too big a deal about it. IMO we just need to do as the Scripture teaches us and let God be God.

As for me I will not forbid the speaking in tongues, but all will be done in decently and in order.

Thanks
RC



BenQuebec -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 12:13:35 PM)

Excellent posts, CJW and RC.

CJW, I love your admission that the Bible can be ambiguous, and is ambiguous in this particular area. The Bible is not ambiguous in all areas, but I agree with you that it is in this area. I think a big problem comes into play by those who are convinced that the Bible is crystal clear on this subject, when all they are really doing is refusing to consider the plausibility of other valid interpretations of Scripture that contradict their own.

RC, I like your theory that all those baptized in the Holy Spirit are able to, but there are many who choose not to. I like it. Good food for thought.



cjwpastor -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 12:36:36 PM)

quote:



CJW, I love your admission that the Bible can be ambiguous, and is ambiguous in this particular area. The Bible is not ambiguous in all areas, but I agree with you that it is in this area. I think a big problem comes into play by those who are convinced that the Bible is crystal clear on this subject, when all they are really doing is refusing to consider the plausibility of other valid interpretations of Scripture that contradict their own.



Ben,
Excellent point. Allow me to add one more thing with regards to ambiguity. God's Word is extrememly precise when it chooses to be and for very good reason. On the same token, God's Word is ambiguous when (and only when) it chooses and also for very good reason. Whenever we come accross something in Scripture (like tongues) that doesn't seem to be black and white, a good rule of thumb is to pause and ask the question: "Now why would God choose to leave so much of this topic unanswered?"

The answer to that question may aid us greatly in helping to understand the purpose behind the issue (tongues) as well as stregthen and bolster ecumenical ties between differing denominations on these issues. If I were to offer an answer to that question, I might first try to imagine what kind of Christian culture would result if there were a verse in the Bible that read: "The gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always and only evidenced by the speaking of tongues." Now, couple that with the known fraudulent use of such a gift and the Word of God becomes a joke in the eyes of most. Just food for thought.

RC - loved your post and thank you for sharing from your personal experience. That means a lot to me.

God bless you all,
Chad



figmentPez -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 12:38:14 PM)

quote:

RC, I like your theory that all those baptized in the Holy Spirit are able to, but there are many who choose not to. I like it. Good food for thought.


Food for thought, but not necessarily true. I know at least two people who have sought the gift of tongues, but never manifested them, despite being strong Christians, and arguably displaying other spiritual giftings.



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 4:09:00 PM)

what do you think the disciples were preaching in tongues? obviously it was the Gospel!!

as for the baptism issue, you're taking it out of context, again. obviously john was speaking of a greater baptism (the one and the only one that matters). any well studied person knows that water baptism is not what saves, but rather being buried and raised to life in Christ through baptism in Him. i beleive the bible states there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism (Ephesisans 4:5)
there is no split among the baptism issue. you can describe in different manners whch you did well, but they are the same.

there is no peronal animosity just a way of thinking that would wonder why anyone would distort the scritures on purpose to seem biblical.

SIP was for spreading the Gospel to many differnt speaking languages at that time as was used in the scripture you referenced. doesn't take an architect to figure that out, but if i live in the mysteriously vague and unbiblical world of TBN theology then i can make it say whatever.

personal experience doesn't make something un-biblical--this is exactly what the mormons say, the jw's use, the cults, the muslims, etc....

thanks for the offer to help me get anwers, but i'll stick to the scriptures in context, which is the only way they should be interpretted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf

1.it is biblical, but only in the context of speaking to those who understand that language. the disciples spoke the language those people could understand with power from on high. it wasn't to do anything but spread the Gospel!!


When the Genitles first spoke with tongues, they were not spreading the Gospel.

(Act 10:44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

(Act 10:45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Act 10:46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

In Ephesus the same thing;

(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(Act 19:7) And all the men were about twelve.

It is obvious from these passages that the tongues referred to were not to spread the Gospel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
there is no heavenly language. praying to God in some "other language" would totally be someone's idea and not a bible principle.


I believe that Scripture does not agree with you;

(1Co 13:1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
3. why speak in tongues to people who speak your language already? it seems as though many aren't making sense. if the church speaks english then why would you need another language to speak to the church? again, another manmade idea to gain the applause of others.


Scripture says that Prophecy in tongues and the required interpretation of that prophecy is for;

(1Co 14:22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
4. there is one baptism--you either are complete or without. upon salvation you receive everything you need. you don't need another dose, another baptism or another power. see Col. 2:10. we are complete in Him. no need to beg and cry to speak in another language.


(Luk 3:16) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

(1Co 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Act 1:5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Let's see baptized in water, baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, baptized in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, seems like more than one to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
5. this gift (SIP) was given at the time it was needed. it's not needed today, but if it were God could use it again. however many would like for it to seem as though they have a deeper relationship, understanding, and spiritual life than others so they profess this gift for that very reason.


There are those of that persuasion, but your personal animosity for those who disagree with you seems to rise to the top. As for me, I believe the Word;

(Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
6. personal experience doesn't mean it's biblical. muslims and many others could use this as their faith statement, but to base your faith or beliefs on experience alone is simply wrong. anything can be twisted to try and align your personal experience with the bible..


Lack of a personal experience does not mean something is un-Biblical. The Word is the only basis for belief.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf2.
7. take the verses in context and quit pulling verses to support an experience. let the bible speak for itself in "context."


I will be glad to answer any questions you may have and do so in context.

Thanks
RC



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 4:20:03 PM)

this is the very thing that creates such confusion. there is only one interpretation of the bible. the bible should interpret itself. using the verses in context helps this interpretation be made clear. there are those who beleive the bible means many different things, but that creates confusion and cults. which is where we are today in the world--in regards to confusion and cults. there are however many apllications of one interpretation.
example: God is strong. strong for my problems, socially, financially, physically, etc...
this is wehre the average self taught person is taught incorrectly. everyone can't be right about their view of the bible. only one view can be correct. if truth is what you make of it then there is no truth, just relativism. this is where society stands...obviously
i don't beleive that one denom. has all the correct views before someone asks that question...

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjwpastor

quote:



CJW, I love your admission that the Bible can be ambiguous, and is ambiguous in this particular area. The Bible is not ambiguous in all areas, but I agree with you that it is in this area. I think a big problem comes into play by those who are convinced that the Bible is crystal clear on this subject, when all they are really doing is refusing to consider the plausibility of other valid interpretations of Scripture that contradict their own.



Ben,
Excellent point. Allow me to add one more thing with regards to ambiguity. God's Word is extrememly precise when it chooses to be and for very good reason. On the same token, God's Word is ambiguous when (and only when) it chooses and also for very good reason. Whenever we come accross something in Scripture (like tongues) that doesn't seem to be black and white, a good rule of thumb is to pause and ask the question: "Now why would God choose to leave so much of this topic unanswered?"

The answer to that question may aid us greatly in helping to understand the purpose behind the issue (tongues) as well as stregthen and bolster ecumenical ties between differing denominations on these issues. If I were to offer an answer to that question, I might first try to imagine what kind of Christian culture would result if there were a verse in the Bible that read: "The gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always and only evidenced by the speaking of tongues." Now, couple that with the known fraudulent use of such a gift and the Word of God becomes a joke in the eyes of most. Just food for thought.

RC - loved your post and thank you for sharing from your personal experience. That means a lot to me.

God bless you all,
Chad



cjwpastor -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 4:37:01 PM)

uthguy4lf-

In the last post you quoted me and Ben in the same page and I apologize, but I am lost as to who or what it is you are referring to and asking questions of. Perhaps you were not even addressing me, in which case, disregard this. But if you were, please clarify if you would.

Thanks!
Chad



amsent -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 4:37:28 PM)

I believe there is a question that hasn't been asked before, at least on this forum. Why were the Corinthians speaking in tongues? And if this was under the lead of the Holy Spirit, why would Paul be rebuking them for it's usage. Just some food for thought since the same thing is going on here in this discussion. Anyone care to take a stab at it because the passages from Corinthians is used as a backer for tongues.

So I will ask this question again sense there doesn't seem to be an answer from those who speak in tongues. And I issue this challenge to them. Give us an interpretation of a tongue spoken in your assembly and to what purpose it was given. Tongues on the day of Pentecost had purpose and the tongues spoken at Corinth speak for themselves. So beyond the "private prayer language" give us a purpose to the congregation and then tell us why it is done without any interpreter in most cases.

Amsent for truth



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 5:32:56 PM)

i was referrring to the concept that you introduced about "other valid interpretations" of the scriptures. i do understand that people differ on these issues and my statements were not meant as a personal remark towards you, but towards the idea of other interpretations which led me to think you were saying there are many interpretations--maybe i was wrong, if so i apologize wholeheartedly. it is an issue that some people believe in though, many interpretations that is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjwpastor

uthguy4lf-

In the last post you quoted me and Ben in the same page and I apologize, but I am lost as to who or what it is you are referring to and asking questions of. Perhaps you were not even addressing me, in which case, disregard this. But if you were, please clarify if you would.

Thanks!
Chad



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