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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2009 7:20:15 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, it's the ritual giving life if you think that during the ritual one gets regenerated.
No, I emphatically do not think it's the ritual giving life. Just because life is given during the ritual does not mean it is the ritual itself that is giving life. Perhaps there are those who simply can't see that, and that's OK, I guess.
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Yes, Paul says there is one baptism and he also says that one baptism is spirit baptism - not water. "..There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Sorry, I don't see the connection between Spirit and baptism in these verses. Certainly there is one Spirit and there is but one baptism and I believe the Spirit is part of that one baptism. But I think it is an unwarrated stretch to say that just because one Spirit and one baptism are mentioned in successive verses that Paul means the one baptism is solely spiritual.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2009 6:31:02 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
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kelman, I posted 4453 and 4468 to you regarding the order of believing and getting saved, from Acts 16:31.
You have not responded to either of them. Do you have a response, or are you ignoring them because you do not have a response?
You can easily check out the grammar that I've pointed out and I'm curious as to your take on the order, since it contradicts your views.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 4:33:30 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Arbitrarily? Just because you are unaware of God's reasons for doing something doesn't make what He does arbitrary. I very much doubt anyone has sufficient knowledge to make such a judgment. Frankly, gd, I'd be very leary of saying God needs my "permission" to do anything.
Of course God doesn't need our permission to do anything. He wants our permission. And you're right, God is not arbitrary. Okay, that sounds nice but where in Scripture do you find that idea?...that God "wants" our permission?
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Again, it's interesting to learn that you think you open your own eyes and apparently even give yourself a new heart based on your now unblinded eyes.
If you really learned this, it wasn't from me. I have never stated, nor do I believe, that I open my own eyes or give myself a new heart. Only God can do that. What do you think "eyes to see" means?....it means the giving of faith. And you say God doesn't do that because ...well...because it's not "nice".
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You say God's will is "really" paramount but He's not allowed to give whom He please a new heart. Of course God is allowed to give whom He pleases a new heart. God is God and I'm not. I can't allow or disallow God to do anything. How does that work, exactly?....since God's not allowed to choose whom He will give faith? He sort of has to accept pot luck.
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The problem is Scripture doesn't teach that. In fact, we see Scripture teaching the opposite. In a verse such as Mark 16:16, it is declaring that there are two conditions which give evidence of salvation: God has given us a faith whereby we have come to trust God as our Lord and Savior; and our sins have been washed away, that is, we have been baptised with the Holy Spirit. Neither of which requires or takes place in water.
There is no mention of the Holy Spirit in Mark 16:16 much less Holy Spirit baptism, so I can't accept your interpretation of this verse.
No mention of the Holy Spirit?....you think you wash your own sins away?
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 4:43:37 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Arbitrarily? Just because you are unaware of God's reasons for doing something doesn't make what He does arbitrary. I very much doubt anyone has sufficient knowledge to make such a judgment. Frankly, gd, I'd be very leary of saying God needs my "permission" to do anything.
Of course God doesn't need our permission to do anything. He wants our permission. And you're right, God is not arbitrary. Where in Scripture do you find that God "wants our permission"?
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Again, it's interesting to learn that you think you open your own eyes and apparently even give yourself a new heart based on your now unblinded eyes.
If you really learned this, it wasn't from me. I have never stated, nor do I believe, that I open my own eyes or give myself a new heart. Only God can do that. What do you think opening the eyes and heart means? It means the giving of faith.
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You say God's will is "really" paramount but He's not allowed to give whom He please a new heart. Of course God is allowed to give whom He pleases a new heart. God is God and I'm not. I can't allow or disallow God to do anything. Of course you allow or disallow since God must ask for permission. The best God can do is follow-up on your choices since He's not allowed to initiate.
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The problem is Scripture doesn't teach that. In fact, we see Scripture teaching the opposite. In a verse such as Mark 16:16, it is declaring that there are two conditions which give evidence of salvation: God has given us a faith whereby we have come to trust God as our Lord and Savior; and our sins have been washed away, that is, we have been baptised with the Holy Spirit. Neither of which requires or takes place in water.
There is no mention of the Holy Spirit in Mark 16:16 much less Holy Spirit baptism, so I can't accept your interpretation of this verse.
No mention of the Holy Spirit?....do you think you wash your own sins away?
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 4:46:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Not to mention we have anecdotal evidence that baptismal regeneration is not true. Water is ineffectual, water can do nothing, it is simply a sign, a shadow of what is real and it is unnecessary for salvation.
No matter what you think I believe, I agree completely with this statement. As I've said innumerable times, I don't believe its the physical ritual or the water itself that saves us when we are baptized. In fact, it's nothing we do when we are baptized that saves us. It is what God does when we are baptized that saves us. And not because He has to but because He wants to. I can only know what you think from what you say. And you say that God saves during a ritual, a water ritual. Therefore, that ritual is what saves.
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Of course, you think the Holy Spirit is compelled by the individual, at least your theology teaches that. No I emphatically do not think the Holy Spirit is compelled by the individual nor do I believe my theology teaches that.
How else to explain that the Holy Spirit must regenerate when you say so ....during water baptism?
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Are you saying that the Holy Spirit refuses regeneration to the one being water baptized?
Absolutely not. In fact I thought that's what you were saying. If that's not what you meant, I'm sorry I misunderstood you. Since your theology teaches that the Holy Spirit regenerates when an individual chooses to get water baptism, that qualifies as the Holy Spirit being compelled by the individual. And if the Spirit doesn't, then He would be refusing regeneration to the one being water baptised.
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If so, you've got a very shaky baptismal regeneration doctrine.
I may have a very shaky baptismal regeneration doctrine. In fact I hope I do. I do not now, nor have I ever, believed that the ritual of baptism or the water of baptism is what saves a person. I have tried scores of ways to explain that I do not believe that, but apparently my explanations are falling on deaf ears (or blind eyes in this case). Your explanation fall on deaf ears because you don't see that you want it both ways. The Holy Spirit must save during water baptism but water baptism doesn't save....that's illogical. In your theology, one does not exist without the other, therefore, water baptism is what saves.
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Again, you can say you agree but you simply "want" it both ways. The Creator can do nothing until given permission by the created...nope, you don't find that in Scripture.
I believe that the Creater can do anything He wants to without anyone's permission. I do believe, however, that a loving Creator would rather have the permission of creatures He created in His own image, that to act in their lives without permission. So it's not that He cannot act without permission, but that He chooses to get permission before he acts. Not always, perhaps, but for salvation, I think so.
Offer some scriptural basis for your belief that God "chooses to get permission". Here's one passage which is the complete opposite of your ideas about God asking for "permission" from man: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 4:48:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, it's the ritual giving life if you think that during the ritual one gets regenerated.
No, I emphatically do not think it's the ritual giving life. Just because life is given during the ritual does not mean it is the ritual itself that is giving life. Perhaps there are those who simply can't see that, and that's OK, I guess. Well, what's not okay is to attempt to separate the ritual from the salvation...since you can't have one without the other. That makes the water ritual the vehicle of life.
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Yes, Paul says there is one baptism and he also says that one baptism is spirit baptism - not water. "..There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Sorry, I don't see the connection between Spirit and baptism in these verses. Certainly there is one Spirit and there is but one baptism and I believe the Spirit is part of that one baptism. But I think it is an unwarrated stretch to say that just because one Spirit and one baptism are mentioned in successive verses that Paul means the one baptism is solely spiritual.
Huh? It's the same thought...don't you see all the "ones"? The "stretch" is to ignore the very clear words of Scripture - "Spirit...baptism".
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 8:25:26 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Okay, that sounds nice but where in Scripture do you find that idea?...that God "wants" our permission?
OK, you may have a point. Nevertheless, I can't accept that God comes to an individual unawares and forces Himself upon them, and then controls every little thing in their lives (even down to chewing their food, according to some) from that moment forward.
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What do you think "eyes to see" means?....it means the giving of faith. And you say God doesn't do that because ...well...because it's not "nice".
I don't recall saying that God doesn't give us "eyes to see" but if I did, I erred. Certainly God gives us "eyes to see and ears to hear."
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How does that work, exactly?....since God's not allowed to choose whom He will give faith? He sort of has to accept pot luck.
God can choose whosoever he wants to give faith to. He does not have to accept pot luck. The thing is that God desires for all men to repent and come to the truth, therefore, whoever does that, God will choose.
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No mention of the Holy Spirit?....you think you wash your own sins away?
Good question. Interestingly, Paul was told in Acts 22:16 to do precisely that: "And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."
So what does it mean to "wash away your sins"? I think it means have your sins forgiven. It happens only by the application of the blood of Christ to our lives. Significantly there appears to be a close connection between baptism and the washing away of sins. The most natural understanding is that baptism is somehow the occasion or the condition of washing away sins. The fact that Saul is instructed with an imperative to wash away his sins shows that it must be the result of baptism. It is impossible for Saul or anyone else to literally wash away his own sins. So, what sense does it make for Saul to be told to "wash away your sins"? How could he possibly do such a thing. The answer is that there is no way that he could do this himself unless the washing away of sins was dependent on something he could do, namely, be baptized.
So the answer to your question is, No. No one can wash away their own sins.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 8:41:35 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I can only know what you think from what you say. And you say that God saves during a ritual, a water ritual. Therefore, that ritual is what saves.
Yes, I do say that God saves during baptism. However, I do not say that baptism itself saves. If it were true that the ritual itself is what saves, then God wouldn't have to do anything during the ritual. I maintain that the ritual does not save -- God does.
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How else to explain that the Holy Spirit must regenerate when you say so ....during water baptism? The Holy Spirit is not regenerating when I say so. The Holy Spirit is regenerating when He says so. I'm merely following the command.
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Since your theology teaches that the Holy Spirit regenerates when an individual chooses to get water baptism, that qualifies as the Holy Spirit being compelled by the individual. And if the Spirit doesn't, then He would be refusing regeneration to the one being water baptised. The Holy Spirit is not compelled by the individual, He is compelled by the Word of God. But when people say that the Holy Spirit does not regenerate during baptism aren't they saying the same thing: The Holy Spirit refuses to regenerate during baptism?
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Your explanation fall on deaf ears because you don't see that you want it both ways. The Holy Spirit must save during water baptism but water baptism doesn't save....that's illogical. In your theology, one does not exist without the other, therefore, water baptism is what saves.
Sorry you see it that way. I can see that the Holy Spirit is the one who regenerates, not baptism. If the Holy Spirit is compelled to save during baptism it's only because God compells Him. He is not compelled by man.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 8:47:27 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Well, what's not okay is to attempt to separate the ritual from the salvation...since you can't have one without the other. That makes the water ritual the vehicle of life.
I disagree. As I've said repeatedly, while salvation occurs during baptism it's not baptism that saves. Only God saves. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. Baptism may be the vehicle of life, but only in the sense that it gets us there, not in the sense that it grants us life.
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Huh? It's the same thought...don't you see all the "ones"? The "stretch" is to ignore the very clear words of Scripture - "Spirit...baptism".
I agree that there's a receiving the Holy Spirit by believers that's referred to as a baptism, but I don't think these are the verses to prove that. Still seems like a stretch to me.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2009 3:33:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Okay, that sounds nice but where in Scripture do you find that idea?...that God "wants" our permission?
OK, you may have a point. Nevertheless, I can't accept that God comes to an individual unawares and forces Himself upon them, and then controls every little thing in their lives (even down to chewing their food, according to some) from that moment forward. God certainly came to Paul unawares, didn't He? Did the Father "force" Himself upon Peter when He revealed the truth of who Christ is?....when God gave Peter and the apostles the faith to believe that revelation? Are you saying God "forced" Himself upon Lydia when He "opened her heart" so that she could understand the gospel message? There is no "force" but there is the presentation of grace when God removes the veil of unbelief.
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What do you think "eyes to see" means?....it means the giving of faith. And you say God doesn't do that because ...well...because it's not "nice".
I don't recall saying that God doesn't give us "eyes to see" but if I did, I erred. Certainly God gives us "eyes to see and ears to hear." Then what do you think "eyes to see" and a "heart to understand" means if not the giving of faith?
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How does that work, exactly?....since God's not allowed to choose whom He will give faith? He sort of has to accept pot luck.
God can choose whosoever he wants to give faith to. He does not have to accept pot luck. I thought God didn't give faith?...that it was something the individual innately dredged-up?
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The thing is that God desires for all men to repent and come to the truth, therefore, whoever does that, God will choose. Are you saying God is not able to get what He wants? There's limited reasoning to suggest that the "all" used refers to each and every individual in the world rather than to "all" classes of people, "for kings and for all that are in authority."
You don't find: "whoever does that, God will choose" or anything even close to that in Scripture. With that reasoning you cannot say God is choosing, the best you can say is that God acknowledges your election of Him...but again the Bible teaches no such thing. No where do we find God choosing men based upon man's choices. God does the choosing - not the created being. "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
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No mention of the Holy Spirit?....you think you wash your own sins away?
Good question. Interestingly, Paul was told in Acts 22:16 to do precisely that: "And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." In Acts 22:16, Paul recounts the words of Ananias to him: "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." It is best to connect the phrase "wash away your sins" with "calling on His name." If we connect it with "be baptized," the Greek participle epikalesamenos ("calling") would have no antecedent. Besides, water is not mentioned in this verse nor in its context. The NT simply does not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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So what does it mean to "wash away your sins"? I think it means have your sins forgiven. It happens only by the application of the blood of Christ to our lives. Significantly there appears to be a close connection between baptism and the washing away of sins. The only significance water has is in its symbolism - what it is a picture of. It is a picture of the work of the Holy Spirit...as water can wash away dirt from the flesh so too must the Holy Spirit wash away our sins.
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The most natural understanding is that baptism is somehow the occasion or the condition of washing away sins. The fact that Saul is instructed with an imperative to wash away his sins shows that it must be the result of baptism. No, all we have here is the imposition of a theological presupposition.
Paul never made baptism any part of his gospel presentations. In 1Cor 15:1-4, Paul gives a concise summary of the gospel message he preached. There is no mention of baptism. In 1Cor 1:17, Paul states that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel," thus clearly differentiating the gospel from baptism. That is difficult to understand if baptism is necessary for salvation. If baptism were part of the gospel itself, necessary for salvation, what good would it have done Paul to preach the gospel, but not baptize? No one would have been saved. Paul clearly understood baptism to be separate from the gospel, and hence in no way efficacious for salvation.
Additional refutation of the view that baptism is necessary for salvation are those who were saved apart from baptism. We have no record of the apostles being baptized, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins (John 15:3 - note that the Word of God, not baptism, is what cleansed them). The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Mat 9:2), and the publican (Luke 18:13-14) also experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2009 3:37:31 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I can only know what you think from what you say. And you say that God saves during a ritual, a water ritual. Therefore, that ritual is what saves.
Yes, I do say that God saves during baptism. However, I do not say that baptism itself saves. If it were true that the ritual itself is what saves, then God wouldn't have to do anything during the ritual. I maintain that the ritual does not save -- God does. In fact, there isn't the slightest evidence that anything is done in water besides getting wet. Frankly, it is illogical to maintain that "man gets saved during water baptism" but "water baptism doesn't save".
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How else to explain that the Holy Spirit must regenerate when you say so ....during water baptism? The Holy Spirit is not regenerating when I say so. The Holy Spirit is regenerating when He says so. I'm merely following the command. When the person makes the decision, when he chooses, when he does the work, the Holy Spirit is then allowed to act but not before. Precisely the opposite of the scriptual declaration that it is: "not of him that willeth".
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Since your theology teaches that the Holy Spirit regenerates when an individual chooses to get water baptism, that qualifies as the Holy Spirit being compelled by the individual. And if the Spirit doesn't, then He would be refusing regeneration to the one being water baptised. The Holy Spirit is not compelled by the individual, He is compelled by the Word of God. You have no evidence that salvation takes place in water only your theology which says it must - that's complusion.
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But when people say that the Holy Spirit does not regenerate during baptism aren't they saying the same thing: The Holy Spirit refuses to regenerate during baptism? No, because God specifically tells us we do not know when the Holy Spirit regenerates(John 3).
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Your explanation fall on deaf ears because you don't see that you want it both ways. The Holy Spirit must save during water baptism but water baptism doesn't save....that's illogical. In your theology, one does not exist without the other, therefore, water baptism is what saves.
Sorry you see it that way. I can see that the Holy Spirit is the one who regenerates, not baptism. If the Holy Spirit is compelled to save during baptism it's only because God compells Him. He is not compelled by man.
The Holy Spirit "is" God. And if, contrary to Scripture, it is insisted that He regenerates only during a water ritual then He is being compelled to follow the dictates of man's theology since Scripture doesn't teach it.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2009 8:04:24 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
OK, you may have a point. Nevertheless, I can't accept that God comes to an individual unawares and forces Himself upon them, and then controls every little thing in their lives (even down to chewing their food, according to some) from that moment forward.
God certainly came to Paul unawares, didn't He? Did the Father "force" Himself upon Peter when He revealed the truth of who Christ is?....when God gave Peter and the apostles the faith to believe that revelation? Are you saying God "forced" Himself upon Lydia when He "opened her heart" so that she could understand the gospel message? There is no "force" but there is the presentation of grace when God removes the veil of unbelief. I guess the way that Jesus came to Paul may be called "forced" but Paul was hardly unaware of Jesus. But I didn't really have in mind people who were already aware of God when I said "God comes to an individual unawares and forces Himself upon them." All the ones you mentioned were already aware of God and made choices based upon further, clarifying revelation concerning Him. I wouldn't call that forcing, but I can see how some might see that as forcing.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2009 8:21:58 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Are you saying God is not able to get what He wants?
Nope. God is able to get what He wants. But I can understand how it might look like I think otherwise, since Scripture plainly says that God wants all to come to repentence, but not all do.
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In Acts 22:16, Paul recounts the words of Ananias to him: "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." It is best to connect the phrase "wash away your sins" with "calling on His name." If we connect it with "be baptized," the Greek participle epikalesamenos ("calling") would have no antecedent. Besides, water is not mentioned in this verse nor in its context. The NT simply does not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Saul is instructed by Ananias to do four actions in this verse: 1) Arise; 2) be baptized; 3) wash away your sins; 4) calling on His name. Both 2) and 3) are in the imperative in the Greek. And the order that they are spoken in indicates that baptism occurs prior to "wash away your sins" If baptism was only a symbolic picture of a prior inner cleansing, I don't think both baptism and washing would be in the imperative. It would be appropriate for 'washing away' to be an aorist participle like "rising up" and "calling upon."
But even though both baptism and washing are in the imperative baptism could still be only a symbol, but then the verse would have to read, "wash away your sins and be baptized." But it doesn't "be baptized" -- an imperative precedes "wash away your sins" -- an imperative. The fact that the two imperatives are in this order compells me to believe that baptism is a preceding condition for the washing away or forgiveness of sins.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2009 5:38:32 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
kelman, I posted 4453 and 4468 to you regarding the order of believing and getting saved, from Acts 16:31.
You have not responded to either of them. Do you have a response, or are you ignoring them because you do not have a response?
You can easily check out the grammar that I've pointed out and I'm curious as to your take on the order, since it contradicts your views.
kelman, your silence is "deafening". By no response, can I conclude that you cannot my pov that believing precedes being saved?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2009 5:48:48 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
OK, you may have a point. Nevertheless, I can't accept that God comes to an individual unawares and forces Himself upon them, and then controls every little thing in their lives (even down to chewing their food, according to some) from that moment forward.
God certainly came to Paul unawares, didn't He? Did the Father "force" Himself upon Peter when He revealed the truth of who Christ is?....when God gave Peter and the apostles the faith to believe that revelation? Are you saying God "forced" Himself upon Lydia when He "opened her heart" so that she could understand the gospel message? There is no "force" but there is the presentation of grace when God removes the veil of unbelief. I guess the way that Jesus came to Paul may be called "forced" but Paul was hardly unaware of Jesus. You weren't talking, nor was I, about people who were "unaware" of Jesus.
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But I didn't really have in mind people who were already aware of God when I said "God comes to an individual unawares and forces Himself upon them." Most people "know" that God exists. Besides, clearly God "forces" no one - including Paul.
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All the ones you mentioned were already aware of God and made choices based upon further, clarifying revelation concerning Him. I wouldn't call that forcing, but I can see how some might see that as forcing. They all made their "choices" because God gave them the gift of faith to believe the truth. Others heard the same message but their spiritually dead hearts could not receive the truth as did Paul, Lydia, Peter and the other apostles, etc.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2009 5:50:03 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Are you saying God is not able to get what He wants?
Nope. God is able to get what He wants. But I can understand how it might look like I think otherwise, since Scripture plainly says that God wants all to come to repentence, but not all do. That really isn't good enough, if you forgive my saying so. We have an apparent contradiction why not try to harmonize it?
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In Acts 22:16, Paul recounts the words of Ananias to him: "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." It is best to connect the phrase "wash away your sins" with "calling on His name." If we connect it with "be baptized," the Greek participle epikalesamenos ("calling") would have no antecedent. Besides, water is not mentioned in this verse nor in its context. The NT simply does not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Saul is instructed by Ananias to do four actions in this verse: 1) Arise; 2) be baptized; 3) wash away your sins; 4) calling on His name. Both 2) and 3) are in the imperative in the Greek. Precisely why this is not speaking of water baptism. Paul is no more capable of washing away his own sins than you or I am. It is the same command as to "believe and repent" which we are no more able to do than we are able to wash away our sins.
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And the order that they are spoken in indicates that baptism occurs prior to "wash away your sins" If baptism was only a symbolic picture of a prior inner cleansing, I don't think both baptism and washing would be in the imperative. It would be appropriate for 'washing away' to be an aorist participle like "rising up" and "calling upon." There is no mention of water. You are simply reading it into the verse.
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But even though both baptism and washing are in the imperative baptism could still be only a symbol, but then the verse would have to read, "wash away your sins and be baptized." But it doesn't "be baptized" -- an imperative precedes "wash away your sins" -- an imperative. The fact that the two imperatives are in this order compells me to believe that baptism is a preceding condition for the washing away or forgiveness of sins.
What you are failing to see is that the baptism Paul is receiving is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - not water. You see every reference to baptism as one of water which is not the case. There are passages which speak to water baptism and they clearly say so but Acts 22:16 is not one of them.
To believe, to be baptized(with the Holy Spirit/washed of all sins), to repent are all things that must be performed by God. He must wash away our sins, He must give us a new resurrected soul so that our life will be turned around from serving self to serving God. This is what Paul received, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - nothing to do with water.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2009 6:56:33 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What you are failing to see is that the baptism Paul is receiving is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - not water. You see every reference to baptism as one of water which is not the case. There are passages which speak to water baptism and they clearly say so but Acts 22:16 is not one of them.
No, I recognize that Paul is receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit - and the baptism of water. They are the same baptism, since Paul is clear that there is only one baptism. Actually, I do not see every reference to baptism as one of water because that is not the case. There are passages which speak to baptism of the Holy Spirit and they clearly say so, but Acts 22:16 is not one of them.
I guess you could say that my default understanding of baptism is that it's of water unless the context clearly says baptism of the Holy Spirit or something similar. Not all uses of the word "baptism" are literal, although what the word "baptism" figuratively describes is real enough.
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To believe, to be baptized(with the Holy Spirit/washed of all sins), to repent are all things that must be performed by God. He must wash away our sins, He must give us a new resurrected soul so that our life will be turned around from serving self to serving God. This is what Paul received, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - nothing to do with water. I agree, for the most part. However, while I don't think the water has anything to do with it, I still think the water is present when God does what He does.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2009 5:37:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
There is no mention of water. You are simply reading it into the verse.
I know you probably don't agree, but the very definition of baptism has water in it, therefore, I don't believe that I am not reading water into the verse. Rather, those who refuse to see a connection between water and baptism are reading water out of the verse. I can't aribtrarily assume that every time baptism is mentioned in Scripture it has nothing to do with water. I'm sure there are those who can, though and more power to 'em, if that's what floats their boat. 
gd, it is important to understand that the Bible portrays two kinds of "baptism". There are the "wet" baptisms, or ritual baptisms, and there are the "dry" ones, or non-ritual baptisms.
Here are the non-ritual baptisms:
Moses, 1 Cor 10:2 the Jews were identified with Moses
The Cross, Luke 12:50 Jesus was identified with our sins
The Holy Spirit, 1 Cor 12:13 all believers are identified as the Body of Christ
Fire, Mat 3:11, maybe the same as the Holy Spirit
Israel in the Millennium with the Holy Spirit, cp. Joel 2:28, Mat 3:11, Mk 1:8, Luke 3:16
Wet, or ritual baptisms:
John's, Mt 3:1-10, Mk 1:4,5, Jn 1:25-33
Christ's, Mk 1:9-11, Mt 3:13-17, Lk 3:21-23, cp Lk 12:50
The Christian's the believer is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, Mt 28:16-20
ps: submission to the right of water baptism is part of having a good conscience: 1 Pet 3:21.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2009 5:00:40 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
There is no mention of water. You are simply reading it into the verse.
I know you probably don't agree, but the very definition of baptism has water in it, therefore, I don't believe that I am not reading water into the verse. Rather, those who refuse to see a connection between water and baptism are reading water out of the verse. I can't aribtrarily assume that every time baptism is mentioned in Scripture it has nothing to do with water. I'm sure there are those who can, though and more power to 'em, if that's what floats their boat.
You have no problem, though, arbitrarily assuming that everytime you see baptism it means water which is unfortunate since there is clear evidence that baptism is often used without regard for water. Those passages are used when salvation or being cleansed from sin is in view, i.e., when the Lord Jesus was "baptized" at the cross(Luke 12:49-50).
"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2009 5:03:13 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5256
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What you are failing to see is that the baptism Paul is receiving is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - not water. You see every reference to baptism as one of water which is not the case. There are passages which speak to water baptism and they clearly say so but Acts 22:16 is not one of them.
No, I recognize that Paul is receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit - and the baptism of water. They are the same baptism, since Paul is clear that there is only one baptism. Actually, I do not see every reference to baptism as one of water because that is not the case. There are passages which speak to baptism of the Holy Spirit and they clearly say so, but Acts 22:16 is not one of them. You now have a contradiction. You've just said some references are to water and some are to Spirit - two baptisms. You simply conflate the two while the scriptural evidence distinguishes between them.
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quote:
To believe, to be baptized(with the Holy Spirit/washed of all sins), to repent are all things that must be performed by God. He must wash away our sins, He must give us a new resurrected soul so that our life will be turned around from serving self to serving God. This is what Paul received, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - nothing to do with water. I agree, for the most part. However, while I don't think the water has anything to do with it, I still think the water is present when God does what He does.
I agree with this part anyway "I don't think the water has anything to do with it". There was no water presently when Christ was "cleansed of sin". There was no water present when Cornelius was saved. No, just as John's baptism was of the same nature as the OT washings in that they were a shadow of future events so too is the NT water baptism pointing to the requirement that we must have our sins washed away.
This is the only baptism for the remission of sins that Scripture speaks about. Any mention of water is simply the shadow of the following:
Mark 10:38-39 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2009 7:20:56 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
gd, it is important to understand that the Bible portrays two kinds of "baptism". There are the "wet" baptisms, or ritual baptisms, and there are the "dry" ones, or non-ritual baptisms.
Agreed. However, what you refer to as "dry" baptisms are not baptisms in the literal sense. The word baptism is used to convey, in a figurative sense, a literal event.
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Here are the non-ritual baptisms:
Moses, 1 Cor 10:2 the Jews were identified with Moses
The Cross, Luke 12:50 Jesus was identified with our sins
The Holy Spirit, 1 Cor 12:13 all believers are identified as the Body of Christ
Fire, Mat 3:11, maybe the same as the Holy Spirit
Israel in the Millennium with the Holy Spirit, cp. Joel 2:28, Mat 3:11, Mk 1:8, Luke 3:16
These are not baptisms in the literal sense of the lexical definition of baptism. They are figurative uses of the word baptism to describe actual events.
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Wet, or ritual baptisms:
John's, Mt 3:1-10, Mk 1:4,5, Jn 1:25-33
Christ's, Mk 1:9-11, Mt 3:13-17, Lk 3:21-23, cp Lk 12:50
The Christian's the believer is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, Mt 28:16-20
These are literal baptism by the definition of the word, and only one has to do with the Christian life, hence Paul's assertion that there is only one baptism (Eph 4:5).
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2009 7:32:53 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You have no problem, though, arbitrarily assuming that everytime you see baptism it means water which is unfortunate since there is clear evidence that baptism is often used without regard for water. Those passages are used when salvation or being cleansed from sin is in view, i.e., when the Lord Jesus was "baptized" at the cross(Luke 12:49-50).
As I said in post #4493, "Actually, I do not see every reference to baptism as one of water because that is not the case." So, for you to say that I arbitrarily assume that every time I see baptism it means water is inaccurate.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2009 9:48:04 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You now have a contradiction. You've just said some references are to water and some are to Spirit - two baptisms. You simply conflate the two while the scriptural evidence distinguishes between them.
There is no contradiction. Paul clearly states that there is one baptism. The fact that there are references to both the physical and spiritual aspects of baptism, doesn't make them two baptisms. There is still only one baptism.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2009 5:13:36 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1856
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You now have a contradiction. You've just said some references are to water and some are to Spirit - two baptisms. You simply conflate the two while the scriptural evidence distinguishes between them.
There is no contradiction. Paul clearly states that there is one baptism. The fact that there are references to both the physical and spiritual aspects of baptism, doesn't make them two baptisms. There is still only one baptism.
Actually, while Paul states in Eph. 4:1-6 that there is one baptism (no doubt the baptism with the Holy Spirit since the Spirit is prominent in this passage and so is the unity of the Spirit), he also speaks of "the doctrine of baptisms" (plural) in Hebrews 6:2, since there are indeed two baptisms, possibly three -- the baptism with the Holy Spirit, water baptism, and the baptism "with fire" (a baptism of judgment).
Why should anyone have a problem with this?
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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