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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2009 9:53:08 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No. Here's the difference. Unless you actually hung on the cross with Jesus can you claim you have been literally identified with His death, burial and resurrection. And the water baptism is a ritual, NOT the reality of it. That's the difference.
So, are you saying that in order for me to really be identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ I literally had to experience that with Him? Doesn't that make it impossible for anyone to be identified with Christ in that way?
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 3:20:47 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, baptism would be in such "august" company. Paul here is speaking of the only baptism which saves, which cleanses us from sin - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This Baptism has nothing to do with water, therefore, Paul has no reason to, and does not, mention water. You are right, water is not mentioned. That's because water is inherent in the definition of baptism and therefore Paul understood that his readers would know that he meant baptism. If he had meant baptism of the Spirit he would have said one baptism of the Spirit. Nope, you are reading water into the verses. Paul only mentions the Spirit. The only "cleansing" of value is that done by the Holy Spirit and this "cleansing" has nothing to do with water - that's why Paul didn't mention water - and that's why there is only one baptism, that of the Holy Spirit.
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In fact, Paul never made baptism any part of his gospel presentations. In 1Cor 15:1-4, Paul gives a concise summary of the gospel message he preached. There is no mention of baptism. In 1Cor 1:17, Paul states that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel," thus clearly differentiating the gospel from baptism. That's difficult to understand if water baptism is necessary for salvation. It's not difficult to understand if you know what Paul is actually saying here. He is not differentiating between baptism and the gospel. He is trying to point out to the Corinthians that the church should be united not split over who baptized whom. It's not difficult to understand if you read what Paul said - he was sent to preach the gospel NOT to baptize. Thereby perfectly differentiating between the gospel and water baptism - one saves, the other doesn't.
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If water baptism were part of the gospel itself, necessary for salvation, what good would it have done Paul to preach the gospel, but not baptize? No one would have been saved. Paul clearly understood water baptism to be separate from the gospel, and hence in no way efficacious for salvation. Paul, in fact, did baptize a few people himself. The fact that his primary mission was to preach the gospel does not mean that he thought baptism was not efficacious for salvation. As Paul said some plant the seed and some harvest. I guess Paul saw himself more as a seed planter than a harvester.
Please, Paul's ministry was responsible for most of the Gentile converts we read about in Scripture. God inspired him to pen most of the NT so don't tell us Paul didn't "harvest".
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 3:23:31 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Look at it this way. When you see the shadow cast by a tree, do you say there are two trees?...of course not, there is only one tree. It's the same with water baptism(the shadow) and the Baptism with the Holy Spirit (the substance) - one baptism.
Great analogy! That's exactly what I've been trying to say. Just like you can't have the shadow without the tree so is the relationship between water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. You can't have one without the other. Great analogy! I like it!
Good, I'm glad you like it. Now, hopefully you can also understand that, yes in fact, you can have one without the other. The only thing of substance is the tree since the shadow is non-existent except for the display of the sun. The tree remains substantial regardless of what happens to the existence of the shadow. The shadow need not exist for a tree to be a tree.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 3:28:18 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lukasaurus
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
A baptism that is literal has to do with water. At least that's what my lexicon says under the definition for baptism.
And this is the problem with Christianity today. People don't let the Bible define itself. You make a very important and accurate point. The Bible is its own dictionary and commentary. Still, there is a place for lexicons.
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But whatever concordance or lexicon you use, you must remember that the Bible is above ALL works and words of men, and is infinite and can define itself. Absolutely! Yet, it is an arduous task so the help of "men" shouldn't be dismissed.
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A good example of this modern definition wreaking havoc on Bible doctrine is this
"The end" - Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
When is the end? I have seen many people just throw this verse out and apply it to the end of someones life. But "the end" is defined in the very next verse! Here, we will begin to disagree. In fact, the context will allow for this "end" to be the death of a believer. We see in vs 9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
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Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Why, it's the end of the tribulation. You have just made an assumption and haven't let the Bible define its own word "end". These verses don't say "the end of the tribulation". It could also mean, and probably does mean, the "end" of an era which ushers in the great tribulation.
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If one had to endure to the end to be saved, then NO ONE THAT HAS EVER DIED has been saved, since NO ONE has seen the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet and therefore no one has endure to the end. Again, you're not letting the Bible be its own commentary. First, you make the assumption that this refers to the "end of the tribulation" and secondly, it is clear from other Scripture that the true child of God will endure to the end - by the grace of God. We see in 2Tim 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 7:32:22 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
gd, water is not inherent in the word baptism. What is inherent is "identification", not water. I've already shown you a number of baptisms, some wet and some dry. But ALL of them are about identification.
Perhaps you can share with me a citation that says the definition of baptism is about identification. I'd be willing to share with you my citations that indicate that water is indeed inherent in the word baptism, if you're interested in seeing them.
No offense, but no thanks. The origin of the word, as I've been told, is that soaking cloth in a dye solution results in the cloth "taking on" the identification of the dye. Or something like that.
Since the Bible has many examples of dry baptisms, water is most certainly not inherent in the word. Where do you find water in the people being baptized into Moses, or the baptism of fire that Jesus faced?
I showed you how all the baptisms, both wet and dry, are linked by an identification. The dry identifications are real, and the wet identifications are ritual.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 7:36:48 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No. Here's the difference. Unless you actually hung on the cross with Jesus can you claim you have been literally identified with His death, burial and resurrection. And the water baptism is a ritual, NOT the reality of it. That's the difference.
So, are you saying that in order for me to really be identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ I literally had to experience that with Him?
In order to have a real identification, you would have to have been hung on the cross with Him. That's what water baptism is for; to represent our identification with His death, burial and resurrection. It isd NOT a real identification, but a ritual identification.
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Doesn't that make it impossible for anyone to be identified with Christ in that way?
Yes. "in that way". That's why we have water baptism; to represent our identification with His death, burial and resurrection. We are identified with Him in the ritual of water baptism. We will NEVER identify with Him in the reality of His crucifixion. That happened once for all.
We use a ritual to represent our identification with Him. We can't experience the actual reality of it. Nor did God want us to.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/7/2009 7:24:05 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No offense, but no thanks. The origin of the word, as I've been told, is that soaking cloth in a dye solution results in the cloth "taking on" the identification of the dye. Or something like that.
Yes, that is included in the definition of baptism. But that doesn't invalidate my point that water is inherent in the meaning of baptism since water is required in order to have a dye solution that a cloth can be soaked in.
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Since the Bible has many examples of dry baptisms, water is most certainly not inherent in the word. Where do you find water in the people being baptized into Moses, or the baptism of fire that Jesus faced? There may be no water in the baptism into Moses or the baptism of suffering that Jesus faced, but there doesn't need to be since the word "baptism" is being used figuratively to describe very real events. They are literal events, but they are figurative baptisms.
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I showed you how all the baptisms, both wet and dry, are linked by an identification. The dry identifications are real, and the wet identifications are ritual. Yes, you showed me and I appreciate it. However, I don't agree with your interpretation nor your conclusions.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/7/2009 7:31:59 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In order to have a real identification, you would have to have been hung on the cross with Him. That's what water baptism is for; to represent our identification with His death, burial and resurrection. It isd NOT a real identification, but a ritual identification.
So without baptism our identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ cannot be represented? Don't you think that the representation of that identification is necessary for salvation? Is there a difference between a ritual identification and a real identification or are they the same thing?
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/7/2009 6:17:52 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In order to have a real identification, you would have to have been hung on the cross with Him. That's what water baptism is for; to represent our identification with His death, burial and resurrection. It isd NOT a real identification, but a ritual identification.
So without baptism our identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ cannot be represented?
I didn't say "cannot be". But, how else, apart from the ritual?
[quoe] Don't you think that the representation of that identification is necessary for salvation?
No. There is no teaching from Scripture that any ritual has any power. It is just a representation. We are saved by God when we believe the gospel.
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Is there a difference between a ritual identification and a real identification or are they the same thing?
They are completely different. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the means by which believers are actually placed "in Christ". This is called "positional truth", and is the basis for all the blessings we have been promised, per Eph 1:3. There is no ritual for this baptism, because it is a real identification.
otoh, we have a ritual to represent our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, through water baptism. But it is not a real identification. You would have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification. But that would have negated His need for the cross, would it not?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 1:23:00 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Good, I'm glad you like it. Now, hopefully you can also understand that, yes in fact, you can have one without the other. The only thing of substance is the tree since the shadow is non-existent except for the display of the sun. The tree remains substantial regardless of what happens to the existence of the shadow. The shadow need not exist for a tree to be a tree.
I can see what you're saying. Still if there is a shadow at all it presupposes the existence of a tree. Actually, I don't disagree. Water baptism is performed because it is "presupposed" one has already come to faith and had his sins washed away by the Holy Spirit.
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Therefore, if there is water baptism at all it presupposes the receiving of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Yes, just as I said above it is "presupposed" or assumed one has already been come to faith and has been washed of his sins. He, therefore, makes the public profession of being water baptized. This is how we see water baptism treated in Scripture as described in Acts 10 concerning Cornelius - after he was converted he was baptized in water.
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While I agree that a tree would still be a tree without a shadow, a tree without a shadow would be a wonder indeed unless other factors are brought into play. Factors need to be brought into play in either case, don't you think? Who's to say which is the "wonder"? Besides, you're taking the analogy waaaaaaay further then is reasonable.
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Same thing with baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit. While receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit would still be receiving the Holy Spirit even without baptism, it would indeed be a wonder to see one without the other, unless other factors are brought into play.
Problem here is that you're just expressing an opinion based on your theology. We simply do not find the Bible teaching that the Holy Spirit is received in water baptism.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 7:01:42 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I didn't say "cannot be". But, how else, apart from the ritual? Indeed, how else?
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Don't you think that the representation of that identification is necessary for salvation?
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No. There is no teaching from Scripture that any ritual has any power. It is just a representation. We are saved by God when we believe the gospel.
I agree that there is no teaching from Scripture that any ritual as any power. I agree that we are saved by God. What I disagree with is when God saves us. Apparently there are some who contend that it is impossible for God to save during baptism, whereas I believe that God Himself says that He will save us during baptism. The fact that God saves when we are baptized imparts no power to the ritual itself. It is still God who works His good pleasure in us by imparting to us the Holy Spirit at that time.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 7:09:20 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
They are completely different. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the means by which believers are actually placed "in Christ". This is called "positional truth", and is the basis for all the blessings we have been promised, per Eph 1:3. There is no ritual for this baptism, because it is a real identification. (bolding mine) I agree that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the means by which believers are actually placed "in Christ." However, I don't get how this is a real identification if we don't have to hang on the cross with Jesus and yet in the paragraph below you say it is not a real identification because we didn't hang on the cross with Jesus. I mean if the term "real identification" means we had to have been with Jesus on the Cross, why does it apply to baptism, but not to the reception of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives?
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otoh, we have a ritual to represent our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, through water baptism. But it is not a real identification. You would have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification. But that would have negated His need for the cross, would it not?
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 9:09:08 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
They are completely different. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the means by which believers are actually placed "in Christ". This is called "positional truth", and is the basis for all the blessings we have been promised, per Eph 1:3. There is no ritual for this baptism, because it is a real identification. (bolding mine) I agree that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the means by which believers are actually placed "in Christ." However, I don't get how this is a real identification if we don't have to hang on the cross with Jesus and yet in the paragraph below you say it is not a real identification because we didn't hang on the cross with Jesus. I mean if the term "real identification" means we had to have been with Jesus on the Cross, why does it apply to baptism, but not to the reception of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives?
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otoh, we have a ritual to represent our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, through water baptism. But it is not a real identification. You would have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification. But that would have negated His need for the cross, would it not?
Sorry, I am not following your question re: a real identification "means we had to have been with Jesus on the cross, why does it apply to baptism , but not to the reception of the indwelling presence of the HS in our lives".
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 11:20:08 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Sorry, I am not following your question re: a real identification "means we had to have been with Jesus on the cross, why does it apply to baptism , but not to the reception of the indwelling presence of the HS in our lives".
You said that in order to be literally identified with Jesus death, burial and resurrection we would actually have to experience His death, burial and resurrection. Then you turned around and stated that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real identification with Jesus death, bural and resurrection, but baptism is not. So, my question is: If, in order for us to be literally identified with Jesus death, burial and resurrection we actually have to experience that, how does that happen in receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit if that, too is a literal identification?
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2009 2:43:35 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Besides, you're taking the analogy waaaaaaay further then is reasonable.
It was you're analogy. Besides I told you I liked it (and I still do)!!! 
I'm teaching Acts 2 in Sunday School on April 26 at the Southern Baptist Church that I attend and I may just use your analogy if the opportunity arises, so thanks.
Just don't forget to tell the truth about the "tree" - it exists without a shadow.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2009 6:30:27 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Just don't forget to tell the truth about the "tree" - it exists without a shadow.
OK. Thanks for the advice.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2009 3:45:36 AM
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Sammy_S
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My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 10:27-30 (ESV)
Why is this so hard to believe?
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"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2009 6:14:33 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Sorry, I am not following your question re: a real identification "means we had to have been with Jesus on the cross, why does it apply to baptism , but not to the reception of the indwelling presence of the HS in our lives".
You said that in order to be literally identified with Jesus death, burial and resurrection we would actually have to experience His death, burial and resurrection. Then you turned around and stated that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real identification with Jesus death, bural and resurrection, but baptism is not.
No, I don't believe I said that. If I did, please give me the post. I recall saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real identification of the believer being in Christ.
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So, my question is: If, in order for us to be literally identified with Jesus death, burial and resurrection we actually have to experience that, how does that happen in receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit if that, too is a literal identification?
Still not sure of what you are asking. Since I just clarified a point, maybe your question isn't relevant. If it still is, please re-phrase.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2009 6:16:18 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 10:27-30 (ESV)
Why is this so hard to believe?
You'll have to ask the arminians.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2009 6:06:44 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No, I don't believe I said that. If I did, please give me the post. I recall saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real identification of the believer being in Christ.
Here's what you said in Post #4535 quote:
You would have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification.
So which is it? Is the real identification the baptism of the Holy Spirit or would we have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification?
See, that's where my confusion comes in. First you say that we would have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification, then turn right around and say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real identification.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2009 7:31:44 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No, I don't believe I said that. If I did, please give me the post. I recall saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real identification of the believer being in Christ.
Here's what you said in Post #4535 quote:
You would have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification.
So which is it? Is the real identification the baptism of the Holy Spirit or would we have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification?
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a dry one, or a real identification. He actually and really identifies all believers with Christ by placing us in union with Christ. It isn't a ritual. It is real. otoh, water baptism is a representative identification, not real, of our identification with the death burial and resurrection of Christ. I'm not seeing what you seem to think is a problem.
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See, that's where my confusion comes in. First you say that we would have had to be with Jesus on the cross in order to experience a real identification, then turn right around and say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real identification.
That's because when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, that is a very real identification. There is no ritual involved in it.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2009 12:26:38 PM
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andresamson83
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I think that identification with the Lord would be both being on the cross with Him that day and water baptism
the thief on the cross experienced a death bed conversion (Luke 23) and he didnt have a chance to get baptised. does that mean he's in hell? No the Lord told him that Hed see him in paradise.
heres what the gospel of mark says about baptism:
"And he (Lord Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."-
MARK 16:15-16
Yes it is important to be baptized, actually being liked directly with salvation. (cause it should immediately follow). But notice it says that its only the person that doesn't believe who get condemned, not the person who is not baptized.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2009 3:29:36 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: andresamson83
I think that identification with the Lord would be both being on the cross with Him that day and water baptism
the thief on the cross experienced a death bed conversion (Luke 23) and he didnt have a chance to get baptised. does that mean he's in hell? No the Lord told him that Hed see him in paradise.
Of course the thief on the cross was saved before baptism was even instituted, so he didn't even need to be baptized, since Christian baptism didn't even exist at the time of his salvation.
quote:
heres what the gospel of mark says about baptism:
"And he (Lord Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."-
MARK 16:15-16
Yes it is important to be baptized, actually being liked directly with salvation. (cause it should immediately follow). But notice it says that its only the person that doesn't believe who get condemned, not the person who is not baptized.
Also notice that it says, "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." It does not say, "he that believeth and does nothing else shall be saved."
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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