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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2009 7:05:23 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1557
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tagurit
We are saved by Christ through Faith not baptism.
Well, of course we are. I've never denied that we are saved by Christ through faith.
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day (John 6:40). I don't see anything in this verse that says that faith is the only requirement for salvation. In fact, in this very verse it says "looks on the son and believes in him should have eternal life." Makes me think that there might be other conditions besides just looking on the Son and believing in Him. Although I will admit that as conditions for salvation go, belief is the biggie.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2009 7:24:46 AM
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Tagurit
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tagurit
We are saved by Christ through Faith not baptism.
Well, of course we are. I've never denied that we are saved by Christ through faith.
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day (John 6:40). I don't see anything in this verse that says that faith is the only requirement for salvation. In fact, in this very verse it says "looks on the son and believes in him should have eternal life." Makes me think that there might be other conditions besides just looking on the Son and believing in Him. Although I will admit that as conditions for salvation go, belief is the biggie.
Well, it would be difficult to believe in something or someone with whom you did not have faith in....... To me at least this verse implies that Faith is a prerequisite.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2009 9:08:30 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1557
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tagurit
Well, it would be difficult to believe in something or someone with whom you did not have faith in....... To me at least this verse implies that Faith is a prerequisite.
Absolutely!!
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2009 12:43:33 PM
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andresamson83
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hey since its only pretty much the three of us still writing i think we should have an intermission from argument for a sec (i'm not blaming you guys, i've been doing it too. although i do admire the way you guys discuss, still finding things in common one with another- namely faith of Christ)
Lets each give one thought they've been enjoying about the Son of God. because that's ultimately what God wants from us christians: to praise His Son and have fellowship with one another in the process.
Heres my thought. This is what He did for me:
Amos 4:11 - "Ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning"
I was condemned already in my sin, and might as well have been in hell because it was my imminent future. But the Lord Jesus out of love so amazing reached down and plucked me out to safety in His hand:feeling my heat in the process.
And now, in his hand, like He said in John 10:27-30
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one."
I was plucked out of the fire, into God's hand: Never ever to be plucked out again. I'm safe forever
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2009 9:47:43 PM
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andresamson83
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This thread has been viewed like 600 times since my post. It would really encourage me and i would really appreciate it, if one person would share a simple devotional thought they've been enjoying. Make for more praise to be offered to Him who is worthy.
Like: He died for me. So now I'll live for Him
We're CHRISTians after all! Its all about Him
thanks, André
< Message edited by andresamson83 -- 5/11/2009 9:55:39 PM >
_____________________________
The world around me is living and dying without HIM
It burdens me a lot
on my knees I'm filled with fears
It prics me in the heart
And it melts my eyes to tears
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2009 2:21:59 AM
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Tagurit
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: andresamson83
This thread has been viewed like 600 times since my post. It would really encourage me and i would really appreciate it, if one person would share a simple devotional thought they've been enjoying. Make for more praise to be offered to Him who is worthy.
Like: He died for me. So now I'll live for Him
We're CHRISTians after all! Its all about Him
thanks, André
These are some of the verses I try and think about every day and since they have a direct relation to the subject matter of the thread, I will repeat it. Christ said all he needed to say in these verses so we would know we have eternal life and that nothing down here or nothing we do can change it once we have accepted Him!!
John 6:37-40
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life,
and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 5:12:57 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 415
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tagurit
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: andresamson83
Heres one later in the scripture:
Acts 16:30-31:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (which doesnt mean that if he gets saved, so will his familly. It means that if he believes in the Lord, he'll be saved, and the same thing goes for his familly)
He was baptized after this
now ill make a statement that I believe unless proven wrong
I dont think theres one example in Scripture describing someone being baptized before believing (unless its a false conversion). That because we believe, are saved and subsequently are baptized I think you are correct. Baptism can't take place until a person believes.
Yes, I agree. You must believe first but when you first believe---you are saved.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I believe the bible says that if you believe(meaning Trust) you will be saved.....it does not say if you believe (mental assent) then are are saved.
Look what Jesus said to people who "believed" Him
John 8:31-32 Jesus spoke to the Jews who had believed him. "If you obey my teaching," he said, "you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth. And the truth will set you free."
Well the Jews believed Jesus but Jesus did not say Ok you are saved then.....No he said obey THEN you are His disciples Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
Free from what? Free from slavery to sin! Salvation!
< Message edited by jjbird -- 6/19/2009 6:51:08 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 6/21/2009 1:15:22 AM
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jjbird
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I guess this thread got burnt out!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 6/21/2009 7:46:29 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 10497
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I believe the bible says that if you believe(meaning Trust) you will be saved.....it does not say if you believe (mental assent) then are are saved.
If you think about it, though, believing something is true is really the same as trusting that it is true. One cannot trust in something unless and until he mentally assents to the truth of that object.
quote:
Look what Jesus said to people who "believed" Him
John 8:31-32 Jesus spoke to the Jews who had believed him. "If you obey my teaching," he said, "you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth. And the truth will set you free."
Well the Jews believed Jesus but Jesus did not say Ok you are saved then.....No he said obey THEN you are His disciples Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
Free from what? Free from slavery to sin! Salvation!
Interesting passage. When John speaks of "believing in Jesus", he always meant salvific faith, which was the whole point of his gospel, from 20:31. His intent was to get people to believe that Jesus was the Christ, and that by believing, have (eternal) life in Him. That is salvation.
So, in John 8, we see Jesus addressing a crowd in the temple. After He told them "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins", in v.24, we then read in v.30 and 31 that many came to believe in Him. There can be no doubt that they were saved at that point. Why?
Because Jesus Himself says so. John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he would hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal lfie, and does not come into judgment, but has papssed out of death into life.
What many people don't like is what Jesus told believers: "if you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
These people equate being a disciple with being saved. But they are not "equal". The point of the Bible is that every believer is to become a disciple, a follower of Jesus.
iow, not every believer is a follower.
btw, I'm still subscribed to this thread. 
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2009 5:16:13 PM
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ClarkKent
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Is salvation a free gift?
Can you earn it by keeping the commandments?
If so, then how is it free?
And if you can lose your salvation, is it because of not keeping the commandments?
And how many sins do you have to commit to lose your salvation?
If you have to keep the commandments to earn your salvation, or if you have to live a good enough life to merit salvation, then it is no longer grace. A stern warning:
I would hate to be the person who answers Jesus when Jesus asks..."why do you think you should enter heaven?" and then the person responds..."Because I lived a good enough life and kept the commandments.
Believers aren't sinless, they sin less. Believers don't enter heaven by keeping the commandments, but keep the commandments because they are saved - not to be saved. Those who try to enter heaven by keeping the commandments or living a good enough life will sadly enter into eternal punishment because they have made a mockery of the grace of God and the ultimate price that Jesus paid on the cross.
Does Grace or eternal security lead genuine born again believers to live a life of sin or sin all they want? NO. As a matter of fact, the bible teaches that Grace does the opposite:
Titus 2:11,12
11For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
In Christ,
Superman
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2009 10:26:31 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carly721
Hello everyone,
I am new to the forums and I am just looking at all the facinating topics of discussion. The OSAS was of great interest only because I studied this for myself not to long ago.
In being a baby Christian (2 yrs) I am thirsty for the truth that is only to be found in scripture. I am a huge fan of Charles Stanley who does believe in OSAS and read many articles that supported this belief. I myself felt very strongly about it. However, in studying and reaching out to my Pastor, he gave me even more resources to read and always comparing against scripture as the only source to confirm what is true and what is not.
Mind you, I was very sure in the OSAS and my study was just to prove that this indeed was correct. However, in studying deeply in scripture I found too many "If"... If we remain in Him, If we perservere, if we continue to abide in Him.
I agree, nothing can snatch us out of our Father's hand... Nothing! However, we can choose to turn away from Him on our own. However, IF we continue to obey and love Christ as instructed to do in the NT, we will remain in Him and He in us. Why do you conclude that "nothing" exempts yourself?....especially in light of all the scripture which says that God protects and preserves those who are His?
The only scriptural conclusion is those who walk away were never really His in the first place.
And where would you come up with that "spiritual conclusion"?
_____________________________
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2009 6:47:51 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1557
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ClarkKent
Is salvation a free gift?
Can you earn it by keeping the commandments?
If so, then how is it free?
And if you can lose your salvation, is it because of not keeping the commandments?
And how many sins do you have to commit to lose your salvation?
Yes, No, It is free, No, and You don't lose your salvation by committing sins.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2009 6:19:18 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 415
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ClarkKent
Is salvation a free gift?
Can you earn it by keeping the commandments?
If so, then how is it free?
And if you can lose your salvation, is it because of not keeping the commandments?
And how many sins do you have to commit to lose your salvation?
If you have to keep the commandments to earn your salvation, or if you have to live a good enough life to merit salvation, then it is no longer grace. A stern warning:
I would hate to be the person who answers Jesus when Jesus asks..."why do you think you should enter heaven?" and then the person responds..."Because I lived a good enough life and kept the commandments.
Believers aren't sinless, they sin less. Believers don't enter heaven by keeping the commandments, but keep the commandments because they are saved - not to be saved. Those who try to enter heaven by keeping the commandments or living a good enough life will sadly enter into eternal punishment because they have made a mockery of the grace of God and the ultimate price that Jesus paid on the cross.
Does Grace or eternal security lead genuine born again believers to live a life of sin or sin all they want? NO. As a matter of fact, the bible teaches that Grace does the opposite:
Titus 2:11,12
11For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
In Christ,
Superman
No one here is speaking about earning.
No one can merit salvation.
However God clearly expresses how he would like for us to accept this free gift!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2009 6:39:43 PM
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cgl1023
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The context for any of the passages you quote is that of blood-bought, spirit filled believer, a member of Christ's body. They will endure to the end as they are one with Christ and producing fruit of the Spirit. It is more difficult to speak about "casual christians" who may have expended their measure of faith in getting out from under condemnation only to be derailed by the world system. These are individual who have faith without works, are not on the narrow path, loving the world. They are savable but probably are not saved under the preceding conditions.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 3:41:08 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 415
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Can someone point me to which of the 184 pages of this awful thread contains discussions of Ephesians 2:8-9? "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. "
It is impossible to have a discussion about this stuff without it getting flushed down a "One Stop" toilet, and I don't have the time to wade through so many pages. Can you imagine if discussions in marriage worked the same way? "Honey, I know you want to discuss a specific aspect of our current finances, but I have to redirect you to our one-stop conversation from 3 years ago when we talked about finances". 
Sorry my friend but what is your point? I am not following you.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2009 1:18:48 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2583
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Can someone point me to which of the 184 pages of this awful thread contains discussions of Ephesians 2:8-9? "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. "
It is impossible to have a discussion about this stuff without it getting flushed down a "One Stop" toilet, and I don't have the time to wade through so many pages. Can you imagine if discussions in marriage worked the same way? "Honey, I know you want to discuss a specific aspect of our current finances, but I have to redirect you to our one-stop conversation from 3 years ago when we talked about finances".
Sorry my friend but what is your point? I am not following you.
Ummm? My point was to ask where in this thread I could find any discussion on Eph 2:8-9, and then to complain about one-stop threads.
So....
How's life going?
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2009 1:54:53 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Ummm? My point was to ask where in this thread I could find any discussion on Eph 2:8-9, and then to complain about one-stop threads.
I do not think we can have a discussion on Eph 2:8,9
(Eph 2:8,9) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
without including the next verse into the passage;
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So it seems we are saved by grace through faith, not of works; but we are saved unto good works. So if there are not good works then there was no salvation. We might want to include these two verses;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
and
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2009 6:05:57 PM
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ManimalX
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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Thanks RC! I didn't want to rehash the same thing if people have already put time into it, which was why I was asking which page this discussion may be on.
Basically, I wanted to discuss the issue of "faith": Eph 2:8-9 indicates that the very faith which is required for salvation is a gift of God. If we could get that faith by ANY work of our own, there would be room for boasting: "Well, *I* believed because I was smart enough to figure it all out", "Oh yeah? Well *I* believed because I studied under Dr. Thus-and-so", etc. However, there are some who claim that this plain reading is wrong, and that it isn't REALLY saying that faith is a gift from God... I was just curious and wanted to read some of these arguments if they have been made.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2009 7:12:14 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1557
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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ManimalX,
In Ephesians 2:8-9 the Greek word translated "gift" is neuter in gender. The only other neuter word in these two verses is the word translated "saved." Therefore, grammatically speaking the gift is actually salvation which is received by grace through faith.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2009 7:13:44 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 614
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Basically, I wanted to discuss the issue of "faith": Eph 2:8-9 indicates that the very faith which is required for salvation is a gift of God. If we could get that faith by ANY work of our own, there would be room for boasting: "Well, *I* believed because I was smart enough to figure it all out", "Oh yeah? Well *I* believed because I studied under Dr. Thus-and-so", etc. However, there are some who claim that this plain reading is wrong, and that it isn't REALLY saying that faith is a gift from God... I was just curious and wanted to read some of these arguments if they have been made.
In the time I've spent on this thread I don't recall anyone putting forth the argument that faith isn't a gift from God.
However, doesn't Romans 10:17 say that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God"?
My questions to you would then be:
Do all who hear the word of God receive the gift of faith?
Can we choose to reject or accept the gift of faith?
Is hearing and/or accepting the gift of faith considered "works"?
How do you define "works" in Eph 2:9?
_____________________________
Wild by nature; grafted by Grace
(Rom 11:13-25)
<><
FYI: According to US Code, flying the flag upside-down is a recognized signal that our nation is in distress or crisis.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2009 10:53:08 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2583
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
ManimalX,
In Ephesians 2:8-9 the Greek word translated "gift" is neuter in gender. The only other neuter word in these two verses is the word translated "saved." Therefore, grammatically speaking the gift is actually salvation which is received by grace through faith.
Ah, the age old "gender" argument  Sorry, but that doesn't work because "grace", "faith" AND, "salvation" are all feminine. We don't need to be told that "grace" and even "salvation" are not of ourselves, which hints that the gift "not of ourselves" is faith.
But don't take my word for it:
quote:
"I am quite aware of what critics have to say here as to gender; but it is equally true as to grace, and to say, "by grace . . . and that not of yourselves," is simply nonsense; but by faith might be supposed to be of ourselves, though grace cannot. Therefore the Spirit of God adds, "and that [not it] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." That is, the believing is God's gift, not of ourselves. And this is confirmed by what follows, "not of works." But the object of the apostle is to shew that the whole thing was of grace and of God-God's workmanship-a new creation. So far, grace and faith and all go together." - John Darby
quote:
"2:8 By grace ye are saved through faith - Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing. And this is not of yourselves - This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God.
2:9 Not by works - Neither this faith nor this salvation is owing to any works you ever did, will, or can do." - John Wesley's Explanatory notes on the Whole Bible
quote:
"v. 8. Note, Every converted sinner is a saved sinner. Such are delivered from sin and wrath; they are brought into a state of salvation, and have a right given them by grace to eternal happiness. The grace that saves them is the free undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves them, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus, by means of which they come to partake of the great blessings of the gospel; and both that faith and that salvation on which it has so great an influence are the gift of God. The great objects of faith are made known by divine revelation, and made credible by the testimony and evidence which God hath given us; and that we believe to salvation and obtain salvation through faith is entirely owing to divine assistance and grace; God has ordered all so that the whole shall appear to be of grace." - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible
quote:
" and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, (John 6:65) (Philippians 1:29) and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha" - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
quote:
"I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:
``In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''
His reply was:
``Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position). In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''
Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe" - Editor of John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
quote:
"The initiation, as well as the increase, of faith, is from the Spirit of God, not only by an external proposal of the word, but by internal illumination in the soul" - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Bible Commentary Critical and Explanatory
Of course, you could probably dig up some quotes from scholarly theologians that say the exact opposite, but it just goes to show it is by no means "settled" territory. I am versed in the arguments of both camps, and have been persuaded by the biblical arguments by those who ascribe "faith" itself as a gift as well.
I find it hard to believe that if my faith had been due to my own mental aptitude, or my economic class, or my culture, etc... then it would be wide open for bragging and boasting. "Well, too bad that guy wasn't smart enough to figure out the truth! Good thing my mind works so much better!"
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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