|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 8:53:41 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Of course, you could probably dig up some quotes from scholarly theologians that say the exact opposite, but it just goes to show it is by no means "settled" territory.
You're right and I did! He says in effect what I said -- that Greek grammar disproves that faith is what is being referred to as the gift in Ephesians 2:8. In addition he says, "This verse actually shows that faith is not a gift since grace and faith are carefully distinguished. We are saved by grace, as God's part; but through faith, as our part, as distinct from the grace given. Faith is not a gift of grace and the result of regeneration; it is a response to grace and a prerequisite to regeneration." -- Jack Cottrell in The Faith Once for All: Biblical Doctrine For Today, page 200.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 10:45:34 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2258
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Philippians 1:29 (KJV)
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
it is given -- Greek, "it has been granted as a favor," or "gift of grace." Faith is the gift of God (Eph 2:8), not wrought in the soul by the will of man, but by the Holy Ghost (John 1:12, 13).
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
GD...Sure sounds like faith is a gift in this verse.
Just my opinion...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 11:11:32 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10497
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Philippians 1:29 (KJV)
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
it is given -- Greek, "it has been granted as a favor," or "gift of grace." Faith is the gift of God (Eph 2:8), not wrought in the soul by the will of man, but by the Holy Ghost (John 1:12, 13).
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
GD...Sure sounds like faith is a gift in this verse.
Just my opinion...
Bob
Why can't the "granting as a favor" regarding believing be understood as the opportunity to hear the gospel, since the Bible indicates that man must hear so he can believe, per Rom 10?
Phil 1:29 doesn't support the idea that God is the cause of believing anyway. Granting of a favor doesn't connote causing anything.
Rather, granting a favor connotes giving what is being asked for (ie; the favor). iow, believing is a response to the gospel; that cannot be denied. So, God surely grants the ability to believe to whosoever responds to the gospel message; which is to say, all who respond to the gospel can believe.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 12:16:17 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2258
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
FG...unless the Holy Spirit opens your understanding of the gospel and moves your heart, you would care less.
Just my opinion...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 12:30:03 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Philippians 1:29 (KJV)
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
it is given -- Greek, "it has been granted as a favor," or "gift of grace." Faith is the gift of God (Eph 2:8), not wrought in the soul by the will of man, but by the Holy Ghost (John 1:12, 13).
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
GD...Sure sounds like faith is a gift in this verse.
Just my opinion...
Bob
Indeed, just your opinion. Believe me I would love for faith to be a gift. Then I could just sit back without even thinking and let God give me the faith he wants me to have so that He can save me. But the fact that the Bible doesn't teach that constrains me from believing it.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 12:32:30 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10497
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
FG...unless the Holy Spirit opens your understanding of the gospel and moves your heart, you would care less.
Just my opinion...Bob
Sounds more like a very judgmental comment to me.
Just my opinion.
ps: Luke 6:37 is God's opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 3:26:20 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 6727
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Indeed, just your opinion. Believe me I would love for faith to be a gift. Then I could just sit back without even thinking and let God give me the faith he wants me to have so that He can save me. But the fact that the Bible doesn't teach that constrains me from believing it.
Well least we forget there is a gift of faith;
(1Co 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
(1Co 12:8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
(1Co 12:9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 8:52:24 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
rcjames,
Yes, I agree that there is indeed a gift of faith. However, I don't believe the faith spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is the gift of faith. I believe all Christians have faith, but I don't believe all Christians have the spiritual gift of faith.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 9:21:27 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 6727
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
rcjames,
Yes, I agree that there is indeed a gift of faith. However, I don't believe the faith spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is the gift of faith. I believe all Christians have faith, but I don't believe all Christians have the spiritual gift of faith.
agreed
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2009 3:22:34 PM
|
|
|
wordtheology
Posts: 30
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
|
On the subject of Eternal Security,
If this is the case, then John 14: 19 may be the defense. 'because I live, you will live also.'
The principle should still apply.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2009 9:38:43 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 6727
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
On the subject of Eternal Security,
If this is the case, then John 14: 19 may be the defense. 'because I live, you will live also.'
The principle should still apply.
I really do not think the really important question is not can we lose our salvation, but whether one is really saved in the first place.
When I am visiting with my Pastor friends who are very stong on the OSAS thingy this always comes up.
If a person is "saved" in a Church that is OSAS it is taught that they can never lose that "salvation", and taught often and strongly.
If that person, say a few years later, turns out to be a complete reprobate; baby killer, mama raper, God hating, etc. etc; then what.
My OSAS Pastor friends always give the same answer, "Well he was never saved to begin with".
And I concur, but that Pastor and the Chruch has been telling the man he was saved and perfectly secure all those years; and there in lies the problem.
Paul when writing to
(2Co 1:1) ...... unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
He presents this very pertinant question;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
And that question, with instructions for the examination is rarely given to the congregations in Churches that are "Once saved always saved" proponents.
Christs makes this point very strongly in;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Christ says of these folks who were throroughly convinced that they were Believers, but were not; "I never knew you".
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2009 7:10:28 PM
|
|
|
wordtheology
Posts: 30
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
On the subject of Eternal Security,
If this is the case, then John 14: 19 may be the defense. 'because I live, you will live also.'
The principle should still apply.
I really do not think the really important question is not can we lose our salvation, but whether one is really saved in the first place.
I guess you are more concerned with discerning, if indeed, they have 'passed into life', which, unless they made a false commitment, would be hard to dispute. They say backsliding believers sometimes even reach the point where the consequence is physical death. Otherwise, we are cautioned 'the Lord is able to make him stand.'
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2009 7:26:52 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 6727
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
On the subject of Eternal Security,
If this is the case, then John 14: 19 may be the defense. 'because I live, you will live also.'
The principle should still apply.
I really do not think the really important question is not can we lose our salvation, but whether one is really saved in the first place.
I guess you are more concerned with discerning, if indeed, they have 'passed into life', which, unless they made a false commitment, would be hard to dispute. They say backsliding believers sometimes even reach the point where the consequence is physical death. Otherwise, we are cautioned 'the Lord is able to make him stand.'
But you are not addressing the point of never really being saved to begin with?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2009 8:59:35 PM
|
|
|
wordtheology
Posts: 30
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
|
rcjames,
I would say, the Lord is able to deal with the backsliders. As for those who didn't 'enter life', it would seem the opportunity remains. Still, the cautions against judging apply. I would think the person's attestation should help discern which category they fit. Certainly a more difficult decision for a pastor than a lay person.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2009 10:04:34 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 6727
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
rcjames,
I would say, the Lord is able to deal with the backsliders. As for those who didn't 'enter life', it would seem the opportunity remains. Still, the cautions against judging apply. I would think the person's attestation should help discern which category they fit. Certainly a more difficult decision for a pastor than a lay person.
One of the verses I referenced was 2 Corinthians 13:5 where it speaks to us examining ourselves, not examining someone else.
I feel it brings up the point that when one realizes that they are not living out the admonishment of Paul here;
(Rom 12:1-2) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
That we should really look into ourselves to see whether we are of the faith or not; and not automatically cling to the "Eternal Security" thingy that might not be there, because the possibility exists that we were never saved to begin with.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 12:17:46 AM
|
|
|
wordtheology
Posts: 30
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
rcjames,
I would say, the Lord is able to deal with the backsliders. As for those who didn't 'enter life', it would seem the opportunity remains. Still, the cautions against judging apply. I would think the person's attestation should help discern which category they fit. Certainly a more difficult decision for a pastor than a lay person.
One of the verses I referenced was 2 Corinthians 13:5 where it speaks to us examining ourselves, not examining someone else.
I feel it brings up the point that when one realizes that they are not living out the admonishment of Paul here;
(Rom 12:1-2) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
That we should really look into ourselves to see whether we are of the faith or not; and not automatically cling to the "Eternal Security" thingy that might not be there, because the possibility exists that we were never saved to begin with.
Thanks
RC
Yes, I agree that self-examination is important. Yet, we are also admonished to 'hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.' Hebrews 3: 6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 6:33:21 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
Paul, writing to the Galatians says, "Formerly, when you did not know God you were enslaved to those that by name are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain" (Galatians 4:8-11).
What I don't understand is why Paul would feel it necessary to give this warning to the Galatians if he knew there was nothing they could do to lose their salvation. I mean even if they did turn back "to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world" they would still be saved according to those who profess OSAS. Or, as rcjames has pointed out, perhaps they were never saved to begin with, even though Paul says, "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God."
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 9:58:22 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 6727
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Paul, writing to the Galatians says, "Formerly, when you did not know God you were enslaved to those that by name are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain" (Galatians 4:8-11).
What I don't understand is why Paul would feel it necessary to give this warning to the Galatians if he knew there was nothing they could do to lose their salvation. I mean even if they did turn back "to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world" they would still be saved according to those who profess OSAS. Or, as rcjames has pointed out, perhaps they were never saved to begin with, even though Paul says, "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God."
Good Scripture, and great point derived from the Scripture.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 1:00:43 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
On the subject of Eternal Security,
If this is the case, then John 14: 19 may be the defense. 'because I live, you will live also.'
The principle should still apply.
I really do not think the really important question is not can we lose our salvation, but whether one is really saved in the first place.
When I am visiting with my Pastor friends who are very stong on the OSAS thingy this always comes up.
If a person is "saved" in a Church that is OSAS it is taught that they can never lose that "salvation", and taught often and strongly.
If that person, say a few years later, turns out to be a complete reprobate; baby killer, mama raper, God hating, etc. etc; then what.
My OSAS Pastor friends always give the same answer, "Well he was never saved to begin with".
And I concur, but that Pastor and the Chruch has been telling the man he was saved and perfectly secure all those years; and there in lies the problem.
Paul when writing to
(2Co 1:1) ...... unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
He presents this very pertinant question;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
And that question, with instructions for the examination is rarely given to the congregations in Churches that are "Once saved always saved" proponents.
Christs makes this point very strongly in;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Christ says of these folks who were throroughly convinced that they were Believers, but were not; "I never knew you".
Thanks
RC
good post RC.
this is one topic I don't care to argue about
if one is dogmatic in the calvinism and/or armeniism
I do like to "discuss" what the Scriptures actually say as a whole.
When I'm told "well, they weren't saved anyway" I just feel that's
a cop out because it questions the "doctrine."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 1:04:44 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
The thread is Salvation and Eternal Security
I believe in Salvation.
I believe in Eternal Security.
But I don't believe in OSAS.
And I'm not contradicting myself.........................LOL
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 8:47:03 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10497
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: wordtheology
On the subject of Eternal Security,
If this is the case, then John 14: 19 may be the defense. 'because I live, you will live also.'
The principle should still apply.
I really do not think the really important question is not can we lose our salvation, but whether one is really saved in the first place.
When I am visiting with my Pastor friends who are very stong on the OSAS thingy this always comes up.
If a person is "saved" in a Church that is OSAS it is taught that they can never lose that "salvation", and taught often and strongly.
If that person, say a few years later, turns out to be a complete reprobate; baby killer, mama raper, God hating, etc. etc; then what.
Then what? Did Christ not die for all his sins? Did he believe that Christ died for his sins? If yes to both questions (I am convinced the first is true), then he is still saved, and is called a rebellious child of God.
Did David, as a mature believer, commit adultery, then plan and plot the death of Bathsheba's husband, to cover his own sin? Was he saved? Of course he was.
Why do we believers seem to have such a problem with believers who "go off the deep end"?
quote:
Christs makes this point very strongly in;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Christ says of these folks who were throroughly convinced that they were Believers, but were not; "I never knew you".
#1 Matt 7:20 refers back to v.15, which is about false teachers, not whether people are saved or not.
#2 v.21-23 are about those who are basing their kingdom entrance on what they did for Christ, and there is nothing in the passage to indicate that they "thougth" they were believers.
How can one not know whether they have believed or not? Unless that one doesn't have full possession of his own mind, I suppose.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 8:49:30 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10497
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The thread is Salvation and Eternal Security
I believe in Salvation.
I believe in Eternal Security.
But I don't believe in OSAS.
And I'm not contradicting myself.........................LOL
Since you don't believe in "OSAS" shouldn't you rather claim to believe in "conditional security" rather than "eternal security"?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 9:18:09 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6318
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
I go to a SOuthern Baptist Church. They believe in OSAS. However I don't think you will find that statement anywhere in the bible. You will find where Jesus said no one can snatch one of you from my hand. Or something to that effect. This is one of the scriptures used to back up OSAS.
While I believe we cannot be snatched(taken) from Jesus' hand we can rebel and jump from his hand. Unlike some I think there are some that were actually saved and later gave in to Satan's temptation and rebeled, rejected GOd and Jumped out of salvation. But they did not fall they jumped.
Even one of God's angels, a being already in the presence of God Almighty rebeled and was kicked out of Heaven. We now call that angel satan.
So I guess I am a little like Lapidoth. I believe in Salvation, I believe in eternal security but not necessarily OSAS.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 12:57:22 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I go to a SOuthern Baptist Church. They believe in OSAS. However I don't think you will find that statement anywhere in the bible. You will find where Jesus said no one can snatch one of you from my hand. Or something to that effect. This is one of the scriptures used to back up OSAS.
While I believe we cannot be snatched(taken) from Jesus' hand we can rebel and jump from his hand.
Based on what?
Jesus, the Savior said Himself He will not lose one that has been to Him by the Father...
quote:
Unlike some I think there are some that were actually saved and later gave in to Satan's temptation and rebeled, rejected GOd and Jumped out of salvation. But they did not fall they jumped.
Beleivers are said to have passed death and have eternal life... How does one lose eternal life? How does pass beyond death only to return to it?
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life.
John 6
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. . . . No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. . . For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.'
As well...
Philippians 1:6 “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”
quote:
So I guess I am a little like Lapidoth. I believe in Salvation, I believe in eternal security but not necessarily OSAS.
How can one say they believe in eternal security when they argue that poeple can lose eternal life? Major contradiction...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 1:39:51 AM
|
|
|
ManimalX
Posts: 2565
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
|
Heya Sam,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I go to a SOuthern Baptist Church. They believe in OSAS. However I don't think you will find that statement anywhere in the bible. You will find where Jesus said no one can snatch one of you from my hand. Or something to that effect. This is one of the scriptures used to back up OSAS.
No, you won't find the exact term in the Bible, but the principle is there just like other terms or phrases that are implicit but aren't in the Bible such as "Trinity", "rapture", or even "dinosaur".
There are a lot of passages in Scripture, both OT and NT, that nearly scream out "Once saved, always saved" and "eternal security". I won't regurgitate all of them here, but you brought up a few verses that I thought were important to examine.
The first one you referenced is John 10:28-30 - " I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
You said:
quote:
While I believe we cannot be snatched(taken) from Jesus' hand we can rebel and jump from his hand. Unlike some I think there are some that were actually saved and later gave in to Satan's temptation and rebeled, rejected GOd and Jumped out of salvation. But they did not fall they jumped.
I would challenge you to consider the implications of this statement against the above Scripture. Jesus was emphatic about His iron-clad vice grip with which He holds His sheep (believers). Does it really make sense that nobody can pry us our of His hand, but we could just "jump out" willy-nilly?
Also, wouldn't that be a form of "self-snatching" (did I just coin a phrase?)? If Christ can keep other people from snatching us, I think He can keep us from snatching ourselves! This is basically the same idea that says that suicide is wrong because it is murder... the murder of self. I just don't think Scripture allows for even self-snatching.
This ties in directly with Romans 8:38-39, in which Paul wrote, " For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
To me it seems vividly clear that "self" is definitely part of that list of things that can never separate us from Jesus. Notice all of the categories that God inspired Paul to include: spirit beings, physical beings, all distance, time, space, life, death... and I am definitely sure that "self" is part of "anything else in all creation".
Even "self" cannot separate us from Jesus. He says He won't lose even ONE that the Father gives to him.
quote:
Even one of God's angels, a being already in the presence of God Almighty rebeled and was kicked out of Heaven. We now call that angel satan.
Being in God's presence doesn't equal Salvation. Remember, Adam and Eve got to walk around the garden with Him before they rebelled. Also, remember the book of Job, in which it is clear that Satan still has access to God's presence and throne.
quote:
So I guess I am a little like Lapidoth. I believe in Salvation, I believe in eternal security but not necessarily OSAS.
If that is true, if you can be saved and then lost, then what does "eternal security" mean to you?
Thanks for your time, I look forward to your reply.
Peace,
Matt
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
