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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 6:50:20 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I go to a SOuthern Baptist Church. They believe in OSAS. However I don't think you will find that statement anywhere in the bible. You will find where Jesus said no one can snatch one of you from my hand. Or something to that effect. This is one of the scriptures used to back up OSAS.
While I believe we cannot be snatched(taken) from Jesus' hand we can rebel and jump from his hand. Unlike some I think there are some that were actually saved and later gave in to Satan's temptation and rebeled, rejected GOd and Jumped out of salvation. But they did not fall they jumped.
Even one of God's angels, a being already in the presence of God Almighty rebeled and was kicked out of Heaven. We now call that angel satan.
So I guess I am a little like Lapidoth. I believe in Salvation, I believe in eternal security but not necessarily OSAS.
I, too, attend a Southern Baptist Church. I may not agree with you on a lot, Qtman, but on this I'm with you 100%. I think the term "lose" one's salvation is a misnomer. I, like you, think salvation can be given back, just like any gift. I can't imagine why anyone would want to, but the many warnings in Scripture to not fall away convince me that it's possible.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 7:00:03 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Beleivers are said to have passed death and have eternal life... How does one lose eternal life? How does pass beyond death only to return to it?
How does one gain eternal life? Does eternal life exist like a stream and we just hop into it? And if it has a beginning is it really eternal? Infinite, maybe, but eternal? God is eternal. The life we get from Him is a little different since it has a beginning.
I'm beginning to think that "eternal" is a primarily a statement about the quality of life with God and not about it's duration.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 8:39:34 AM
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Qtman
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Oh I believe eternal is a time. It is never ending.
However lets looks at examples from the bible of falling.
Lucifer - Fell
Adam - Fell
Job - Held to his faith but was encouraged to curse God and die. I beleive this was both a physical and spiritual death.
In the Book of Luke we have Jesus teaching in parables that I believe relate to this. The Lost Coin, The Lost Sheep, The Prodigal Son. Each one of these parables talk about something that was held and present but became lost. I can't get anything out of this other than we can indeed become lost after we are saved. I believe the parable of the Prodigal son back up my contention that we can turn our backs on God and reject him and in essence throw away our salvation. I also believe it teaches that God is waiting with open arms to receive us back unto Him when we repent and turn back to Him.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 8:48:38 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I go to a SOuthern Baptist Church. They believe in OSAS. However I don't think you will find that statement anywhere in the bible. You will find where Jesus said no one can snatch one of you from my hand. Or something to that effect. This is one of the scriptures used to back up OSAS.
While I believe we cannot be snatched(taken) from Jesus' hand we can rebel and jump from his hand. Unlike some I think there are some that were actually saved and later gave in to Satan's temptation and rebeled, rejected GOd and Jumped out of salvation. But they did not fall they jumped.
Even one of God's angels, a being already in the presence of God Almighty rebeled and was kicked out of Heaven. We now call that angel satan.
So I guess I am a little like Lapidoth. I believe in Salvation, I believe in eternal security but not necessarily OSAS.
I, too, attend a Southern Baptist Church. I may not agree with you on a lot, Qtman, but on this I'm with you 100%. I think the term "lose" one's salvation is a misnomer. I, like you, think salvation can be given back, just like any gift. I can't imagine why anyone would want to, but the many warnings in Scripture to not fall away convince me that it's possible.
Salvation is not a box or a bar of gold or a shiney new Camaro. It begins with being birthed into a new realm and becoming a member of the heavenly Kingdom purchased by the blood of the Lamb. That new life is not mortal nor is it subject to drifts attitude. How do you return a spiritual life that was given life and birthed by God the Holy Spirit? Does Christ's redeeming blood for you become wasted?
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 8:50:14 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Lucifer - Fell
Adam - Fell
Which of those were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God and reborn a new creature with the spirit given life by God?
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 8:51:51 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
In the Book of Luke we have Jesus teaching in parables that I believe relate to this. The Lost Coin, The Lost Sheep, The Prodigal Son. Each one of these parables talk about something that was held and present but became lost. I can't get anything out of this other than we can indeed become lost after we are saved. I believe the parable of the Prodigal son back up my contention that we can turn our backs on God and reject him and in essence throw away our salvation. I also believe it teaches that God is waiting with open arms to receive us back unto Him when we repent and turn back to Him.
At what point did any of those (The Lost Coin, The Lost Sheep, The Prodigal Son) become the property or son of anyone else?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 8:58:13 AM
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Qtman
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Well of course neither of them were. In fact one was an angel already with God and the other was upon creation in no need of salvation. My point is if these two could have fallen why can the rest of us not. Please understand this is not in my opinion saying anything against Eternal Security. I believe the saved are eternally secure in their salvation so to speak. I do not think anything or any outside source can threaten it. I do however have a problem with someone that goes on to reject God. I think it is possible, and have actually witnessed it, for a saved person to submit to the temptations of satan to the point they actually turn their backs on God and in some cases curse God as Job was encouraged by his wife to do. Short of repenting and turning from their wicked ways I cannot see these people in heaven. In the one case I am thinking of I truly believe the man was saved because I saw the works he did afterwards. I also saw what he became later.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 9:10:29 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
I do however have a problem with someone that goes on to reject God. I think it is possible, and have actually witnessed it, for a saved person to submit to the temptations of satan to the point they actually turn their backs on God...
John said they left us because they never were part of us and their actions prove it. Jesus called them tares, pretending to be "wheat" but, in the end, proving by their fruit to have been fakes all along.
To put it another way:
A Faith that Fails at the Finish was Faulty from the First.
quote:
Short of repenting and turning from their wicked ways I cannot see these people in heaven.
I used to think the same thing until I found that if salvation became void, no amount of repenting or tears could restore salvation. Scripture says that the only way to be saved a second time would be for Jesus to return to earth in the flesh and endure the cross again. If you can lose it, you can't get it back.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 11:59:42 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I, too, attend a Southern Baptist Church. I may not agree with you on a lot, Qtman, but on this I'm with you 100%. I think the term "lose" one's salvation is a misnomer. I, like you, think salvation can be given back, just like any gift. I can't imagine why anyone would want to, but the many warnings in Scripture to not fall away convince me that it's possible.
What of the many mentions of God keeping that which is His... Not "lose" one... Oh yes... We have discounted that idea, that word... God somehow can maintain His perfected record because He didn't lose, the person by giving back means God didn't really lose the person... Yet it says God will finish what He started... Quite a dilemma you have... God says He will finish what He started... That is a statement of completeness. You are promoting a doctrine that is contrary to what God says He does. If God truly completes what He starts they never were saved to start with because they were on aboard due to their own agenda/will, or God doesn't finish what He starts... Those are really you only two options...
When the flocks starts disappearing they don't blame the sheep, they look to the Shepard... And in the case the Shepard is Christ...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 12:11:02 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
How does one gain eternal life?
Solely by the grace of God...
quote:
Does eternal life exist like a stream and we just hop into it?
quote:
And if it has a beginning is it really eternal?
How can something that God decreed have a beginning? Like Him, it always was, is and shall be...
quote:
Infinite, maybe, but eternal?
No... infinite doesn't cover it... That speaks to something really great and big...
quote:
God is eternal.
Yet eternal life is merely a term regarding the quality of life with God? It seems you are applying a different meaning of the word from one point to another...
quote:
The life we get from Him is a little different since it has a beginning.
Since that life stems directly from God it's as eternal as He is... No beginning... You seem to be mixing the eternal with the temporal...
quote:
I'm beginning to think that "eternal" is a primarily a statement about the quality of life with God and not about it's duration.
There is nothing in the meaning of the word that would even start to lend itself to the above concept...
e⋅ter⋅nal
/ɪˈtɜrnl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-tur-nl] Show IPA
Use eternal in a Sentence
–adjective
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3. enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
4. Metaphysics. existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 12:22:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Well of course neither of them were. In fact one was an angel already with God and the other was upon creation in no need of salvation. My point is if these two could have fallen why can the rest of us not. Please understand this is not in my opinion saying anything against Eternal Security. I believe the saved are eternally secure in their salvation so to speak.
That's double speak... They are either secure or not...
quote:
I do not think anything or any outside source can threaten it. I do however have a problem with someone that goes on to reject God.
If you don't think ANYTHING can threaten it, that would include the person themselves, since they in fact fall under the meaning and use of the word... So in fact your statement is in error, since something can threaten it, so your statement that you don't think ANYTHING isn't true..
quote:
I think it is possible, and have actually witnessed it, for a saved person to submit to the temptations of satan to the point they actually turn their backs on God and in some cases curse God as Job was encouraged by his wife to do.
How did you know the person was saved? I recall you telling people they don't who is saved or not on other threads... In fact you blasted them for judging ones' s salvation...Yet... With that in mind how can you post you witnessed it someone lose their salvation?
quote:
Short of repenting and turning from their wicked ways I cannot see these people in heaven.
No, that would be short of Christ bearing the cross again... Once YOU say they are gone, they are done for...
quote:
In the one case I am thinking of I truly believe the man was saved because I saw the works he did afterwards. I also saw what he became later.
And you've told others they were wrong to pass such judgments on other people.. You told them they cannot know the heart of the person, yet you can?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 12:31:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I guess this is my thoughts also. I don't think Euty and I are that far apart on the subject. It is not the concept of OSAS I don't like. It is the terminology because I find it to be misleading. As RC said not to a Christian but to the unsaved. I know I have seen a lot of people "walk the isle" "answer certain questions correctly" and be declared as saved. I have honestly questioned some of these because I saw no change. THese are the people I worry about when teaching or preaching OSAS.
On what basis do you question them? You tell others they cannot judge the heart of man, only God can, yet you can?
quote:
You see I believe Jesus was the supreme and final sacrifice for our sins. I believe you can only be born into a family once. This applies to physical and spiritual birth.
The bible says the Spirit is life... Not death... If one born again, it's of the Spirit, which is life...
quote:
The prodigal son was born into his family but chose to leave it. He also chose to return to it after he hit rock bottom. I think Jesus told this story for a reason. We are born, through spiritual rebirth, into the family of God. If we choose to leave that family I believe God is waiting for us to return. Actually I beleive He, through the Holy Spirit, keeps after us until we do or, we reach the point where He said He will not always strive with man.
The difference is I do not see it as being saved again. I see it as being welcomed back.
Which doesn't add up... There is NO verse that even implies salvation can be a suspended item... This "lukewarm" version you promote contradicts countless biblical concepts... The Shepard just stands by while the flock does whatever it pleases with His hands in His pocket hoping the sheep come back?
God finishes what He starts, and Christ "lives" always to make intersession... This idea that God gives up is a fallacy...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 12:39:35 PM
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Lapidoth
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The thread is Salvation and Eternal Security
I believe in Salvation.
I believe in Eternal Security.
But I don't believe in OSAS.
And I'm not contradicting myself.........................LOL
Since you don't believe in "OSAS" shouldn't you rather claim to believe in "conditional security" rather than "eternal security"?
Nope.
You have a different definition of the terms.
It's all the different "doctrines" that confuse us.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 1:12:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The thread is Salvation and Eternal Security
I believe in Salvation.
I believe in Eternal Security.
But I don't believe in OSAS.
And I'm not contradicting myself.........................LOL
Since you don't believe in "OSAS" shouldn't you rather claim to believe in "conditional security" rather than "eternal security"?
Nope.
You have a different definition of the terms.
It's all the different "doctrines" that confuse us.
Especially when folks say the believe and don't believe in basically the same thing...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 2:26:51 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
No, that would be short of Christ bearing the cross again... Once YOU say they are gone, they are done for...
Actually Scripture is the one saying;
(Heb 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(Heb 6:5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(Heb 6:6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
And
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Heb 10:28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(Heb 10:29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It would seem to me that QTman was simply agreeing with Scripture.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 3:26:46 PM
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ManimalX
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Sam (or others who believe in conditional salvation): can you please reply to the post I made on the previous page? http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4464758
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 3:42:00 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6318
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Sam (or others who believe in conditional salvation): can you please reply to the post I made on the previous page? http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4464758
Actually I think Rcjames just did.
I admit there is scripture that leads one to believe OSAS but there is equal amounts of scripture that would lead one to believe one can fall.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 3:48:35 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Sam (or others who believe in conditional salvation): can you please reply to the post I made on the previous page? http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4464758
Actually I think Rcjames just did.
I admit there is scripture that leads one to believe OSAS but there is equal amounts of scripture that would lead one to believe one can fall.
You know QTman, all the verses that the OSAS folks use speak to the faithfullnes of God, and I agree; but they ignore the free will of man.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 3:53:15 PM
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Eutychus
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Perseverance of the Saints is pretty easy to grasp, but conditional security varies almost individual to individual. On one extreme, there those that believe that any unguarded moment or any unconfessed and repented of sin at the moment of death results in instant citizenship in hell to the other extreme that a truly born again individual is unlikely to lose salvation but, if they do, it will be a long drawn out affair and many choices leading to final loss of salvation - and many views in between.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 3:56:56 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
You know QTman, all the verses that the OSAS folks use speak to the faithfullnes of God, and I agree; but they ignore the free will of man.
No, I have a free will. But I also have a new nature that guides that free will. I also have a Father that will nudge or whip me if I stray from the center of His will. If He didn't nudge, chastise, or whip me, I would KNOW that I wasn't His to begin with.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 4:00:15 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6318
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Perseverance of the Saints is pretty easy to grasp, but conditional security varies almost individual to individual. On one extreme, there those that believe that any unguarded moment or any unconfessed and repented of sin at the moment of death results in instant citizenship in hell to the other extreme that a truly born again individual is unlikely to lose salvation but, if they do, it will be a long drawn out affair and many choices leading to final loss of salvation - and many views in between.
That is why I said I do not believe you and I are that far off. I do not believe every little thing will condemn one to hell. I also don't think we all have a "free ticket or get out of jail free card" either. I think it is possible for a man to fall. I think scripture shows that. But I believe for it to happen a Saved person has to willfully with intent disobey God and sin. Ideally a saved person would not do that but it is possible.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 4:14:38 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
That is why I said I do not believe you and I are that far off. I do not believe every little thing will condemn one to hell. I also don't think we all have a "free ticket or get out of jail free card" either. I think it is possible for a man to fall. I think scripture shows that. But I believe for it to happen a Saved person has to willfully with intent disobey God and sin. Ideally a saved person would not do that but it is possible.
After I left the Free Will Baptists and had been attending a SBC church for a while, I also decided that we weren't that far apart. Given an example of someone living in obvious sin after being an apparent Christian for a number of years, we both agreed that the one in question was not saved in the depths of that willful, sinful living.
The difference was that I (at that time) was willing to call the person a former brother gone bad and the Southern Baptist said they have never really been any kin.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 4:23:10 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2565
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Perseverance of the Saints is pretty easy to grasp, but conditional security varies almost individual to individual. On one extreme, there those that believe that any unguarded moment or any unconfessed and repented of sin at the moment of death results in instant citizenship in hell to the other extreme that a truly born again individual is unlikely to lose salvation but, if they do, it will be a long drawn out affair and many choices leading to final loss of salvation - and many views in between.
That is why I said I do not believe you and I are that far off. I do not believe every little thing will condemn one to hell. I also don't think we all have a "free ticket or get out of jail free card" either. I think it is possible for a man to fall. I think scripture shows that. But I believe for it to happen a Saved person has to willfully with intent disobey God and sin. Ideally a saved person would not do that but it is possible.
I have been a Christian for over 30 years and I still "willfully with intent disobey God and sin". Now, that is obviously to my shame, but by your definition I guess I lost my salvation?
I just don't get the "lose your salvation" thing after being "born again". The mental picture is just silly to me: "Hey! I'm born again!" "Hey, this stinks, I'm crawling back into the womb and unbirthing myself!" "Ok, I'm better now, I'm gonna be born again again!"
The Prodigal son was still the father's son, even when he was eating pig slops. He squandered his inheritance, but he never lost his place as a son and he never lost his home, even when he was being a dummy.
If your salvation is real, you will never lose it, even if you are a dummy for a while.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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