|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 5:11:41 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Paul treats believing in Christ as a completed action. I prefer to call it initial faith, since the Bible is clear that "some will fall away from the faith".
Jesus makes this statement;
(Joh 8:31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
(Joh 8:32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
"If you continue in my Word, THEN you shall be my diciplles indeed." IF you continue; if you contnue; if you continue.
Quite correct, RC. In order to be a disciple of Jesus, one certainly must continue in His Word. That's what a follower does. But why do you equate "by My disciple" with "be saved"? I see no connection. You certainly understand that some of God's children can and will rebel.
quote:
You keep trying to get folks into Heaven that have no faith in God through Christ, do not continue in the Word, do not even believe that God is real, and live the life of a baby rapin' mama killer!!!!!
I know your tender heart just cannot bear anyone who doesn't deserve heaven could actually get there. But, for me, even you and I don't deserve going there, so it doesn't matter how many really gross sins you want to dredge up, they have all been paid for by Christ, which you seem to conveniently forget.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 5:17:09 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 7852
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Quite correct, RC. In order to be a disciple of Jesus, one certainly must continue in His Word. That's what a follower does. But why do you equate "by My disciple" with "be saved"? I see no connection. You certainly understand that some of God's children can and will rebel.
There you go again; now a non-believing baby rapin' mama killer who has not faith in God, who does not follow Scripture, and who Jesus says is not his diciple; is going to Heaven.
Why don't you just admit that you are a Universalist and think everyone will go to Heaven?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 5:20:09 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5279
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
My lexicon says the word is in the aorist tense, not present perfect. Further, the Greek for "shall be saved" is in the future indicative passive. That's very odd, FG. Every commentary that I've ever read on John 3:16 claims "whosoever believes" is in the present active participle form, best translated "keeps on believing". Do you think Jesus did not know His Greek verb forms or did John get it wrong?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 5:33:36 PM
|
|
|
Nick_Drake
Posts: 601
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
You cannot prove they can't taken away any more than we can prove definatively that they can be.
The Bible gives us very clearly and plainly stated unconditional promises, which is my support. But, if you reject those plainly stated unconditional promises, I guess there isn't any more reason for debate. AT this point, you are just rejecting what the Bible promises, imho.
Unconditional? Where do people in the church find this in the Bible? Show me where the Bible says I don't have to do anything to be saved? This is what the Bible says you must 'do' to be saved:
Acts 3:19
"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out..."
No turning to God; no repentance...no forgiveness of sins. That is not an unconditional salvation. You have misrepresented the gospel message, my friend.
It's frustrating to see how the Bible's message of salvation not being conditional on works of the law has somehow morphed into an entirely unconditional message of salvation. Salvation not being conditional on works of the law does not make salvation unconditional.
Because of Christ, no works of the law are required to be saved. It's no longer required to perform some of the specific activities set forth in the law to be saved. What you believe is just another glaring example of how the church's ignorance of the old covenant produces these foolish, uneducated, and misguided doctrines.
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 5:35:35 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5279
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
It's frustrating to see how the Bible's message of salvation not being conditional on works of the law has somehow morphed into an entirely unconditional message of salvation. Salvation not being conditional on works of the law does not make salvation unconditional. Amen! Preach it, brother Nick!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 5:47:33 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Quite correct, RC. In order to be a disciple of Jesus, one certainly must continue in His Word. That's what a follower does. But why do you equate "by My disciple" with "be saved"? I see no connection. You certainly understand that some of God's children can and will rebel.
There you go again; now a non-believing baby rapin' mama killer who has not faith in God, who does not follow Scripture, and who Jesus says is not his diciple; is going to Heaven.
Kinda bothers you some, huh?
Have you heard of the grace of God?
Did you know that Jesus Christ died for all of our sins?
Did you know that God promises unconditionally to never leave or forsake us?
quote:
Why don't you just admit that you are a Universalist and think everyone will go to Heaven?
Because I don't believe that junk. Only those who have been regenerated, forgiven, justified, adopted as sons, and given eternal life will go to heaven. All of which is given the moment one believes in Christ as Savior. What happens after that is a completely different issue.
btw, any comment regarding my exegesis of Acts 16:31 from #5349?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 5:50:49 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
My lexicon says the word is in the aorist tense, not present perfect. Further, the Greek for "shall be saved" is in the future indicative passive. That's very odd, FG. Every commentary that I've ever read on John 3:16 claims "whosoever believes" is in the present active participle form, best translated "keeps on believing". Do you think Jesus did not know His Greek verb forms or did John get it wrong?
Hi drmark!
I was quoting from Acts 16:31, and I'm sure the scholar Paul knew what he was writing. He was quite clear that from the completed action of believing, one will be saved.
The discussion has centered around Paul's answer to the jailer, who asked Paul a very direct and straightforward question: "what must I do to be saved?" And Paul answered just as direct and straightforward, with: "believe (completed action) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 6:02:44 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
You cannot prove they can't taken away any more than we can prove definatively that they can be.
The Bible gives us very clearly and plainly stated unconditional promises, which is my support. But, if you reject those plainly stated unconditional promises, I guess there isn't any more reason for debate. AT this point, you are just rejecting what the Bible promises, imho.
Unconditional? Where do people in the church find this in the Bible?
How many times have I quoted Heb 13:5 to you? Where is there anything conditional in that promise?
quote:
Show me where the Bible says I don't have to do anything to be saved?
Gee, I can't to that, because the Bible is very clear: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:31. Why did you ask this very silly question?
quote:
This is what the Bible says you must 'do' to be saved:
Acts 3:19
"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out..."
Do you know what "repent" means? The word is a combination of meta, for change, and noia, for the mind. It means to change the mind, which is what one does when they are repenting.
The word used in Acts 3:19 is specific for changing your mind about how you thought you would be saved (by your miserable good deeds, etc) and place all of your trust in Jesus Christ who died for you on the cross.
quote:
No turning to God; no repentance...no forgiveness of sins. That is not an unconditional salvation. You have misrepresented the gospel message, my friend.
I think you haven't been paying attention to any of these posts, which centers around Paul's answer to the jailer as to how to be saved. Paul's answer was clear and direct and simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. It cannot be stated any more clear than that.
Do you think Acts 3:19 says anything different than what Paul told the jailer? If so, that's your whole problem.
quote:
It's frustrating to see how the Bible's message of salvation not being conditional on works of the law has somehow morphed into an entirely unconditional message of salvation. Salvation not being conditional on works of the law does not make salvation unconditional.
God's promise in Heb 13:5 is unconditional. That's the issue of what I speak of when I say unconditional.
quote:
Because of Christ, no works of the law are required to be saved. It's no longer required to perform some of the specific activities set forth in the law to be saved.
Another of your problems seems to be that you think that works of the law were required to be saved. Just ain't so, my friend. God's plan has always been based on grace through faith. Gen 3:15 is the first of many promises related to the Messiah.
While those in the OT were saved by faith in the coming Messiah, we in the NT are saved by faith in the risen Messiah. The OT looks forward to the cross, and the NT looks back to the cross. But that's how all are saved. Works were never a requirement.
quote:
What you believe is just another glaring example of how the church's ignorance of the old covenant produces these foolish, uneducated, and misguided doctrines.
Yea, tell me about what's ignorant, foolish, uneducated, and misguided! 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 8:28:04 PM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 614
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Yea, tell me about what's ignorant, foolish, uneducated, and misguided!
Well, for starters ...
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
How many times have I quoted Heb 13:5 to you? Where is there anything conditional in that promise?
Why do you keep quoting Heb 13:5 to prove unconditional salvation?
Heb 13:5 is a quotation of an OT promise -- made as part of a covenant -- that is clearly conditional.
In addition, every instance of this promise being made in scripture relates to times of affliction, temptation or adversity for the believer. Look at the circumstances under which it was given to Jacob (Gen 28:15), to Israel (Deu 31:6), to Joshua (Deut 31:8; Jos 1:5), to Solomon (1Ch 28:20) -- even to those in the book of Hebrews. This promise is not made to determine one's eternal salvation, rather it is a promise made to strengthen one's faith so that they will remain obedient and abiding in God so that the may be saved. Big difference.
In Deut 31:16-17, concerning the very people that God had promised to be with, not to fail, or forsake, (Deut 31:6-8) he now says, “this people ... will forsake me ... and I will forsake them” (Deut 31:16-17). Is God saying that he will go back on his promise? No, because it was a conditional promise made as part of a covenant (Deuteronomy 31:16), which was based on blessings for obedience (Leviticus 26:3-13; Deuteronomy 28:1-14), and curses for disobedience (Leviticus 26:14-39; Deuteronomy 28:18-68). This same principle is also given elsewhere in the scriptures.
In Jos 1:5-9 and Jos 7:10-12. We see here God’s promises to Joshua, “I will be with you: I will not fail you, nor forsake you”, and “the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.” These promises to prosper him were conditional upon obedience to his word (vv7-8). However, later we see the sin of Achan, the defeat of Israel when they fought against Ai, and Joshua’s prayer to God (Joshua 7:1-9), because God was not with him or Israel in battle, and about 36 men died (Joshua 7:5). The reason that God had left them was sin (Joshua 7:10-12). In Jos 7:12 God says "neither will I be with you any more, except you destroy the cursed things from among you." Do you dare to say there is no condition here?
2 Ch 15:1-2
1 And the spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:
2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him, Hear me Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while you are with him, and if you seek him, he will be found of you; but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.
2 Ch 24:20
20 And the spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said to them, Thus says God, Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD, so that you cannot prosper? because you have forsaken the LORD, he has also forsaken you.
Trying to pass off God's promise to never leave or forsake as "unconditional" makes God a liar.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think you haven't been paying attention to any of these posts, which centers around Paul's answer to the jailer as to how to be saved. Paul's answer was clear and direct and simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. It cannot be stated any more clear than that.
Why do you keep claiming that believing on the Lord is all that is necessary to be saved? How can one believe on the Lord without understanding who He is, what He did and what He is going to do? Is faith not a gift? Does faith not come by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17)? If so, then verse 32 plays an even bigger role in being saved than does verse 31.
_____________________________
Wild by nature; grafted by Grace
(Rom 11:13-25)
<><
FYI: According to US Code, flying the flag upside-down is a recognized signal that our nation is in distress or crisis.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 8:40:11 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Yea, tell me about what's ignorant, foolish, uneducated, and misguided!
Well, for starters ...
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
How many times have I quoted Heb 13:5 to you? Where is there anything conditional in that promise?
Why do you keep quoting Heb 13:5 to prove unconditional salvation?
Well, for 'starters', I haven't been using Heb 13:5 to prove unconditional salvation, because it doesn't prove that, nor does the Bible teach unconditional salvation. I recommend you read the last 10-15 pages, and you will see what I have been positing.
Salvation is conditional....on believing in Christ, per Paul's answer to the jailer, in Acts 16:31.
quote:
Heb 13:5 is a quotation of an OT promise -- made as part of a covenant -- that is clearly conditional.
Excuse me? God makes this statement: I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. How is that conditional?
quote:
In addition, every instance of this promise being made in scripture relates to times of affliction, temptation or adversity for the believer. Look at the circumstances under which it was given to Jacob (Gen 28:15), to Israel (Deu 31:6), to Joshua (Deut 31:8; Jos 1:5), to Solomon (1Ch 28:20) -- even to those in the book of Hebrews. This promise is not made to determine one's eternal salvation, rather it is a promise made to strengthen one's faith so that they will remain obedient and abiding in God so that the may be saved. Big difference.
No it's a promise of eternal security.
quote:
Trying to pass off God's promise to never leave or forsake as "unconditional" makes God a liar.
No. All the passages you quoted speak of life on earth, and God's policy for those who forsake Him; He will remove grace from their lives. But Heb 13:5 is unconditional.
quote:
Why do you keep claiming that believing on the Lord is all that is necessary to be saved?
Because Paul's answer to the jailer was just that simple and clear. Do you disagree with Paul's answer?
quote:
How can one believe on the Lord without understanding who He is, what He did and what He is going to do?
It should be obvious from the passage that Paul and Silas' praying and singing in the jail also landed on the jailer's ears.
quote:
Is faith not a gift?
Correct. It is not a gift. Eternal life is the gift, per Rom 3:24, 6:23 and ch 5.
quote:
Does faith not come by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17)? If so, then verse 32 plays an even bigger role in being saved than does verse 31.
OK, so you disagree with Paul's answer. Just for the record. 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 8:46:49 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 7852
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Kinda bothers you some, huh?
Have you heard of the grace of God?
No, actually what bothers me is folks putting out the misinformation that one can have no faith in God, live the life of a hellion, and have eternal securtiy at the same time.
That kind of misinformation will keep many a poor soul who never knew Christ from seeking him by relying on a security that just isn't there.
This is the exact reason that Paul suggested that those in the Church in Corinth examine themselves.
A person who was never saved, but thought that they were, now denying God, and living a full blown sinful life hears this tripe, and says "Wow I am secure"; and they go merrily on their way to eternal separation from God.
It seems to me that the folks that put out this false doctrine are going to have to answer for those they assist in continuing to be separated from God. For those that aid others on the way to hell will answer;
(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Thannks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 9:15:03 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No, that isn't the deal. The jailer asked him what he must do to be saved, and Paul didn't give him a "key condition", as you suggest. No, in fact, he completely answered the question with "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". If more were required, Paul wasn't complete nor honest. Paul may not have been complete in his answer, but he was totally honest. It wasn't long before, in the very next verse, he is speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer and his household. If what he said there had nothing to do with salvation then how did the jailer's family get saved? They were not present when Paul told the jailer what's recorded in verse 31. And then all of them were baptized.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 9:19:20 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Why do you require the word "only" to accept what v.31 plainly states. The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and Paul told him to believe on Christ and he would be saved. Such wording doesn't need the word "only" to make it so. You are simply resisting what is very clear and plain.
I don't required the word "only." I don't think it even belongs there. But there are those on this thread who insist that when Paul told the jailer to believe and he would be saved that he really meant only believe and do nothing else and you will be saved. I don't believe that, so I'm not the one requiring the world "only."
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 9:24:34 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
You have to ignore the words of Paul to believe that there is more to salvation than believe.
Ignore? I don't think so. I believe what Paul said was completely truthful, honest, and key to salvation. I just don't believe what he said was the complete story. Verse 32 tells me that Paul completed the story when he got to the jailer's house.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 9:27:49 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake
We all know salvation is by faith apart from works of the law.
Please review the posts of GD. He seems to have a different pov than that.
Actually, I completely agree with Nick_Drake. Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works of the law.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2009 11:22:02 PM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 614
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Well, for 'starters', I haven't been using Heb 13:5 to prove unconditional salvation,
Yes, you have. You claim that because God will never leave or forsake one who has believed, their salvation is secure and unconditional; There is no need for faith, obedience, repentance, fellowship, fruits, abiding, walking in the Spirit, etc.
quote:
... nor does the Bible teach unconditional salvation.
That is correct. Salvation is conditional upon believing (having faith), obeying, repenting, fellowship, fruits, abiding, walking in the Spirit, etc.
quote:
I recommend you read the last 10-15 pages, and you will see what I have been positing.
As you are well aware, FG, I am not new to this thread or to your POV. And, I have been following your posts.
quote:
Salvation is conditional....on believing in Christ, per Paul's answer to the jailer, in Acts 16:31.
Let's not play games. This argument is about OSAS -- what happens after one professes belief in Christ; can they be secure that they will be ushered into eternity with God because of a one-time profession of faith or because they are found abiding in the faith upon His return?
quote:
quote:
Heb 13:5 is a quotation of an OT promise -- made as part of a covenant -- that is clearly conditional.
Excuse me? God makes this statement: I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. How is that conditional?
Which was a reminder of what God told Israel in the OT.
God also said: “this people ... will forsake me ... and I will forsake them”. Deut 31:16-17
The Spirit of God also said: "but if you forsake him, he will forsake you." 2Ch 15:2
The Spirit of God also said: "because you have forsaken the LORD, he has also forsaken you." 2Ch 24:20
In the Greek, there are no less than five negatives in Heb 13:5, and these connected with two verbs and one pronoun twice repeated. To give a literal translation is scarcely possible by Greek scholars who understand the genius of the language, let alone by you.
In order to determine what is meant, one must look for insight in the context of the OT usage. I've already shown you the passages that prove this promise is conditional. Not to mention passages that directly state God CAN, HAS and DOES leave us or forsake us -- and the circumstances under which He does so.
Deny it all you want, if you don't have a problem making God a liar.
quote:
quote:
In addition, every instance of this promise being made in scripture relates to times of affliction, temptation or adversity for the believer. Look at the circumstances under which it was given to Jacob (Gen 28:15), to Israel (Deu 31:6), to Joshua (Deut 31:8; Jos 1:5), to Solomon (1Ch 28:20) -- even to those in the book of Hebrews. This promise is not made to determine one's eternal salvation, rather it is a promise made to strengthen one's faith so that they will remain obedient and abiding in God so that the may be saved. Big difference.
No it's a promise of eternal security.
OK. Show me where eternal security is spoken of in any of these verses.
quote:
quote:
Trying to pass off God's promise to never leave or forsake as "unconditional" makes God a liar.
No. All the passages you quoted speak of life on earth, and God's policy for those who forsake Him;
You just said those passages promise eternal security, now you say they don't speak of eternity at all -- which is it? Those passages clearly show the condition that if you forsake God, He will forsake you. If He forsakes you on earth, what scripture do you have to show He will not forsake you in eternity as well?
quote:
He will remove grace from their lives.
Can one be saved without grace?
quote:
But Heb 13:5 is unconditional.
Heb 13:5 was a reminder of what God promised Israel in the OT. In the OT it was conditional, thus in Hebrews it is conditional. Heb 13:5 is NOT a new promise.
quote:
quote:
Why do you keep claiming that believing on the Lord is all that is necessary to be saved?
Because Paul's answer to the jailer was just that simple and clear. Do you disagree with Paul's answer?
Nope. But, Paul's answer was more than verse 31.
quote:
quote:
How can one believe on the Lord without understanding who He is, what He did and what He is going to do?
It should be obvious from the passage that Paul and Silas' praying and singing in the jail also landed on the jailer's ears.
What is obvious is that the jailer was asleep and only awakened by the earthquake. It is not obvious that he heard their prayers and worship -- that is an assumption. It is also not obvious that their prayers and worship consisted of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ -- that is another assumption.
quote:
quote:
Is faith not a gift?
Correct. It is not a gift.
Wrong. It is a gift per Rom 12:3 and Phil 1:29. There is only one faith (Eph 4:5) -- the faith of Jesus Christ. If you have a faith that comes from your flesh, you do not have the faith that saves.
quote:
quote:
Does faith not come by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17)? If so, then verse 32 plays an even bigger role in being saved than does verse 31.
OK, so you disagree with Paul's answer.
No, I disagree with you; I agree with Paul's complete answer in the passage. The jailer asked how to be saved. Paul answered he must believe. Paul then shared the word of God with him and his family so that they could believe. Without verse 32, the jailer and his family could not have the one true faith of Christ that only comes by hearing the word of God.
_____________________________
Wild by nature; grafted by Grace
(Rom 11:13-25)
<><
FYI: According to US Code, flying the flag upside-down is a recognized signal that our nation is in distress or crisis.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 7:36:00 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Kinda bothers you some, huh?
Have you heard of the grace of God?
No, actually what bothers me is folks putting out the misinformation that one can have no faith in God, live the life of a hellion, and have eternal securtiy at the same time.
That kind of misinformation will keep many a poor soul who never knew Christ from seeking him by relying on a security that just isn't there.
So, you are more comfortable with the idea that God will most certainly leave and forsake any of His children who rebel?
quote:
This is the exact reason that Paul suggested that those in the Church in Corinth examine themselves.
I invite you to read through the entire book of 1 Corinthians and count the times Paul affirms their saved status. I'll give you a hint; more than 30. That, in spite of all the awful stuff he mentioned about their lifestyles, etc.
quote:
A person who was never saved, but thought that they were, now denying God, and living a full blown sinful life hears this tripe, and says "Wow I am secure"; and they go merrily on their way to eternal separation from God.
The part you really miss badly is the whole key to being saved. If this person was "never saved" as you say, that means they never believed in Christ in the first place, so I have no argument about that.
What I do have issue with is one who has believed, is saved, justified, forgiven, regenerated, is a child of God, and you think God will leave and forsake them if they rebel.
quote:
It seems to me that the folks that put out this false doctrine are going to have to answer for those they assist in continuing to be separated from God. For those that aid others on the way to hell will answer;
(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Thannks
RC
Everyone who spouts false doctrine will most certainly face the consequences of that. Especially those who teach, per James 3:1 "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment."
I believe your pov tramples the grace of God. Since no one ever deserves salvation, even rebellion cannot separate us from the love of God.
Your pov eliminates grace totally. You will most certainly face the consequences of that. Your pov teaches "you must save yourself".
My pov teaches that when God saves us, we stay saved.
We are saved by grace.
We are kept by that same matchless grace, not by keeping our noses clean.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 7:43:13 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No, that isn't the deal. The jailer asked him what he must do to be saved, and Paul didn't give him a "key condition", as you suggest. No, in fact, he completely answered the question with "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". If more were required, Paul wasn't complete nor honest.
Paul may not have been complete in his answer, but he was totally honest.
Nope. If he wasn't complete, he wasn't honest.
quote:
It wasn't long before, in the very next verse, he is speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer and his household. If what he said there had nothing to do with salvation then how did the jailer's family get saved?
I already told you. v.32 explains where Paul gave the gospel to his household. That's how they got saved.
quote:
They were not present when Paul told the jailer what's recorded in verse 31. And then all of them were baptized.
Which is my point. Since they were not present when Paul evangelized the jailer, he repeated to them what he told the jailer. Then he told all of them about believer's baptism.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 7:44:22 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Why do you require the word "only" to accept what v.31 plainly states. The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and Paul told him to believe on Christ and he would be saved. Such wording doesn't need the word "only" to make it so. You are simply resisting what is very clear and plain.
I don't required the word "only." I don't think it even belongs there. But there are those on this thread who insist that when Paul told the jailer to believe and he would be saved that he really meant only believe and do nothing else and you will be saved. I don't believe that, so I'm not the one requiring the world "only."
Since he said "believe and be saved", what else is there to do? What did he leave out?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 7:46:16 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
You have to ignore the words of Paul to believe that there is more to salvation than believe.
Ignore? I don't think so. I believe what Paul said was completely truthful, honest, and key to salvation. I just don't believe what he said was the complete story. Verse 32 tells me that Paul completed the story when he got to the jailer's house.
What he said in v.31 was complete. To claim otherwise simply rejects what he told the jailer. If more was involved, what he said in v.31 wasn't complete, and therefore, not honest.
I've already explained to you v.32. Paul evangelized the jailer's household and then told all of them about believer's baptism.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 8:11:56 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Well, for 'starters', I haven't been using Heb 13:5 to prove unconditional salvation,
Yes, you have. You claim that because God will never leave or forsake one who has believed, their salvation is secure and unconditional; There is no need for faith, obedience, repentance, fellowship, fruits, abiding, walking in the Spirit, etc.
I don't "claim" it. God promises such. That's what Heb 13:5 actually says. If one's salvation is not secure by that promise of God, then Heb 13:5 is just a lie.
quote:
quote:
... nor does the Bible teach unconditional salvation.
That is correct. Salvation is conditional upon believing (having faith), obeying, repenting, fellowship, fruits, abiding, walking in the Spirit, etc.
None of what you say here is accurate other than believing.
quote:
quote:
I recommend you read the last 10-15 pages, and you will see what I have been positing.
As you are well aware, FG, I am not new to this thread or to your POV. And, I have been following your posts.
Your comments lead me to believe otherwise.
quote:
quote:
Salvation is conditional....on believing in Christ, per Paul's answer to the jailer, in Acts 16:31.
Let's not play games. This argument is about OSAS -- what happens after one professes belief in Christ; can they be secure that they will be ushered into eternity with God because of a one-time profession of faith or because they are found abiding in the faith upon His return?
I've been dealing with this issue throughout. Again, go back 10-15 pages if you need to, but I've already addressed this.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Heb 13:5 is a quotation of an OT promise -- made as part of a covenant -- that is clearly conditional.
Excuse me? God makes this statement: I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. How is that conditional?
Which was a reminder of what God told Israel in the OT.
God also said: “this people ... will forsake me ... and I will forsake them”. Deut 31:16-17
The Spirit of God also said: "but if you forsake him, he will forsake you." 2Ch 15:2
The Spirit of God also said: "because you have forsaken the LORD, he has also forsaken you." 2Ch 24:20
All of these verses deal with the specifics of different kings, and their rule. If they forsake God, He will forsake their rule. I already dealt with that issue and showed passages to demonstrate that.
quote:
In the Greek, there are no less than five negatives in Heb 13:5, and these connected with two verbs and one pronoun twice repeated. To give a literal translation is scarcely possible by Greek scholars who understand the genius of the language, let alone by you.
Hm. So what kind of translation have all the translators given us then?
quote:
In order to determine what is meant, one must look for insight in the context of the OT usage. I've already shown you the passages that prove this promise is conditional. Not to mention passages that directly state God CAN, HAS and DOES leave us or forsake us -- and the circumstances under which He does so.
Heb 13:5 is a direct quote from Deut 31:6,8 when Moses addressed the people and Joshua before Joshua led them into the land. I invite you to read that passage and tell me where any conditions are found.
quote:
Deny it all you want, if you don't have a problem making God a liar.
Just read Deut 31:6,8 and tell me about any conditions.
quote:
quote:
He will remove grace from their lives.
Can one be saved without grace?
Depends what you mean by "saved", since it is used of eternal salvation as well as physical deliverance from peril. All of the passages where God promises to leave or forsake the kings who leave or forsake Him deal with physical deliverance from peril, not eternal salvation.
quote:
quote:
But Heb 13:5 is unconditional.
Heb 13:5 was a reminder of what God promised Israel in the OT. In the OT it was conditional, thus in Hebrews it is conditional. Heb 13:5 is NOT a new promise.
Since Heb 13:5 is a direct quote of Moses in Deut 31:6,8, I invite you to find the conditions that Moses included in Deut 31.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Why do you keep claiming that believing on the Lord is all that is necessary to be saved?
Because Paul's answer to the jailer was just that simple and clear. Do you disagree with Paul's answer?
Nope. But, Paul's answer was more than verse 31.
OK, please tell me where I can find and read what else Paul told the jailer to do to be saved.
quote:
quote:
quote:
How can one believe on the Lord without understanding who He is, what He did and what He is going to do?
It should be obvious from the passage that Paul and Silas' praying and singing in the jail also landed on the jailer's ears.
What is obvious is that the jailer was asleep and only awakened by the earthquake. It is not obvious that he heard their prayers and worship -- that is an assumption.
You just said it was "obvious" that the jailer was asleep. Who gave you the right to make that assumption then turn around and tell me I'm making one?
quote:
It is also not obvious that their prayers and worship consisted of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ -- that is another assumption.
OK, so Paul the greatest evangelist of all time, wasn't communicating the gospel while in jail. Isn't that quite the assumption?
What was Paul's "style" while under guard? I think Phil 1:13 is instructive:
so that my imprisonment in the cause of Christ has become well known throughout the whole praetorian guard and to everyone else
So, you assume Paul's praying and singing was not evangelical in that jail. Sure.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Does faith not come by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17)? If so, then verse 32 plays an even bigger role in being saved than does verse 31.
OK, so you disagree with Paul's answer.
No, I disagree with you; I agree with Paul's complete answer in the passage.
Specifically, in v.31 Paul's answer was complete, because that's what his words mean. "believe and be saved". What else is there in that answer needed to be saved.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 8:47:14 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since he said "believe and be saved", what else is there to do? What did he leave out?
Well, he obviously left out something or he wouldn't have needed to speak the word of the Lord to the jailer again as well as to his household.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 8:50:48 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What he said in v.31 was complete. To claim otherwise simply rejects what he told the jailer. If more was involved, what he said in v.31 wasn't complete, and therefore, not honest. Apparently what he said in verse 31 was not complete because he said more in verse 32. However, I do not in any way reject what Paul told the jailer in verse 31, nor do I think Paul was being dishonest simply by giving the jailer the key condition to being saved.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 8:59:14 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5279
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
The discussion has centered around Paul's answer to the jailer, who asked Paul a very direct and straightforward question: "what must I do to be saved?" And Paul answered just as direct and straightforward, with: "believe (completed action) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Indeed, FG, what anyone must do to be saved at that moment is to believe at that moment! How could the jailer have known about discipleship, and obedience, and growth in grace before he was converted? He asked the only question which he could comprehend at his then spiritual state and Paul answered him with the only response which the jailer could comprehend at his then spiritual state. "Right at this moment you must believe in order to be saved at this moment".
As WBN pointed out, this thread is about OSAS, not the initial requirement for salvation. The question we all must ask after conversion is how to we keep up the wonderful new relationship with our Lord and Savior. And the NT is abundantly clearly from the widespread use of the present participle form of pisteo associated with salvation that we have an ongoing commitment to believing in Christ. Of course, this is ALWAYS by the grace and power of God, not by our own carnal efforts. FG, surely a Bible scholar of your caliber can see the difference between one verse (Acts 16:31) in the context of an individual seeking initial salvation compared to the overwhelming NT doctrine which demonstrates the need for trust and obedience in maintaining our faith after conversion.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2009 9:31:20 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 10388
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since he said "believe and be saved", what else is there to do? What did he leave out?
Well, he obviously left out something or he wouldn't have needed to speak the word of the Lord to the jailer again as well as to his household.
Well, I've already explained what he said in v.32, but you still reject the completeness of v.31. Paul told him what to do to be saved, period. v.32 has been explained.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
