RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Eutychus -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/3/2009 5:37:45 PM)

quote:

But my belief is that salvation can purposely and intentionally be given back to God who gave it in the first place.

That makes redemption sound like a pair of shoes given to you on your birthday that you decided aren't to your liking. (BTW, where is the heavenly customer service located?)

Perhaps, that's why we have different perspectives. As one born into new spiritual life, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, and a joint heir with Christ by grace through faith from God, it's beyond my comprehension that we could hand salvation back like an out of style tie or ugly argyle socks.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/3/2009 5:57:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

But my belief is that salvation can purposely and intentionally be given back to God who gave it in the first place.

That makes redemption sound like a pair of shoes given to you on your birthday that you decided aren't to your liking. (BTW, where is the heavenly customer service located?)

Perhaps, that's why we have different perspectives. As one born into new spiritual life, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, and a joint heir with Christ by grace through faith from God, it's beyond my comprehension that we could hand salvation back like an out of style tie or ugly argyle socks.

I agree. It is hard to comprehend why anyone would want to do that. Yet there are many warnings in scripture that seem to indicate that it is possible. I don't know, maybe it was more likely when those words were written that it is today.



tdd1975 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/3/2009 7:58:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

Greatdivide,
quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

But my belief is that salvation can purposely and intentionally be given back to God who gave it in the first place.

That makes redemption sound like a pair of shoes given to you on your birthday that you decided aren't to your liking. (BTW, where is the heavenly customer service located?)

Perhaps, that's why we have different perspectives. As one born into new spiritual life, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, and a joint heir with Christ by grace through faith from God, it's beyond my comprehension that we could hand salvation back like an out of style tie or ugly argyle socks.

I agree. It is hard to comprehend why anyone would want to do that. Yet there are many warnings in scripture that seem to indicate that it is possible. I don't know, maybe it was more likely when those words were written that it is today.


Too many of the warning verses seem to indicate that things would be worse in later times rather than better for that to be true.

Jud 1:18-21 KJV How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. (19) These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. (20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, (21) Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/3/2009 9:16:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist
...Those who believe that you can lose your Salvation by backsliding and not living up to the standard of a good and holy life are those who believe that we are saved by our good works and by being good and righteous in ourselves.

No.
Not me personally, anyway. I'm well acquainted with a genuine salvation by grace.

The argument isn't about losing salvation because you sin in weakness. It's about losing salvation through sin that represents a rejection of God's declaration of righteousness given to us in Jesus Christ. I get the feelling from your post you don't distinguish between our daily struggle with the flesh and the outright rejection of the forgiveness of God. We see the difference in the Galatians.




quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist
Now let's take a look at the scriptures to see which of these 2 fields of thought are more scripturally sound.

First of all, salvation is all about forgivness of sins. Jesus died for our sins and took our punishment for us so that we wouldn't have to be punished for our own sins. Agreed?

Without question.




quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist
Now let's look at the very words of Jesus in the Gospels. "Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)

Here Jesus is saying that once you hear the Gospel and believe that Jesus is the only begotton Son Of God (that God sent Him) then you have everlasting life. You are automatically passed from death unto life.

So far so good.




quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist
...So then the question now becomes, can you lose the Life once you have Him? Can you be just as unforgiven for your sins as you were once forgiven? Can you lose your Salvation once you have it? Can you go back to being an unforgiven dead person after having all your sins forgiven and eternal life given to you as a free gift?

Let's see what Jesus has to say on the subject. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37) Here Jesus is saying that once you come to Him and recieve His free gift of eternal life He will not for any reason whatsoever cast you out. It seems to me that this can pretty much be interpreted as meaning that you can't lose your Salvation once you have it.

The implication we can't ignore from scripture is that Christ will not cast anyone out against their own sincere desire to stay in Him. The people of God were once at the mercy of whatever fallible, weak High Priest was in office at any one time.

All of Israel was dependant on the successful performance of the required duties of the High Priest. Wow! If that ain't scary when you think about the likes of Eli and his sons representing you before God. The imperfect priesthood the people of God were once dependant on is what makes the sureness of Jesus's ministry meaningful in these passages. There is no risk whatsoever that you will not be accepted by God because of a failure on Jesus's part. That's an element of security we don't really understand and appreciate much in the church. But it's a necessary one to know what it means to be eternally secure in Christ.

Praise Him forever.


I have to run. I'll be back.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/3/2009 11:56:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I agree. It is hard to comprehend why anyone would want to do that. Yet there are many warnings in scripture that seem to indicate that it is possible. I don't know, maybe it was more likely when those words were written that it is today.


Too many of the warning verses seem to indicate that things would be worse in later times rather than better for that to be true.

That could be true. I simply meant that since most of the new believers in the early church had come out of Judaism the temptation was greater then to go back to that rather than suffer the persecutions of being a Christian. The purpose of the entire book of Hebrews, for instance, is to try to convince Jewish believers that Christ is better than any Judaic system the could forsake Christ for and go back to. If it was impossible for them to do that then the book of Hebrews is an exercise in futility.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/4/2009 9:44:59 AM)

quote:

The purpose of the entire book of Hebrews, for instance, is to try to convince Jewish believers that Christ is better than any Judaic system the could forsake Christ for and go back to. If it was impossible for them to do that then the book of Hebrews is an exercise in futility.

Ditto for the Book of Galatians.

I think the example of the Hebrew and Galatian Churches emphasizes the difference between 'just sinning' in human weakness, and the underlying sin of rejecting the forgiveness of Christ outright, trampling it underfoot as worthless through a willing and purposeful decision to not rely on it anymore.

That's how I understand this. If those who wonder about the security of their salvation sin as the result of the day to day struggles common to the growing, maturing, and sincere believer relying on Christ's forgiveness, High Priest Jesus has them covered, Hallelujah! But if their sin is the result of a turning away and rejection of the grace we have in Jesus Christ then they might not be as secure in Christ as they think. In which case "Christ will be of no value to you at all" (Gal. 5:2) which is what Paul said to the apparently Spirit-filled church at Galatia (Gal. 3:2-4).



tdd1975 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/4/2009 12:18:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake

quote:

The purpose of the entire book of Hebrews, for instance, is to try to convince Jewish believers that Christ is better than any Judaic system the could forsake Christ for and go back to. If it was impossible for them to do that then the book of Hebrews is an exercise in futility.

Ditto for the Book of Galatians.

I think the example of the Hebrew and Galatian Churches emphasizes the difference between 'just sinning' in human weakness, and the underlying sin of rejecting the forgiveness of Christ outright, trampling it underfoot as worthless through a willing and purposeful decision to not rely on it anymore.

That's how I understand this. If those who wonder about the security of their salvation sin as the result of the day to day struggles common to the growing, maturing, and sincere believer relying on Christ's forgiveness, High Priest Jesus has them covered, Hallelujah! But if their sin is the result of a turning away and rejection of the grace we have in Jesus Christ then they might not be as secure in Christ as they think. In which case "Christ will be of no value to you at all" (Gal. 5:2) which is what Paul said to the apparently Spirit-filled church at Galatia (Gal. 3:2-4).


While I believe firmly in the security of believers and while we may not agree on all the particulars, I am with you Nick. There is way to much “healing the wound lightly” and proclaiming “peace, peace” when there is no real peace going on today (Jer 6:14). People giving people assurance while they walk after the flesh is a dangerous business.

Like I said, while we may not agree on all the particulars, I believe your heart is in the right place.

Keep sounding the alarm brother.



Eutychus -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/4/2009 12:50:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
That could be true. I simply meant that since most of the new believers in the early church had come out of Judaism the temptation was greater then to go back to that rather than suffer the persecutions of being a Christian. The purpose of the entire book of Hebrews, for instance, is to try to convince Jewish believers that Christ is better than any Judaic system the could forsake Christ for and go back to. If it was impossible for them to do that then the book of Hebrews is an exercise in futility.

I read Hebrews to be a warning about trying to complete in the flesh that which was begun by grace through faith in Christ. If it has a modern application, it would, IMO, be a warning against buying into the notion that our security in Christ is dependent on our keeping and doing and living a particular way - IOW, the Arminian POV on conditional security.



Eutychus -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/4/2009 12:53:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975
...People giving people assurance while they walk after the flesh is a dangerous business...

I not only agree, I also think that those who would teach such a thing are heretics and tools of the enemy and anyone who believes they can live such a life is evidence to me that they have not been born again.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/4/2009 2:59:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

I read Hebrews to be a warning about trying to complete in the flesh that which was begun by grace through faith in Christ. If it has a modern application, it would, IMO, be a warning against buying into the notion that our security in Christ is dependent on our keeping and doing and living a particular way - IOW, the Arminian POV on conditional security.


Well we differ then. I agree with the author of the introduction to Hebrews in my Bible who says, "Jewish Christians . . . were in danger of apostasy from Christ back to Moses. This condition of apostasy was an immediate danger (2:1), based upon unbelief (3:12), conduct (5:13, 14), neglect of public worship (10:25), weakness in prayer (12:12), instability in doctrine (13:9), refusal to teach others (5:12), and neglect of the Scriptures (2:1)

"To forestall such a development, the author of Hebrews stressed the superiority of Christ to show the inferiority of Judaism. Three concepts are expressed. The first is exhortation (13:22); the second is a series of warnings, five in number (2:1-4; 3:7-19; 6:4-12; 10:26-31; 12:15-17); and the third is consolation or assurance. On the basis of these concepts, the writer argues against the tendency toward apostasy."

As I said, if it was impossible for them to forsake Christ and return to Judaism, then writing Hebrews was completely unnecessary.



Mannamuncher -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/4/2009 7:45:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

But my belief is that salvation can purposely and intentionally be given back to God who gave it in the first place.

That makes redemption sound like a pair of shoes given to you on your birthday that you decided aren't to your liking. (BTW, where is the heavenly customer service located?)

Perhaps, that's why we have different perspectives. As one born into new spiritual life, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, and a joint heir with Christ by grace through faith from God, it's beyond my comprehension that we could hand salvation back like an out of style tie or ugly argyle socks.

Exactly, salvation is non-returnable !!!

Nothing can separate us from the love of God !!![:D]



Nick_Drake -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/5/2009 8:57:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975
While I believe firmly in the security of believers and while we may not agree on all the particulars, I am with you Nick. There is way to much “healing the wound lightly” and proclaiming “peace, peace” when there is no real peace going on today (Jer 6:14). People giving people assurance while they walk after the flesh is a dangerous business.

Like I said, while we may not agree on all the particulars, I believe your heart is in the right place.

Keep sounding the alarm brother.

I appreciate that very much. Thank you.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/5/2009 9:19:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

But my belief is that salvation can purposely and intentionally be given back to God who gave it in the first place.

That makes redemption sound like a pair of shoes given to you on your birthday that you decided aren't to your liking. (BTW, where is the heavenly customer service located?)

Perhaps, that's why we have different perspectives. As one born into new spiritual life, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, and a joint heir with Christ by grace through faith from God, it's beyond my comprehension that we could hand salvation back like an out of style tie or ugly argyle socks.

Exactly, salvation is non-returnable !!!

I think you kind of missed his point.

What he's saying, if I understand correctly, is it's unthinkable to him that a truly born again person would value their salvation the same way they would a tie or a pair of socks that they could just dispose of it, or trade it for something else. It's beyond my comprehension, too. Can only untested, unconvinced 'believers' do that?




quote:

ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Nothing can separate us from the love of God !!![:D]

Apparently circumcision can.



wordtheology -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (9/6/2009 5:17:24 PM)

Hebrews 10: 23 does a good job of summarizing this subject. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. NASB

www.wordtheology



eden1234 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/7/2009 12:48:47 AM)

nowhere in the bible does it say that Gods people can not choose to turn their backs on him and in fact Gods people did in fact turn their backs on him deuteronomy 31:19 and romans chapter1



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/7/2009 8:47:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eden1234

nowhere in the bible does it say that Gods people can not choose to turn their backs on him and in fact Gods people did in fact turn their backs on him deuteronomy 31:19 and romans chapter1

Not sure how Deuteronomy 31:19 says what you're saying. Nevertheless, if the people did turn their backs on God does that mean that ceased being His people? If New Testament believers turn their backs on God, does that mean they cease being saved?



bob97 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/8/2009 10:49:02 AM)

I wonder how one can remove his name from the Book of Life if that name was written there before the foundation of the world?

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Does the bible tell us anywhere that we can undo what God has accomplished? Seems to me if that were the case then we would in fact be gods...I doubt that!

In Messiah,

Bob



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/8/2009 12:38:32 PM)

I don't know what book Moses was talking about in Exodus 32:32-33, but it appears possible for names to be blotted out of it, whatever it is. And according to Deuteronomy 29:20 the Lord can blot out one's name from under heaven, whatever that means. Also Psalm 69:28 seems to imply that it's possible to be blotted out of the book of life when it says, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living."

Certainly we cannot undo what God has accomplished, but He can!



bob97 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/8/2009 2:28:39 PM)

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There appear to be several books, The Mishnah, the core text of Judaism's oral Torah, contains the first known reference to Rosh Hashanah as the "day of judgment." In the Talmud tractate on Rosh Hashanah it states that three books of account are opened on Rosh Hashanah, wherein the fate of the wicked, the righteous, and those of an intermediate class are recorded. The names of the righteous are immediately inscribed in the book of life, and they are sealed "to live." The middle class are allowed a respite of ten days, until Yom Kippur, to repent and become righteous; the wicked are "blotted out of the book of the living.

I’ve heard of a book of the living and when you die you name is blotted out…I will have to do a little back tracking and see what I have. Any way as I remember that is what Moses was talking about.

In Messiah,

Bob



jjbird -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/8/2009 3:04:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

But my belief is that salvation can purposely and intentionally be given back to God who gave it in the first place.

That makes redemption sound like a pair of shoes given to you on your birthday that you decided aren't to your liking. (BTW, where is the heavenly customer service located?)

Perhaps, that's why we have different perspectives. As one born into new spiritual life, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, and a joint heir with Christ by grace through faith from God, it's beyond my comprehension that we could hand salvation back like an out of style tie or ugly argyle socks.

Exactly, salvation is non-returnable !!!

Nothing can separate us from the love of God !!![:D]



God loves those who are unsaved too, does that mean that are automatically saved because they are unseparated from God's love? Of course not.

God's love for us and the salvation he offers are two completely different things.

God's love is unconditional.

Salvation from God is conditional.

There are conditions to accepting the gift.



cgl1023 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/14/2009 3:49:26 PM)

I have read/scanned the last five pages of this 218 page discussion. I may not be very far along in this discussion and have not had in-depth exposure to the questions being discussed so I would like to ask the reader's indulgence with me in asking questions of this topic.

--------------

Q1: Do the other branches of Christianity struggle with the question of 'Salvation and Eternal Security' the way the Protestants do? The branches I am familiar with are the Eastern Church, the Roman Catholic Church and sects that are essentially ethnic, ie, Jewish, Egytian, Indian and others which have long, unbroken traditions.

Q2: I am only familiar with this question arising after the Reformation. Is this truly a post-Reformation issue?

Q3: What was the view of the early Christians -- we'll say up to the 300ad, before the Roman empire became officially Christian? In reading history, one gets the idea that these Christians were very devout believers, undaunted by the prospect of severe persecution and martyrdon that had occurred repeatedly in the Roman Empire.



jjbird -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/14/2009 10:45:11 PM)

Hebrews 10:26-31
It is possible, through deliberately rejecting the sacrifice of Christ, to lose one's salvation. Though the passage is emphatically clear, some insist it applies only to non-Christians, or unsaved churchgoers! But verse 29 ('the blood of the covenant that sanctified him') and verse 30 ("The Lord will judge his people") show that the writer has in mind the covenant people -- people already saved.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible to bring certain people back to repentance: those who have passed the point of no return, or "fallen away." The phrase "crucifying the Son of God all over again" strongly implies that they have already shared in Jesus' death and resurrection. (Hebrews 6:8-9 continues the thought.)

Other verses in Hebrews to consider: 2:1-3, 3:12-14, 4:1, 4:11, 6:11-12, 10:36, 12:14-15, and 13:4.

Romans 8:28-39
Nothing can separate us from the love of God, but it is our responsibility to "keep ourselves in God's love" (Jude 21). We have free will; many advocates of 'Once saved, always saved' deny this.

John 10:28-29
Although this passage is often cited as proof of the impossibility of apostasy, it does not rule out turning one's back on God. (See Luke 9:62, e.g.) It is only impossible for external powers to drag away a disciple against his will.

2 Peter 2:20-22
This passage clinches the argument. These people have "escaped the corruption of the world," which is possible only by participating in the divine nature (1:4). The corruption of the world is vividly symbolized by vomit and mud. It is tortuous to argue that the "washing" applies to a non-Christian.



Eutychus -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/15/2009 3:41:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjbird
...2 Peter 2:20-22
This passage clinches the argument. These people have "escaped the corruption of the world," which is possible only by participating in the divine nature (1:4). The corruption of the world is vividly symbolized by vomit and mud. It is tortuous to argue that the "washing" applies to a non-Christian.

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the dog & pig.

The dog returned to its vomit and the washed pig to the mud for the same reason: they were exposed to the message and participated with the redeemed but their nature remained exactly as it was when they encountered truth and righteousness. The pig's sin was not washed but its outward appearance by taking on the outward appearance of the redeemed. When it missed its mud enough, it followed its unchanged nature back to the mire.

Jesus gave a similar metaphor in His parable of the Wheat and Tares. The tares were mixed in with the wheat and was, on casual observation, indistinguishable from the wheat. But they could not produce the fruit of wheat because they were never wheat.



jjbird -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/15/2009 8:42:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjbird
...2 Peter 2:20-22
This passage clinches the argument. These people have "escaped the corruption of the world," which is possible only by participating in the divine nature (1:4). The corruption of the world is vividly symbolized by vomit and mud. It is tortuous to argue that the "washing" applies to a non-Christian.

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the dog & pig.

The dog returned to its vomit and the washed pig to the mud for the same reason: they were exposed to the message and participated with the redeemed but their nature remained exactly as it was when they encountered truth and righteousness. The pig's sin was not washed but its outward appearance by taking on the outward appearance of the redeemed. When it missed its mud enough, it followed its unchanged nature back to the mire.

Jesus gave a similar metaphor in His parable of the Wheat and Tares. The tares were mixed in with the wheat and was, on casual observation, indistinguishable from the wheat. But they could not produce the fruit of wheat because they were never wheat.



Your conclusions makes no sense in light of Peter's wording.

Peter says "they escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!" That can only be done when one becomes a christian.





It also says they knew Jesus



Eutychus -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/16/2009 9:25:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjbird
It also says they knew Jesus

So did Judas. So do the demons, and they tremble. And just like the dog, the pig, and the tare, neither Judas nor the demons had their natures changed.

John goes so far as to say that such left us because they were never a part of us and that their leaving is proof they were not one of us.



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